Dangerous Doctrins

[GabrielMyAngel]

Not that I at all take the word of "author unknown", no matter when the speech was penned. I italicized the points I wanted to make in the reply.[/qote]

Whether or not you "take" his words is inconsequential. These words were unquestionably written and widely circulated more than a thousand years before you claim this doctrine originated.

You are interpreting it to fit in with the pre-trib rapture, not at all looking at it objectively. It's also some old writing, there are many old writings, not all of them are considered to be scripture, as you have elevated it to be in this example.

This is simply an attempt to avoid what Irenaeus said. And it wholly fails to explain his words.

And I'm not avoiding anything, I'm reading the texts you wrote correctly, not slanted. You must use the proper vocabulary, plural's are not singulars, in this example.

Not so that is the very opposite of what he said.



This is nothing but imagination on your part. No scripture says that there will be a tremendous war in which we will take part. It says that at this time "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh." (revelation 19:20-21)

We are in the battle right here, right now, already! Do you think we are going to just stand by and spectate the final battle? Are we spectating now? Are we part of his army, or are we not? Are we part of his family, or are we not? Are we given glorified bodies to sit and loaf around in, or is there a deeper purpose for it?

You have just seen the conclusive proof that this is simply untrue. There are also at least three other teachers that mentioned a pre-tribulation rapture before 1800, but I did not bother with them, as the ones I cited are so much older.

Well, then lay them bare on this little forum, let's extract the data and analyze it.

In saying this, you simply demonstrate that you do not understand the rapture doctrine at all. After the rapture, God will again turn his attention to the nation of Israel. The prophecies are written for them and about them. These prophecies explicitly tell, not in dark parables but in plainly stated language, how they can tell when it is time to run, where to go when they run, and how many days to stay there. They also tell why they will have to run at this time, and detail the daily progress of the armies advancing upon Jerusalem.

Lay the scriptures out here, so they can be analyzed within their proper context, not pieced together to fit some false doctrin.

The fact that a doctrine has been perverted and twisted beyond recognition is not even evidence, much less proof, that there is anything wrong with the doctrine.

It's not resting at all well with me, trust me, I've tried to embrace it, but the more I've looked into it, and have observed others doing the same, the more it didn't fit, the more errors came up, the more "adjustment" to the original scriptures had to be addressed, the more rotten the fruits it produced. The tree is withered and it must be chopped down. I know, you promote it, it's a hard thing to have to question ones own beliefs, but you do want to believe because you have tested it, looked at it from all angles, studied the pro's and con's, and don't just take some ones word for it? I know,it's super popular, it's something that has a great deal of appeal, we have this get out of tribulation free card, or we are told that, but what if you are wrong, what if all of this is pushing you into areas that leaves you vulnerable?

Should I bombard you with writings outside of scripture and continue this debate forever? We don't have time for this, only point out scripture, within itself, not your slant or angle, and we'll have something to discuss without questioning some obscure author and what they meant in their writings.

 

[Biblewriter]

You are interpreting it to fit in with the pre-trib rapture, not at all looking at it objectively. It's also some old writing, there are many old writings, not all of them are considered to be scripture, as you have elevated it to be in this example.

None of them are scripture, whether considered so by some ignorant persons or not. My olny point in bringing these up was to prove that the rapture doctrine is not at all new.

And I'm not avoiding anything, I'm reading the texts you wrote correctly, not slanted. You must use the proper vocabulary, plural's are not singulars, in this example.


We are in the battle right here, right now, already! Do you think we are going to just stand by and spectate the final battle? Are we spectating now? Are we part of his army, or are we not? Are we part of his family, or are we not? Are we given glorified bodies to sit and loaf around in, or is there a deeper purpose for it?


Well, then lay them bare on this little forum, let's extract the data and analyze it.

I will do this in another thread, when I can get the time.

Lay the scriptures out here, so they can be analyzed within their proper context, not pieced together to fit some false doctrin.

I have laid them out in great detail in this forum, again and again. And the scriptures I have laid out are not interpretations of the meanings of symbolic statements. They are explicitly stated scriptures. And there are very many of them. As time becomes available, I will lay them out again in another thread.

It's not resting at all well with me, trust me, I've tried to embrace it, but the more I've looked into it, and have observed others doing the same, the more it didn't fit, the more errors came up, the more "adjustment" to the original scriptures had to be addressed, the more rotten the fruits it produced. The tree is withered and it must be chopped down. I know, you promote it, it's a hard thing to have to question ones own beliefs, but you do want to believe because you have tested it, looked at it from all angles, studied the pro's and con's, and don't just take some ones word for it? I know,it's super popular, it's something that has a great deal of appeal, we have this get out of tribulation free card, or we are told that, but what if you are wrong, what if all of this is pushing you into areas that leaves you vulnerable?

If I am wrong, then I will have to go through the tribulation. But I am certain I am not wrong. I have spent many years studying end time prophecy, And have considered every argument out there. And I find all the arguments for post trib wanting. They are all based on unfounded assumptions about the meanings of certain terms used in the scriptures.

Should I bombard you with writings outside of scripture and continue this debate forever? We don't have time for this, only point out scripture, within itself, not your slant or angle, and we'll have something to discuss without questioning some obscure author and what they meant in their writings.

I actually have very little interest in the writings of men. I studied the old writings because I did not believe the claims that my doctrine was new, and I found the same doctrines there. But when I quote them, I do not do so with even the slightest imagination that there is anything even remotely resembling authority in their writings. (Actually, I found many errors in them.) I quote them only for their historical value. They are indeed authoritative in regard to the question of how long a given doctrine has been around, but for no other matter.

 

[Biblewriter]

I see, so the reason for going in depth was to demonstrate how the texts are pre-tribulation in nature. However, both perspectives had been shared since antiquity, so the age of the doctrine isn't indicative of anything.

Actually, I agree. My only reason for going into this was the OP's attempt to disparage the rapture doctrine by pretending that it is new. I answered with undeniable proof that the doctrine is very old.

Scriptures speak of one elect,

Where?

and one tribulation period.

Where?

What is clear is how the elect is consistently placed within this period. Daniel 12:1 - at that time we are delivered, not before. Matthew 24:22, Mark 13:20 - for the sake of elect, the days of the tribulation are shortened.

But who are the elect?

Revelations 6:9-11, the fifth seal single handedly dismantles both pre-tribulation and pre-wrath raptures. Not only are the dead in Christ still dead, but shall remain so until the number of martyrs is complete.

This conclusively proves your point, unless these souls were those of people slain after the rapture has taken place.

Even if it is perceived that Christ will come back more than one time, it will not be in relation to a pre-tribulation rapture. There is also one gathering of the elect - as per Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27...and Luke 21:27-28

"Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory. But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

I find this promise blessed, for I see these things beginning to take place.

It is inescapable!
　
　

Yes, it is inescapable, providing you have correctly ascertained the meanings of the scriptures you cite.

 

[GabrielMyAngel]

If the rapture did exist, pre trib, it would be clearly spelled out, it would not take someone years of end of time prophesy study to figure it out. If it was indeed, in the scriptures after it takes years of careful research, the exact same thing would have been written about long ago. the piece you brought up, clearly does not support a pre trib rapture. You may think it does, but it doesn't, the same as when I tell you the sky is blue, you insist that it's green and we then go back and forth forever on the matter.

I have to have reason in order to debate with someone over something. There is no reason to your logic, nor logic to your reason. It's a game of seeing how one can find scraps of information in order to prove their point, when I'm not at all needing to dig, it's clearly written in scripture, that we will be taken up in the "end", not the middle, it's always the end.

If you are wrong, you have put your soul through needless peril, that is why I have to stress along the importance of looking at both sides in depth. The fact remains, if one seeks to find an answer to justify their cause, no matter what it is, from old writings, to scripture, they can find ways of doing so, but if you are to take it, in it's context, how it's laid out, from the time they were written, to whom they were written to and from who's pen it was, the Lord directed, you would indeed see, much of these so called end of times/tribulation prophesies are not at all even about the final end what so ever.

 

[Biblewriter]

If the rapture did exist, pre trib, it would be clearly spelled out, it would not take someone years of end of time prophesy study to figure it out. If it was indeed, in the scriptures after it takes years of careful research, the exact same thing would have been written about long ago. the piece you brought up, clearly does not support a pre trib rapture. You may think it does, but it doesn't, the same as when I tell you the sky is blue, you insist that it's green and we then go back and forth forever on the matter.

I have to have reason in order to debate with someone over something. There is no reason to your logic, nor logic to your reason. It's a game of seeing how one can find scraps of information in order to prove their point, when I'm not at all needing to dig, it's clearly written in scripture, that we will be taken up in the "end", not the middle, it's always the end.

If you are wrong, you have put your soul through needless peril, that is why I have to stress along the importance of looking at both sides in depth. The fact remains, if one seeks to find an answer to justify their cause, no matter what it is, from old writings, to scripture, they can find ways of doing so, but if you are to take it, in it's context, how it's laid out, from the time they were written, to whom they were written to and from who's pen it was, the Lord directed, you would indeed see, much of these so called end of times/tribulation prophesies are not at all even about the final end what so ever.

I agree that this is pointless for you will not listen to reason. but as to its being clearly spelled out in scripture,

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (Revelation 3:10)

 

[That Canadian Guy]

Actually, I agree. My only reason for going into this was the OP's attempt to disparage the rapture doctrine by pretending that it is new. I answered with undeniable proof that the doctrine is very old.

Where?Where?But who are the elect?This conclusively proves your point, unless these souls were those of people slain after the rapture has taken place.I find this promise blessed, for I see these things beginning to take place.
Yes, it is inescapable, providing you have correctly ascertained the meanings of the scriptures you cite.

2 quick points...

A) those beneath the altar are not those who have been slain during the tribulation, note they are martyrs - thus by implication they had died due to their testimony of Christ at the hands of persecutors. Not only that, but it seems fairly obvious that those beneath the altar have been in that state a long time, they are the collective of martyrs since the birth of the church. There really is no "tribulation saints" being refered to here. This is a theory built upon a theory.

B) Luke 21 is so exceedingly clear, it becomes impossible to further re-assert belief of a pre-tribulation or pre-wrath rapture once you have read and studied the text. Christ proves that the gathering of the elect spoken of in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 truly is the rapture event. The elect are still on earth - redemption draweth nigh, meaning it had not come yet, and it is going to come in yet a little while longer.

What do you think Biblewriter, is it not obvious enough?

 

[GabrielMyAngel]

I agree that this is pointless for you will not listen to reason. but as to its being clearly spelled out in scripture,

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (Revelation 3:10)

Ok, we have some actual scripture to talk about, wonderful!!!

Analyze the phrase "Keep thee", and it's been translated in your book to "take thee away from, rapture up", when we are to be kept from something, to me means we are shielded from it. It doesn't diminish what we are being shielded from, but clearly, he's standing in front of us, guarding us, "If we keep the word and his patience".....

Mary, she was kept from original sin, and all sin, In Catholic circles "and mine", all of her life, in protestant, up until Jesus was born. She was again, kept from something, shielded, and it's a common understanding among the believers, that we are indeed spared much of what the average person of the world faces, even more so, what we do endure, we do so not in a worldly manner, but in a Christ like manner, which is far different, far better!

We, the elect, will be ministering to the unbeliever, we will be protected while we do so, protected just as he has Isreal when they were complying with him. I know this personally, as a street minister, preaching in some rather hostile situations, that I'm fully protected by the Lord, I have absolutely zero fear of what any of the world can do to me, at these moments. It's a far different thing then being merely confident in ones own abilities, no matter how sharp and formidable, his is beyond comprehension, more....

We get to patience, and it's what we see around us, the carnage to the things of this world, now and then, that are just vile to the spirit. We see so much injustice, so much want, so much pain and suffering, and we grow impatient as to his return. Guess what guys, perhaps what is happening right now, is setting the stage for the end, certainly it's letting the average persons moral Guard down, but "which" end? As in, how many times has he intervened with a people that were in rebellion against him? How did he react then? With what I'm seeing going on the globe right now, he's allowing things to get worse, to shake us up a bit, to get us to go back to our roots.

But, the thing is, regardless if we finally get it, he still may use his own free will to step in entirely in a positive manner. He's shown that one in the past, so cannot be thrown out as happening in the future. I for one am seeing some great things of his, working in my life, he's masterfully and craftily established things, right down to the paint, itself, and worked out things that I can only account to be, a thousand miracles. I pray for this to be an indication of what he can do for the world, and I am wanting people to prepare for his hand to be shown, give him incentive for it to be shown in a merciful manner, not to be shown out of vengeance.... If one were to merely want him here to vanquish their foes, their prayer requests leave much to be desired, if that is all they pray about. We must always get back to the fact, our life is a brief whisper, all of humanity, all of civilization, a brief whisper compared to eternity.

So what if we have to endure hardship, testing and suffering, seriously, compared to everlasting bliss, not at all a comparison. Get out of tribulation free, gospel how ever it's spelled out, undermines the core basis and meaning behind what we should be supporting as Children of God. We don't want it to end sooner, that would mean less souls to be created and to love us, and the Lord.... Sadly, he has to cut the time short, and that is truly the tragedy, it also is a firm warning, one of a seriousness on the highest order, for those living in those times. It will be so complete, so absolutely absurd NOT to go along with the anti Christ, that ultimately, it may verily seem like it has won, for a time., and it's finale cut short, but not too short., Most of the people that claim the faith, will not be able to resist, the rest, will be on an extermination list, and they will have zero way out, less the elect and less, those chosen by God because they have passed the test, and he has use for them alive and in tact on this earth.

Do we opt to fight each other on being prepared, or do we combine forces. The worst thing that can happen, you end up with too many supplies and you now have to get rid of them, perhaps to the poor or something.... We must be prepared to dig in and be self sufficient. I'm big on making sure you are set up to grow a garden, and if you have a lot of land, be prepared to have it turn into tent city, so make sure you have some means to gather water without being on the grid with it.

Nothing major to prepare for physically beyond that, it's the spiritual preparation that's more paramount... and as pointed out in scripture.

 

[zeke37]

If I am wrong, then I will have to go through the tribulation. But I am certain I am not wrong. I have spent many years studying end time prophecy, And have considered every argument out there. And I find all the arguments for post trib wanting. They are all based on unfounded assumptions about the meanings of certain terms used in the scriptures.

did u resolve an opinion about Rev12:17 yet? Or Rev13?

remember that you state your belief, as believing in a total pre trib rapture, none left behind...

yet we have all these saints, and the keepers of the commandments and testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[1whirlwind]

If you are wrong, you have put your soul through needless peril, that is why I have to stress along the importance of looking at both sides in depth.

Well said Gabriel. We ourselves place ourselves in that position of "needless peril." We choose our outcome in this time of testing. He instructs us, over and over, to wait for Him and not fall into apostasy...deception/rapture.

Psalm 27:14 Wait on the LORD: be of good courage, and he shall strengthen thine heart: wait, I say, on the LORD.

Psalm 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.

Psalm 37:34 Wait on the LORD, and keep His way, and He shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.

Isaiah 64:4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what He hath prepared for him that waiteth for Him.

Daniel 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.


​

However, many don't heed the warning and instead...believe a lie, a lie of flying to heaven in a rapture.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Ezekiel 13:3,6 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing! (6) They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.

13:19-20 And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies? Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

.

​

 

[Biblewriter]

Ok, we have some actual scripture to talk about, wonderful!!!

Analyze the phrase "Keep thee", and it's been translated in your book to "take thee away from, rapture up", when we are to be kept from something, to me means we are shielded from it. It doesn't diminish what we are being shielded from, but clearly, he's standing in front of us, guarding us, "If we keep the word and his patience".....

You have skipped over the central essence of Revelation 3:10

In this passage, the faithful are promised that the Lord "will keep you out of the hour of testing."

They are not promised that they will be protected through that time, but that they will be kept out of that time. The Greek word that I have here rendered "out of" is ek. This Greek word means "from" or "out of." It most certainly does not mean "through."

But what are they promised to be kept "out of"? It is the time, not the place. The Greek word used here is "oras," which literally means "hour." So the time of testing is called an hour. This is a well known and often used (both in scripture and in common parlance) expression for a short period of time.

But what is this time? it is a time of testing. The Greek word I have rendered "testing" is perismos. This literally means "a putting to proof (by experiment [of good], experience [of evil], solicitation, discipline or provocation)." It also means adversity, but only by implication.

But this scripture also clearly states the reason for this "hour of testing." It is "to try them that dwell on the earth." That is why it "shall come upon the whole world." The Greek word I have rendered whole is holos, which literally means whole or all.

This scripture plainly says that a time "of testing" will come "upon the whole world." There has, up to this time, never been such a time come upon the whole world. Although there have been many periods of extreme trial or testing, none of them since the time of Noah have come upon every single part of the world.

But we must also notice that the purpose of this hour of testing is "to try them that dwell upon the earth." It is not to try the saints, nor to try the church. It is "to try them that dwell upon the earth. That is, it is to try all mankind.

But this passage clearly says that God's faithful will be kept "out of" that "hour." They are not promised to be protected through that time, but to be kept out of it.

If a time is coming upon the whole world, and some are promised to be kept out of that time, then they will have to be removed from the world before that time comes.

Mary, she was kept from original sin, and all sin, In Catholic circles "and mine", all of her life, in protestant, up until Jesus was born.

I am not aware of even one denomination, other than Catholic, that teaches that Mary was kept from original sin.

She was again, kept from something, shielded,

There is not a single scripture that even hints at such an idea.

and it's a common understanding among the believers, that we are indeed spared much of what the average person of the world faces, even more so, what we do endure, we do so not in a worldly manner, but in a Christ like manner, which is far different, far better!

We, the elect, will be ministering to the unbeliever, we will be protected while we do so, protected just as he has Isreal when they were complying with him. I know this personally, as a street minister, preaching in some rather hostile situations, that I'm fully protected by the Lord, I have absolutely zero fear of what any of the world can do to me, at these moments. It's a far different thing then being merely confident in ones own abilities, no matter how sharp and formidable, his is beyond comprehension, more....

I have experienced the same thing as an inner city pastor in Cleveland Ohio, where I lived for 13 years.

We get to patience, and it's what we see around us, the carnage to the things of this world, now and then, that are just vile to the spirit. We see so much injustice, so much want, so much pain and suffering, and we grow impatient as to his return. Guess what guys, perhaps what is happening right now, is setting the stage for the end, certainly it's letting the average persons moral Guard down, but "which" end? As in, how many times has he intervened with a people that were in rebellion against him? How did he react then? With what I'm seeing going on the globe right now, he's allowing things to get worse, to shake us up a bit, to get us to go back to our roots.

But, the thing is, regardless if we finally get it, he still may use his own free will to step in entirely in a positive manner. He's shown that one in the past, so cannot be thrown out as happening in the future. I for one am seeing some great things of his, working in my life, he's masterfully and craftily established things, right down to the paint, itself, and worked out things that I can only account to be, a thousand miracles. I pray for this to be an indication of what he can do for the world, and I am wanting people to prepare for his hand to be shown, give him incentive for it to be shown in a merciful manner, not to be shown out of vengeance.... If one were to merely want him here to vanquish their foes, their prayer requests leave much to be desired, if that is all they pray about. We must always get back to the fact, our life is a brief whisper, all of humanity, all of civilization, a brief whisper compared to eternity.

So what if we have to endure hardship, testing and suffering, seriously, compared to everlasting bliss, not at all a comparison. Get out of tribulation free, gospel how ever it's spelled out, undermines the core basis and meaning behind what we should be supporting as Children of God. We don't want it to end sooner, that would mean less souls to be created and to love us, and the Lord.... Sadly, he has to cut the time short, and that is truly the tragedy, it also is a firm warning, one of a seriousness on the highest order, for those living in those times. It will be so complete, so absolutely absurd NOT to go along with the anti Christ, that ultimately, it may verily seem like it has won, for a time., and it's finale cut short, but not too short., Most of the people that claim the faith, will not be able to resist, the rest, will be on an extermination list, and they will have zero way out, less the elect and less, those chosen by God because they have passed the test, and he has use for them alive and in tact on this earth.

Do we opt to fight each other on being prepared, or do we combine forces. The worst thing that can happen, you end up with too many supplies and you now have to get rid of them, perhaps to the poor or something.... We must be prepared to dig in and be self sufficient. I'm big on making sure you are set up to grow a garden, and if you have a lot of land, be prepared to have it turn into tent city, so make sure you have some means to gather water without being on the grid with it.

Nothing major to prepare for physically beyond that, it's the spiritual preparation that's more paramount... and as pointed out in scripture.

I agree with this part of your post.

 

[1whirlwind]

.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
​

How does He keep us from that hour? Through our "patience" of waiting for Him. He is "the Word" and those that "hast kept the word," are not tempted. They know the truth, for it is written, that the fake comes first...wait for the Savior.

Those that "dwell upon the earth" means they have not yet been translated to heaven, a translation that happens before we physically die. Many have already reached this stage and they now dwell in heaven as they walk the earth in flesh bodies. It is a spiritual translation to the Kingdom for His Kingdom is in us.....

Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son:


Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.



​

Those that are of the kingdom are heaven dwellers. Those not yet translated are earth dwellers....they don't yet see the truth and until they do....they are not kept from the hour of temptation through His Word for His Word is truth. All the world will see the deception but only those not yet of heaven, of His kingdom....will be tempted.

.​

 

[papaJP]

There is only one gospel and it is the Word of God His Holy Bible. Man wants to pick and choose what to believe and they are going to reap His judgment.

 

[GabrielMyAngel]

.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
​

How does He keep us from that hour? Through our "patience" of waiting for Him. He is "the Word" and those that "hast kept the word," are not tempted. They know the truth, for it is written, that the fake comes first...wait for the Savior.

Those that "dwell upon the earth" means they have not yet been translated to heaven, a translation that happens before we physically die. Many have already reached this stage and they now dwell in heaven as they walk the earth in flesh bodies. It is a spiritual translation to the Kingdom for His Kingdom is in us.....

Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son:


Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.



​

Those that are of the kingdom are heaven dwellers. Those not yet translated are earth dwellers....they don't yet see the truth and until they do....they are not kept from the hour of temptation through His Word for His Word is truth. All the world will see the deception but only those not yet of heaven, of His kingdom....will be tempted.

.​

sorry for the late response,, he keeps us from the hour because even though we linear reside through it, we are not conformed to it, ie. the prophets never conformed to the ways and teachings of the peoples they were to prophesy towards. We face terrible times, we will face even more soon, the hour is coming where we need to put into practice what we know, that it's no longer about simply stating words, we must do what we talk and preach about, the hour of our testing is come and it's now time to separate the wheat from the chaff.

 

[memoriesbymichelle]

Lately, I too, am concerned about following "Doctrines of men" rather than following the bible. To me, I ask God to reveal His word to me so that I can know the truth and not follow just what other men say the bible says. So IMO, when I read Matthew 24 where Jesus himself is asked by His disciples "what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?" The first thing Jesus says is "Take heed that no one deceives you." and then He goes on to explain what will take place. No where does He tell them "Don't worry you guys won't even be here by then" nor does He describe His secret rapture. Why not? Because that isn't what is going to happen. Why would Jesus say "But he who endures to the end shall be saved"?
Another thought is that all of the disciples died martyrs. Some were thrown in prision, and John the Baptist was beheaded. Why would we get a free pass? Why wouldn't we be tested to some degree? Even in the Garden of Eden, there was that one tree that Adam and Eve were not supposed to eat off of. Why was that necessary? It is necessary because anyone can say they believe, even the demons believe, but IF you are a true believer you would die for your faith in Christ. Not all will have to die for their faith, but there is always some kind of testing. God already knows who will accept and pass the test, it is not for His benefit. I think it is more for our benefit and that is JMO.
And BTW I used to believe in Pre-trib because that sounds alot better than going thru it, but when I prayed and asked for wisdom, and read just what Jesus said throughout scripture, IMO he never talks about 2 second comings. If there were 2 one would have to be the 3rd, they cannot both be the 2nd whether He steps foot on the earth or not it would still be the 2nd time coming and the next would still be the 3rd.

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

Most of the doctrines you discuss are indeed both new and dangerous. But the end times gospel and the rapture gospel, as you choose to call them, are very old, and denying them is dangerous.

Amen brother! Plus JESUS said:
-Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
-Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
-Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[AlasBabylon]

We need to wake up, get back to tradition, stop following these so called "new" ways, they aren't new, they are just a repeat of what has happened before, and we must do this sooner rather then later.

While I agree with much of what you posted, the term "tradition"
can mean different things to different people.

The term, tradition, reminds me of the "tradition of the elders"
which Christ condemned.


" So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus,

“Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders
instead of eating their food with ‘unclean’ hands?”

He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites;
as it is written:

' These people honor Me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from Me.
They worship Me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men. '

You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on
to the traditions of men.

And He said to them: “You have a fine way of setting aside
the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! "


Mark 7





.

 

[GabrielMyAngel]

AlasBabylon I am not at all saying to replace doctrin with tradition, but to embrace tradition that is supported by doctrin.

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

2 Thessalonians 2:15

 

[GabrielMyAngel]

Amen brother! Plus JESUS said:
-Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
-Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
-Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Nothing you have quoted supports a rapture of any kind. The error I see with assuming there is a rapture is that you are forced to reinterpret scripture to conform to it, not the other way around. Revelations was written for the believer, it was the last book about the last days, the very last days, and nowhere within it does it have the church raptured, it only states that the believers will be killed and persecuted. The only mention to a rapture is on the last day, after the dead rise, we who are still living will follow them, not the other way around.

2 Thessalonians 2:2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.

2 Thessalonians 3:6 In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching you received from us.

Titus 1:9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

Here is a common mistranslation:

Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.
Matthew 24:40

The pro-rapture point of view makes you think these that are taken away are being raptured, the reality is, the ones taken away are taken away by the evil one.

This supports what I'm saying here as well:

Matthew 24:39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

Nothing you have quoted supports a rapture of any kind. The error I see with assuming there is a rapture is that you are forced to reinterpret scripture to conform to it, not the other way around. Revelations was written for the believer, it was the last book about the last days, the very last days, and nowhere within it does it have the church raptured, it only states that the believers will be killed and persecuted. The only mention to a rapture is on the last day, after the dead rise, we who are still living will follow them, not the other way around.

2 Thessalonians 2:2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.

2 Thessalonians 3:6 In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching you received from us.

Titus 1:9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

Here is a common mistranslation:

Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.
Matthew 24:40

The pro-rapture point of view makes you think these that are taken away are being raptured, the reality is, the ones taken away are taken away by the evil one.

This supports what I'm saying here as well:

Matthew 24:39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Who said i said anything about a rapture?? I'm just showing that those who watch,and keep an eye on the signs of His second coming are blessed. i don't when the rapture will occur,probably on the last day?? Who knows... but i do have a pretty good idea that we are already in the last 7 years of this age. And that the anti-Christ will be revealed here very soon.

 

[GabrielMyAngel]

Certain tangible things have to be done, come into place, and be very clear before we can assume we are in the 7 years of tribulation. The times are bad, this is clear, but how long have they been this bad? When you look at timelines, they stretch typically hundreds, if not thousands of years before something culminates into requiring divine intervention along a global scale. We've only had it turn really bad barely 1/2 of a century, and even then, the past few years carrying the majority of the problems. There is a pattern throughout scripture where we deviate from God, allowed to wander a bit, reap the repercussions, and draw back to him, it's only when there is no chance of wandering back, where it's a permenant loop, such as the society with Sodom for example, that is the breaking point.

If you look to the number of Kings that were in power during biblical days, each generation turning away from God, spanning hundreds of years, and yet the world did not end, instead a king would rise up and set things straight again. I look forward to the time we pick up the pieces, now is a time of great re-evaluation of ones priorities and values. People are not complaining about not having a nicer house, car, clothes, etc. they are complaining about not having a house, car, clothes, etc. They are also realizing the "stuff" did not make them happy, not as long as it's above what they really needed. Some are also realizing that they wasted so much time micromanaging their "stuff", and the trend these days are looking into alternative lifestyles, towards a more spiritual perspective, and sadly, we of the traditional faith are not witnessing enough, that the doctrines of demons are what remain on the secular shelves, with only a small footprint for the true doctrines to reside upon. Our battle right now is more spiritual then ever, and this is a pivotal moment for those of the faithful to get people steered in the right direction before it's too late.