Wolseley
Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu
- Feb 5, 2002
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It looks like this thread has morphed into a discussion on the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Just a few points:
The Eucharist is closer to the Passover lamb than to the Levitical sacrificial system, and if you recall, all the Israelites ate of the Passover lamb, not just the priests.
Also, the Catholic concept of the Eucharist is that Christ is truly present in the elements of Communion: actually, physically, and sacramentally. Christ is not limited to the amount of flesh and blood which made up His physical body for the distribution to His faithful; He can extend these elements for as long as He wishes. Contrary to popular misconception, the Mass is a continuation of Calvary, not a re-sacrifice over and over every time, as is often heard. The Holy Eucharist, in the same way, is an extension, over all human time, of Christ's actual physical Body and Blood. This shouldn't be too hard to accept. If Christ can be concieved by the Holy Spirit, be born of a virgin, and rise from the dead after three days, He certainly ought to be able to do this.
The idea that bread and wine actually become the Body and Blood of Christ Himself is a tough one, to be sure---but as Thomas Aquinas said, you "cannot apprehend it by means of the senses, but only by faith, which relies on divine authority." Do I believe that the bread and wine become Jesus' actual physical Body and Blood? You bet I do. Why? Because He said it was. Period. (John chapter 6 makes it pretty clear.) Maybe some see me as a fool for that, but I see it as having childlike faith. He's God, after all, and I'm going to tell Him He can't change bread and wine into His own Body and Blood??? Who am I???
Anyway,to return to your question in the OP, Louis, there are five levels of Catholic belief; some of them are "grey areas" and some are not.
The highest is what we call "deposit", meaning the original teachings of the 12 Apostles. This is infallible material, inspired by the Holy Spirit, and it cannot be altered or changed for any reason. Some of it was written down and became Holy Scripture; some of it remained oral teaching and became what we call Sacred Tradition. Some examples of Sacred Tradition include the concept of the Trinity; the perpetual virginity of Mary; the Communion of Saints; auricular confession to priests, and the authority of the priest to forgive sins; and the concept of Apostolic succession.
Next is what we call "dogma", which is usually promulgated by a council to combat a specific heresy. This is also infallible, and it also cannot be changed. Examples of this include the Assumption of Mary and the infallibility of the Pope.
Now we come areas that can be "grey". "Doctrine" includes the teachings of theologians or scholars about some aspect of the Deposit or the Dogmas; some of this is good, some not so good. Doctrine can change over time, it can be abandoned, or revived, it can even be declared erroneous and heretical. Examples of doctrines which have bit the dust over the years include the idea of limbo and the attemped melding of Christian teaching with Platonic philosophy.
Next comes "discipline", which is usually a Church rule enforced to help people on their walk; examples of this include the pre-Vatican II practice of not eating meat on Fridays, and the practice of clerical celibacy. A discipline is "grey" in the fact that the Church can abolish it at any time if she feels it necessary.
Last is "devotion", which means the personal spiritual practices of each individual Catholic; these can change like the wind. Maybe this week you want to use Prayerbook A, maybe next week, Prayerbook B. It's all up to you.
So, in the areas of Deposit, Dogma, and a goodly amount of Doctrine, no Catholic is going to bend on them if he wants to remain a faithful Catholic who is in harmony with the Magesterium and the Holy Father. There are other things, like Marian apparitions, that you can take or leave as you choose; these are "grey" areas, after a fashion. And of course, you have the controversial areas like birth control and the Church's teachings on abortion, the death penalty, and homosexuality; some people dissent from the Church on these topics, but while they may be following their personal consciences, they are also in conflict with the stance of the Church as a whole. So those, too, are "grey" areas, in the view of the dissidents---but certainly not in the view of the Church, which sees them in clear black and white.
Dissidents from Church teaching are one of the reasons why it's usually not a good idea to ask lay Catholics about the teachings of the Catholic Church---a lot of people have been fed a lot of baloney over the years, and there's a lot of confusion out there. So if you want to know what the Catholic Church teaches, then get some books that have been put out by the Vatican, like the new Catechism, and take what you hear from some lay Catholics with a grain of salt.
Does this help, or are you more confused than ever?
Blessings,
---Wols.
The Eucharist is closer to the Passover lamb than to the Levitical sacrificial system, and if you recall, all the Israelites ate of the Passover lamb, not just the priests.
Also, the Catholic concept of the Eucharist is that Christ is truly present in the elements of Communion: actually, physically, and sacramentally. Christ is not limited to the amount of flesh and blood which made up His physical body for the distribution to His faithful; He can extend these elements for as long as He wishes. Contrary to popular misconception, the Mass is a continuation of Calvary, not a re-sacrifice over and over every time, as is often heard. The Holy Eucharist, in the same way, is an extension, over all human time, of Christ's actual physical Body and Blood. This shouldn't be too hard to accept. If Christ can be concieved by the Holy Spirit, be born of a virgin, and rise from the dead after three days, He certainly ought to be able to do this.
The idea that bread and wine actually become the Body and Blood of Christ Himself is a tough one, to be sure---but as Thomas Aquinas said, you "cannot apprehend it by means of the senses, but only by faith, which relies on divine authority." Do I believe that the bread and wine become Jesus' actual physical Body and Blood? You bet I do. Why? Because He said it was. Period. (John chapter 6 makes it pretty clear.) Maybe some see me as a fool for that, but I see it as having childlike faith. He's God, after all, and I'm going to tell Him He can't change bread and wine into His own Body and Blood??? Who am I???
Anyway,to return to your question in the OP, Louis, there are five levels of Catholic belief; some of them are "grey areas" and some are not.
The highest is what we call "deposit", meaning the original teachings of the 12 Apostles. This is infallible material, inspired by the Holy Spirit, and it cannot be altered or changed for any reason. Some of it was written down and became Holy Scripture; some of it remained oral teaching and became what we call Sacred Tradition. Some examples of Sacred Tradition include the concept of the Trinity; the perpetual virginity of Mary; the Communion of Saints; auricular confession to priests, and the authority of the priest to forgive sins; and the concept of Apostolic succession.
Next is what we call "dogma", which is usually promulgated by a council to combat a specific heresy. This is also infallible, and it also cannot be changed. Examples of this include the Assumption of Mary and the infallibility of the Pope.
Now we come areas that can be "grey". "Doctrine" includes the teachings of theologians or scholars about some aspect of the Deposit or the Dogmas; some of this is good, some not so good. Doctrine can change over time, it can be abandoned, or revived, it can even be declared erroneous and heretical. Examples of doctrines which have bit the dust over the years include the idea of limbo and the attemped melding of Christian teaching with Platonic philosophy.
Next comes "discipline", which is usually a Church rule enforced to help people on their walk; examples of this include the pre-Vatican II practice of not eating meat on Fridays, and the practice of clerical celibacy. A discipline is "grey" in the fact that the Church can abolish it at any time if she feels it necessary.
Last is "devotion", which means the personal spiritual practices of each individual Catholic; these can change like the wind. Maybe this week you want to use Prayerbook A, maybe next week, Prayerbook B. It's all up to you.
So, in the areas of Deposit, Dogma, and a goodly amount of Doctrine, no Catholic is going to bend on them if he wants to remain a faithful Catholic who is in harmony with the Magesterium and the Holy Father. There are other things, like Marian apparitions, that you can take or leave as you choose; these are "grey" areas, after a fashion. And of course, you have the controversial areas like birth control and the Church's teachings on abortion, the death penalty, and homosexuality; some people dissent from the Church on these topics, but while they may be following their personal consciences, they are also in conflict with the stance of the Church as a whole. So those, too, are "grey" areas, in the view of the dissidents---but certainly not in the view of the Church, which sees them in clear black and white.
Dissidents from Church teaching are one of the reasons why it's usually not a good idea to ask lay Catholics about the teachings of the Catholic Church---a lot of people have been fed a lot of baloney over the years, and there's a lot of confusion out there. So if you want to know what the Catholic Church teaches, then get some books that have been put out by the Vatican, like the new Catechism, and take what you hear from some lay Catholics with a grain of salt.
Does this help, or are you more confused than ever?
Blessings,
---Wols.
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