LDS D&C 129 (again): "material that hadn't necessarily been given in revelation form, er, format..."

[dzheremi]

I'm not sure if you noticed, but to get out of the angel problem, you said that Jacob wrestled with God. IOW God has a body of flesh and bone so he could actually wrestle with Jacob.

Moses the Patriarch encountered the Lord in the burning bush (which is a prefiguration of Christ). Is God therefore shrubbery?

 

[Peter1000]

Jacob wrestled with God, not an angel. Big difference. Your D&C only talks about angel encounters. Please try to stay on task and not go down rabbit holes.

As for the "work", a simple Bible word search for "angel" should be easy enough for you to do, right? That's what I did and did not see any references to a handshake test.

OK, lets see how Lot acted when he met his 2 angels, here it is:
Genesis 19:1-3 King James Version (KJV)
19 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.
3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.

Now that is interesting, Lot bowed and the angels did not stop him from bowing. Another interesting thing is that these 2 angels had bodies of flesh and bone and came into Lot's house and ate with him. Just interesting, I thought angels were spirits only. I guess JS was right again.

I have not seen a passage that tells us of a handshake, you may be right about that.

But bowing to an angel is apparently not completely prohibited by the bible. I only looked at the first few "angel" scriptures, but I am sure I would find some interesting angel encounters that are weirder than asking the angel to shake your hand.

 

[Peter1000]

Moses the Patriarch encountered the Lord in the burning bush (which is a prefiguration of Christ). Is God therefore shrubbery?

The way I have always thought about this is:
The Lord was "in" or "behind" the bush, but His glory did not burn up the bush. Somehow God shielded the bush from His glory.

But no, God is not shrubbery? Good try.

But Jacob tells us that he actually wrestled with God, and for a long time they wrestled, and at daybreak God finally said "let me go" That encounter is pretty hard to get around the idea that God has a body of flesh and bone, just like JS said.

 

[Peter1000]

Moses the Patriarch encountered the Lord in the burning bush (which is a prefiguration of Christ). Is God therefore shrubbery?

What do you mean by (this is a prefiguration of Christ)?

 

[BigDaddy4]

I'm not sure if you noticed, but to get out of the angel problem, you said that Jacob wrestled with God. IOW God has a body of flesh and bone so he could actually wrestle with Jacob.

I know it is a side issue, but this declaration is not what I would have expected. Good going to recognize that JS is right and God the Father does have a body of flesh and bone and can actually wrestle with mortals. Wow.

It's your angel problem, not mine, so I'm not trying to get out of anything. Silly statement. Your incorrect theology is showing, going straight from a man who identified as God to assuming it is God the Father. The passage makes no such distinction, so no, JS is not right.

 

[BigDaddy4]

OK, lets see how Lot acted when he met his 2 angels, here it is:
Genesis 19:1-3 King James Version (KJV)
19 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.
3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.

Now that is interesting, Lot bowed and the angels did not stop him from bowing. Another interesting thing is that these 2 angels had bodies of flesh and bone and came into Lot's house and ate with him. Just interesting, I thought angels were spirits only. I guess JS was right again.

I have not seen a passage that tells us of a handshake, you may be right about that.

But bowing to an angel is apparently not completely prohibited by the bible. I only looked at the first few "angel" scriptures, but I am sure I would find some interesting angel encounters that are weirder than asking the angel to shake your hand.

Good find. I will revise my distinction that bowing down in worship of an angel is prohibited (Rev 19:10, 22:8-9).

However, you should really stop your one dimensional thinking. God, Jesus, an angel, and/or any other heavenly body can do as God pleases and appear in any form according to God's will. Pillar of smoke/fire for Moses, a talking donkey, burning bush, walking through walls/doors (Jesus), etc. Expand your mind and know that God is God, and you are not nor ever will be!

 

[dzheremi]

What do you mean by (this is a prefiguration of Christ)?

In the traditional Church interpretation of this event, it is taken to be a preconfiguration of Christ, as Christ the Lord's inhabiting of the womb of the ever-virgin Theotokos St. Mary left her virginity intact, just as the bush which burnt with the presence of the Lord in it was not consumed by His presence. See: Russian Orthodox Kontakion for Sept. 4, for the feast of the icon "The Unburnt bush"; the Coptic Orthodox Kiahk hymn "The Burning Bush"; the patristic defenses of this idea in St. Gregory of Nyssa and the other Cappadocian fathers, in Western fathers like St. Hilary of Poitiers (in his treatise on the Trinity), etc.

 

[Peter1000]

It's your angel problem, not mine, so I'm not trying to get out of anything. Silly statement. Your incorrect theology is showing, going straight from a man who identified as God to assuming it is God the Father. The passage makes no such distinction, so no, JS is not right.

Remember it is you that corrected me and told me that Jacob was not wrestling with an angel, but with God. And remember you said it was a big difference.

So your answer to me is: the God that Jacob wrestled with was not God the Father. It is not a large jump of faith to go from 'God' to 'God the Father'. The passage says God, tell me what other God it could be than God the Father. Please tell me.

I now see your post 26. Our angel problem is OK.

 

[Peter1000]

In the traditional Church interpretation of this event, it is taken to be a preconfiguration of Christ, as Christ the Lord's inhabiting of the womb of the ever-virgin Theotokos St. Mary left her virginity intact, just as the bush which burnt with the presence of the Lord in it was not consumed by His presence. See: Russian Orthodox Kontakion for Sept. 4, for the feast of the icon "The Unburnt bush"; the Coptic Orthodox Kiahk hymn "The Burning Bush"; the patristic defenses of this idea in St. Gregory of Nyssa and the other Cappadocian fathers, in Western fathers like St. Hilary of Poitiers (in his treatise on the Trinity), etc.

At first hearing this, it seems rather far fetched. But then again after thinking about it, it is quite a beautiful sentiment. I suspect you have to leave it up to an Eastern Christian to think of it and spell it out for the rest of us. Isn't there a song that goes along with the thought?

 

[dzheremi]

A song?

There are some hymns (multiple), as I mentioned. It's a standard interpretation. I don't know that's it's particularly 'Eastern', because again it is found in western fathers like St. Hilary who wrote about the fire as a prefiguration of Christ in similar terms (this whole division into Eastern and Western is sort of artificial, since there are plenty of saints from the Latin-speaking empire honored in the East, and vice versa; 'East' and 'West' are after all referring two halves of the same [Roman] empire). I just don't know if Western Christians have any specific hymns that say so or not. They may.

Here's Russian Orthodox hymn, to show what I meant:

You showed Moses, O Christ God, / An image of your most pure Mother / In the bush that burned yet was not consumed, / For she herself was not consumed, / When she received in her womb the fire of divinity! / She remained incorrupt after her pure childbearing! / By her prayers, O greatly merciful One, / Deliver us from the flame of passions, / And preserve your people from all harm!

+++

It matches pretty well up to what is expressed in the Coptic Orthodox hymn also mentioned (even though the two churches have never been in communion), the refrain of which is:

The Burning Bush seen by Moses
The prophet in the wilderness
The fire inside it was aflame
But never consumed or injured it

The same with the Theotokos Mary
Carried the fire of divinity
Nine months in her holy body
Without blemishing her virginity

 

[Peter1000]

A song?

There are some hymns (multiple), as I mentioned. It's a standard interpretation. I don't know that's it's particularly 'Eastern', because again it is found in western fathers like St. Hilary who wrote about the fire as a prefiguration of Christ in similar terms (this whole division into Eastern and Western is sort of artificial, since there are plenty of saints from the Latin-speaking empire honored in the East, and vice versa; 'East' and 'West' are after all referring two halves of the same [Roman] empire). I just don't know if Western Christians have any specific hymns that say so or not. They may.

Here's Russian Orthodox hymn, to show what I meant:

You showed Moses, O Christ God, / An image of your most pure Mother / In the bush that burned yet was not consumed, / For she herself was not consumed, / When she received in her womb the fire of divinity! / She remained incorrupt after her pure childbearing! / By her prayers, O greatly merciful One, / Deliver us from the flame of passions, / And preserve your people from all harm!

+++

It matches pretty well up to what is expressed in the Coptic Orthodox hymn also mentioned (even though the two churches have never been in communion), the refrain of which is:

The Burning Bush seen by Moses
The prophet in the wilderness
The fire inside it was aflame
But never consumed or injured it

The same with the Theotokos Mary
Carried the fire of divinity
Nine months in her holy body
Without blemishing her virginity

Very beautiful, and I meant 'Eastern' as a compliment. To me they seem to have more passion and mysticism than the western churches. I have enjoyed many of your posts on the cultural aspects of your Christianity, and I look forward to visiting a OO church in Egypt, where I will be in Sept. of 2020.

 

[dzheremi]

Wow. Congratulations to you, Peter! That will surely be a very enriching experience, and hopefully safe. There is sometimes some violence in the Sinai Peninsula which borders Israel, but like everywhere else if you stay alert you should be fine. My grandmother, a non-Egyptian (Mexican) lady visited Egypt in 1989 when she was in her sixties with her sister of the same age, and they both had a very nice time. Her sister apparently picked up some Arabic either while there or before (my great aunt Elsie was always something of a mystery; incredibly, almost scarily smart but outwardly very quiet and somewhat confused due to her addiction to various medications and some past trauma), and so was able to translate and get them better deals at the souk/market when they shopped for souvenirs, but as Egypt's main source of income is tourism, you are likely to find many people who are able to speak English and other European languages. One of the ladies in my former congregation who did not really speak English (I think she secretly did, but was just shy/nervous about her ability to converse in the language, but I don't know) did speak Italian, of all things, which I suppose speaks to the cultural melting pot that Egypt has been for centuries.

May God bless your journey, and if you have any questions that are specific to attending a Coptic Orthodox liturgy (e.g. "What do I do when/if..."), don't hesitate to ask. The Copts are generally very friendly, so you should be able to find someone to help you at any service, though I can't guarantee that there won't be some pantomiming involved to try to get your question understood, if they don't speak English. Here in the USA, I have a Coptic friend in the Carolinas who proudly calls herself her church's "white people wrangler", because she is the one who abouna (that is the word we use in Arabic for priest) always designates to help any confused-looking visitors, since her English is flawless (she was born and grew up here, not in Egypt) and she is nice and friendly. I don't if our churches in Egypt would have "white people wranglers" or not (it probably depends on how much tourism there is in wherever you are going to be), but I'm sure they will try to help you in any way they can.