Dangerous Doctrins

[parousia70]

The Greek word used here is "oras," which literally means "hour." So the time of testing is called an hour. This is a well known and often used (both in scripture and in common parlance) expression for a short period of time.

You are asking for trouble when you try to literalize biblical time statements that your theology depends on being elastic and meaningless.

Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

1 John 2:18

But go ahead, explain to us how John uses "Hour" above to mean a short period of time.

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

i got a bad feeling all hell is going to bust loose during the NATO Summit. They have everything lined up already. Laws have just been passed here recently where they can declare marshal law,and they have fema camps all over the place...to where they will be shipping people when the civil uproars hits the fan. Because the dollar is going to collapse, and there is going to be a event here on American soil that is going to be so horrific it's going to make 9-11 look like a sunday afternoon picnic at the park. All planned out and ready for the day by our wicked government.Who are nothing but paid off puppets of the world elite bankers,and the Federal Reserve!! It's coming before this year is over. I may be wrong...i but i have a very bad feeling that it isn't.

 

[NGC 6712]

i got a bad feeling all hell is going to bust loose during the NATO Summit. They have everything lined up already. Laws have just been passed here recently where they can declare marshal law,and they have fema camps all over the place...to where they will be shipping people when the civil uproars hits the fan. Because the dollar is going to collapse, and there is going to be a event here on American soil that is going to be so horrific it's going to make 9-11 look like a sunday afternoon picnic at the park. All planned out and ready for the day by our wicked government.Who are nothing but paid off puppets of the world elite bankers,and the Federal Reserve!! It's coming before this year is over. I may be wrong...i but i have a very bad feeling that it isn't.

Yet more doom and gloom. The dollar isn't going to collapse, martial law was always able to be utilised (it has been in the US before), no new laws were required. I'll bet you my life savings that things are basically the same next year as this. Nothing like a conspiracy reference to the Federal Reserve and "world elite bankers' to rile up the gullible.

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

I live in fundamentalist alley, and the exposure to their doctrins have continued to disturb me to no end.

I'm a fundy, but does that make me dangerous? I dont think you can lump all that dodgy doctrine behaviour under fundamentalism. A fundy like me believes that the bible is the word of God, and thats it.
Take Genesis and the Garden of Eden... I believe that there really was an original Adam and Eve, but i say that the trees mentioned are symbols for something else.. the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, is a symbol for fallen angels, the fruit of that tree is another symbol. The serpent wasnt a talking snake, but was a fallen angel, the devil who is a reptilian form cherub.
A fundy like me believes that the theory of evolution is a satanic lie, which was designed to destroy Christianity, which it has done, because it destroys the whole point of restoration from the fall.
I dont actually like the american style protestantism, with long sermons and nothing else, no rituals or sacriments, i am drawn to a more middle ground Christanity such as anglicanism, which tries to keep some of the ancient traditions of the church, and retains the importance of the communion ritual.
If a saint has a genuine gift of healing, then the proof is that he or she actually gets proven results and gets people healed.
I dont think theres much can be done about the decline of Christianity in the West, it is due to a general disbelief, which seems to have started with Copernicus and the false claim of heliocentrism, something that the protestants never challenged, and they still go along with heliocentrism, as if it was ever proven.
I think that heretics like Todd Bently give Christianity a bad name. Why can't people see what's going on? They never watch or read anything critical of heretics.

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

I live in fundamentalist alley, and the exposure to their doctrins have continued to disturb me to no end.

I'm a fundy, but does that make me dangerous? I dont think you can lump all that dodgy doctrine behaviour under fundamentalism. A fundy like me believes that the bible is the word of God, and thats it.
Take Genesis and the Garden of Eden... I believe that there really was an original Adam and Eve, but i say that the trees mentioned are symbols for something else.. the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, is a symbol for fallen angels, the fruit of that tree is another symbol. The serpent wasnt a talking snake, but was a fallen angel, the devil who is a reptilian form cherub.
A fundy like me believes that the theory of evolution is a satanic lie, which was designed to destroy Christianity, which it has done, because it destroys the whole point of restoration from the fall.
I dont actually like the american style protestantism, with long sermons and nothing else, no rituals or sacriments, i am drawn to a more middle ground Christanity such as anglicanism, which tries to keep some of the ancient traditions of the church, and retains the importance of the communion ritual.
If a saint has a genuine gift of healing, then the proof is that he or she actually gets proven results and gets people healed.
I dont think theres much can be done about the decline of Christianity in the West, it is due to a general disbelief, which seems to have started with Copernicus and the false claim of heliocentrism, something that the protestants never challenged, and they still go along with heliocentrism, as if it was ever proven.
I think that heretics like Todd Bently give Christianity a bad name. Why can't people see what's going on? They never watch or read anything critical of heretics.

Yeah...it all adds up to be the same ole Babylon{Confusion}. This seems to be the verse for the times:
-Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

 

[GabrielMyAngel]

I live in fundamentalist alley, and the exposure to their doctrins have continued to disturb me to no end.

I'm a fundy, but does that make me dangerous? I dont think you can lump all that dodgy doctrine behaviour under fundamentalism. A fundy like me believes that the bible is the word of God, and thats it.
Take Genesis and the Garden of Eden... I believe that there really was an original Adam and Eve, but i say that the trees mentioned are symbols for something else.. the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, is a symbol for fallen angels, the fruit of that tree is another symbol. The serpent wasnt a talking snake, but was a fallen angel, the devil who is a reptilian form cherub.
A fundy like me believes that the theory of evolution is a satanic lie, which was designed to destroy Christianity, which it has done, because it destroys the whole point of restoration from the fall.
I dont actually like the american style protestantism, with long sermons and nothing else, no rituals or sacriments, i am drawn to a more middle ground Christanity such as anglicanism, which tries to keep some of the ancient traditions of the church, and retains the importance of the communion ritual.
If a saint has a genuine gift of healing, then the proof is that he or she actually gets proven results and gets people healed.
I dont think theres much can be done about the decline of Christianity in the West, it is due to a general disbelief, which seems to have started with Copernicus and the false claim of heliocentrism, something that the protestants never challenged, and they still go along with heliocentrism, as if it was ever proven.
I think that heretics like Todd Bently give Christianity a bad name. Why can't people see what's going on? They never watch or read anything critical of heretics.

There are no mainstream christians including catholics that do not believe the bible is the word of God, we as Catholics have 7 books the protestants do not, yet they refuse to even look at them. Why not embrace the whole word, not just part of it guys. That doesn't make you a fundie. Your perspective along genesis as parts being merely symbolic has you not placed in mainstream, nor fundamentalistic interpretation of the bible, you claim that one to yourself exclusively and don't make it seem that it's the norm, nor correct, it's only an assumption you have made because you need to study more and have someone with knowledge guide you.

Fundies always embrace add on gospels, this is the point of this thread, the original manner of the term is not the same today as it was a while ago, thus the reason for the clarification here.

 

[NGC 6712]

A fundy like me believes that the theory of evolution is a satanic lie, which was designed to destroy Christianity, which it has done, because it destroys the whole point of restoration from the fall.

Rubbish.

I dont think theres much can be done about the decline of Christianity in the West, it is due to a general disbelief, which seems to have started with Copernicus and the false claim of heliocentrism, something that the protestants never challenged, and they still go along with heliocentrism, as if it was ever proven.

This quote is probably more embarrassing than the Holocaust denial nonsense you were mentioning the other day. Ignorance is one thing, abject silliness is beyond that.

 

[Jipsah]

There is absolutely not even one scripture that says that there is only one future coming of Christ.

Neither is there even one that says He won't be driving a Hyundai when He returns, but that's hardly reason to believe that He will be, is it?

It is true that it nowhere distinctly says He will come more than once.

Thank you.

The "contradictions" of which you speak only exist when viewed through your doctrinal presuppositions. Our Lord will return once, "to judge the quick and the dead".

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

There are no mainstream christians including catholics that do not believe the bible is the word of God, we as Catholics have 7 books the protestants do not, yet they refuse to even look at them. Why not embrace the whole word, not just part of it guys. That doesn't make you a fundie. Your perspective along genesis as parts being merely symbolic has you not placed in mainstream, nor fundamentalistic interpretation of the bible, you claim that one to yourself exclusively and don't make it seem that it's the norm, nor correct, it's only an assumption you have made because you need to study more and have someone with knowledge guide you.

Fundies always embrace add on gospels, this is the point of this thread, the original manner of the term is not the same today as it was a while ago, thus the reason for the clarification here.

I dont really understand what you are saying here. So what is a fundamentalist? I am sure i am correct despite people calling me ignorant and silly. I think that the Catholic Church was correct in trying to maintain the geocentric model of the universe, as i am sure that that model is correct, and if the rubbish-shouters did a little bit of investigation on the matter, they might realise their own ignorance.
The Catholic-Protestant divide has done damage and still continues to do damage. I dont believe in purgatory or indulgences, but on the other hand the protestants have replaced everything with a hour long sermon, usually shouted into an amplified sound system... it's just not for me and never was.
Where am i wrong? that needs clarification... the fruit of the tree in the garden of Eden is a symbol, and that's obvious to me now... it's a symbol of sin, and in Adam and Eve's case it was sexual sin... that wasn't explicitly revealed in the text.. but the result was shame.. and the fall from grace, which needed restoration through the death and resurrection of Jesus.
To accept evolution is to accept that there was no fall from grace, no original sin, and no need for Jesus. But then the world accepts evolution because we live in a fallen world... and it's not science, which is the usual responce to criticism of evolution (you are ignorant of the science).

 

[NGC 6712]

I think that the Catholic Church was correct in trying to maintain the geocentric model of the universe, as i am sure that that model is correct, and if the rubbish-shouters did a little bit of investigation on the matter, they might realise their own ignorance.

The only way someone can think that model is correct is through pure ignorance on the topic. And I think I have done a heck of a lot more research on that topic (and related ones) than you could possibly have done. To maintain a geocentric model is to be delusional.

 

[GabrielMyAngel]

A fundamentalist these days are those that follow gospels not taught by the apostles, they also omit gospels that they don't like. They create add on rules and procedures while ignoring what was embraced through tradition as well, literally they have formed a different church all together, this is what I mean along the modern interpretation of the term.

The tree of knowledge did exist, it was a real, living thing, clearly described as having form, not just symbolic. The fact it was there and what happened was the first sin in literalism, not symbolic for committing some other sin, but the first sin was eating of the tree. You cannot have the story be partially literal, and true, and partially not literal and merely symbolic, never in scripture does it intertwine two types of stories into one, it's always one or the other and is directly clarified the nature of each. When you pick apart an aspect, such as the tree, it then unravels the rest into being possibly symbolic and you are following a chain of errors. The example here, people could just as easily say Adam and eve were symbolic if the tree is, yet there is a genealogical record of them, it was kept to reiterate these as being real people and this being a story of literals.

Purgatory:

2 Maccabees 12

40 But when they found on each of the dead men, under their tunics, objects dedicated to the idols of Jamnia, which the Law prohibits to Jews, it became clear to everyone that this was why these men had lost their lives. 41 All then blessed the ways of the Lord, the upright judge who brings hidden things to light,


42 and gave themselves to prayer, begging that the sin committed might be completely forgiven. Next, the valiant Judas urged the soldiers to keep themselves free from all sin, having seen with their own eyes the effects of the sin of those who had fallen;


2 Timothy 1:16-18):

May the Lord show mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains. On the contrary, when he was in Rome, he searched hard for me until he found me. May the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! You know very well in how many ways he helped me in Ephesus.

Here are a couple of links should you opt to do some additional research or at least get your feet wet: http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2008/11/is-hebrews-1135-37-proof-for-inclusion.html
Shameless Popery: Prayers for the Dead: Memorial Day in 2 Maccabees

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[hiscosmicgoldfish]

The only way someone can think that model is correct is through pure ignorance on the topic. And I think I have done a heck of a lot more research on that topic (and related ones) than you could possibly have done. To maintain a geocentric model is to be delusional.

So have you read 'Galileo Was Wrong, The Scientific Case for Geocentrism by Robert A. Sungenis Ph.D. and Robert J. Bennett Ph.D? Because I have read it, and I understand as well. So i am not ignorant or delusional.

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

The only way someone can think that model is correct is through pure ignorance on the topic. And I think I have done a heck of a lot more research on that topic (and related ones) than you could possibly have done. To maintain a geocentric model is to be delusional.

Are you mistaking "geocentric" for "EGO"-centric??

 

[interpreter]

Most of the doctrines you discuss are indeed both new and dangerous. But the end times gospel and the rapture gospel, as you choose to call them, are very old, and denying them is dangerous.

Jesus never mentioned a rapture. It is a figment of Paul's imagination.
As for the end times Gospel, if you're talking about those who falsely teach that all of the Revelation will occur in seven years in our future, then I too reject it. It has been unfolding since 312AD when the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds, and Jesus came into power through St. Constantine who rode a white horse and conquered with a bow.

 

[NGC 6712]

Are you mistaking "geocentric" for "EGO"-centric??

Since I am a cosmologist I really do think I have done way more research/study on cosmological models and astronomy in general than he has.

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

Since I am a cosmologist I really do think I have done way more research/study on cosmological models and astronomy in general than he has.

It's all good bro. I really shouldn't have even said anything. So please forgive me...


Blessings...

 

[NGC 6712]

So have you read 'Galileo Was Wrong, The Scientific Case for Geocentrism by Robert A. Sungenis Ph.D. and Robert J. Bennett Ph.D? Because I have read it, and I understand as well. So i am not ignorant or delusional.

I have read the arguments (it's an insult to even call them that) in that book and seen Sungenis respond to critiques. Absolutely frightening the delusions that some people are under.

I also note Sungenis got his (cough cough) PhD from an online diploma mill located in Vanuatu - in fact that book was his (cough cough) "thesis". His background is religion not physics. His knowledge of physics is less than my knowledge of applied glass blowing. And I have never gone to a glass blowing factory in my life.

 

[zeke37]

Neither is there even one that says He won't be driving a Hyundai when He returns, but that's hardly reason to believe that He will be, is it?

Thank you.

The "contradictions" of which you speak only exist when viewed through your doctrinal presuppositions. Our Lord will return once, "to judge the quick and the dead".

likewise, if He is prophesied to come back a "second" time,
since a "third" is not ever mentioned, why does pre trib assume one exists?

 

[Knee V]

Jesus never mentioned a rapture. It is a figment of Paul's imagination.

That assumes that it was taught by Paul... if that's what you're saying.

 

[Bible2]

GabrielMyAngel said in post #1:

We have the "rapture gospel", which twists and distorts scripture to make it appear that we get two returns of Christ, that the time and day are predicable, and that we need not prepare for hard times ahead.

Are you referring to the mistaken pre-trib rapture idea? If so, it's indeed dangerous, for when no pre-trib rapture occurs, & pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the trib, they could think God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think God has cruelly broken his promise, that he's pulled the rug out from under them, that he cruelly lied to them & must now be laughing at their surprise & suffering (Prov. 1:26), so that in their rage they'll curse God & commit apostasy during the trib (Isa. 8:21-22, Mt. 24:9-13, 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Heb. 6:4-8, Jn. 15:6, 2 Tim. 2:12).

And even if they instead rightly think, "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking the rapture was supposed to be pre-trib. Satan hasn't defeated God, & God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they'd held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long trib that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of partial preterism, or full preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers less prepared mentally to endure the future trib). The Bible gives believers clear warning ahead of time about everything they're going to have to face during the future trib (Mk. 13:23, Rev. 1:3, 22:16), so they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Pet. 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Mt. 24:4-5,23-25, Rev. 13:13-18, 19:20), & so they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future trib with patience & faith unto the end (Mt. 24:9-13, Rev. 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4-6).

We have the "rapture gospel", which twists and distorts scripture to make it appear that we get two returns of Christ, that the time and day are predicable, and that we need not prepare for hard times ahead.

Re: "that the time and day are predicable", that isn't something the mistaken pre-trib idea supports, but the scriptures support it (so it isn't dangerous). For Mt. 24:36,42,44 is referring to Jesus' 2nd coming (Mt. 24:37,42,44), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the trib (Mt. 24:29-31). So in Mt. 24:42,44, Jesus could mean that only if believers don't watch (stay awake, spiritually) during the trib, the 2nd coming will happen at an hour they don't know/think not (cf. the if principle of Rev. 3:3b). In the immediate context of Mt. 24:42,44, Jesus suggests it's possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur & to watch for it (Mt. 24:43-44a, 1 Thes. 5:4). Also, Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Mt. 24:36), he doesn't say "of that day and hour no man will know". So it's possible at some point in the future some believers will come to know the date (as in the year, month, & day) of the 2nd coming before it happens. Also, if we mistakenly think Jesus can come today or tomorrow (as is sometimes claimed by the pre-trib & symbolicist views), then how can we also claim he'll come when nobody thinks he will (Mt 24:44)?

Also, compare the following: "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Mt. 24:36), "the things of God knoweth no man" (1 Cor. 2:11). If we claim the 1st verse means no man will ever know the date of the 2nd coming until it happens, then to be consistent we'd have to also claim the 2nd verse means no man, not even believers, can know the things of God until the 2nd coming. But who'd say that? For the Spirit can currently reveal to believers the things of God (1 Cor. 2:12-13), he can currently guide them into all truth & show them what'll happen in the future (Jn. 16:13), including the date of the 2nd coming. For, again, Jesus suggests it's possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur & to watch for it (Mt. 24:43-44a, 1 Thes. 5:4). Also, what Amos 3:7 says would include the 2nd coming: Surely God the Father won't send Jesus back without having 1st revealed to some believers the secret of the date of the 2nd coming. It could occur on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in a 3rd Jewish temple (Dan. 12:11-12, Rev. 16:15, Dan. 11:31,36, Mt. 24:15).