Curious as to what precisely makes Full-Preterism considered an non orthodox heresy?

[Dan Perez]

I'm not asking as a Preterist. I disagree with them as strongly as I disagree with dispensationalists and pre, mid, post, ah= millennialists as far as the scripture is concerned. But I have never seen someone cite anything other than what they believe to tag them as "heretics." So it is something I have been curious about for decades.

And just. asking. ,BUT. the word DISPENSATIKONAISM. is found in. EPH. 1:10 , in. 3:2 and. in. 1. COR. 9:17 and. in. Col. 1:25

and in. 1. Tim 1:4 and in. Luke 16:2 , 3 , 4. !!

dan p

 

[Dan Perez]

Seems beside the point. But I think we can agree on the state not having authority to determine truth.

And I am a DISPENSATIONALIST and I have attended many different churches and I am OLD. and have never heard what

you have written !

dan p

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

I understand that. But that does not mean people, specifically dispensationalists understand what those dispensations are. For instance, this is a proper understanding of a dispensation.

This is one of best examples of the nature of God's supernatural book, the Bible. Moses as well as other prophets wrote- That what we call the first covenant given by Moses to Israel, was predestined to be replaced by God in favor of a second covenant that was to come. That the first covenant was but an instrument towards his designs of a predestined second covenant through which he would save billions and transform the world.
Now like I said many of the prophets spoke of this but no one did it quite like Moses in the first five books of the Bible. This is why God rejected so many of the first born in Genesis but elected and predestined the second born.

• Cain the first born of Adam was rejected in favor of the second born Abel.
• Ishmael, Abraham's first born was rejected in favor of his second born Isaac.
• Esau the first born rejected in favor of the second born Jacob.
• Jacob, later named Israel blessed Joseph's second born over the first born.
• Moses struck the rock the first time in the wilderness and nothing happened, but the second time he struck it water, “the living water” came out.

None of this was written by accident. It is all prophecy about God predestining the world to be saved via the second covenant with the first as a means to arrive at the second. There is much more of this in the Bible like Israel's first king Saul being rejected in favor of Israel's second king David. Even the book of Job is a prophecy of the first and second covenant. Everything Job had from God at first was destroyed by Satan. But what he received the second time around was much much more and endured. However, the the coup d'état of this prophecy is at the end of the five books of the Torah. God does not allow Moses to lead the people into the promised land because a man named Yahshua, Joshua in English, Jesus from Hebrew to Greek to English, was predestined to do that. A man named Jesus led the children of Israel into the promised land as a prophecy of Jesus leading the meek to inherit the entire earth!
Now ask yourselves how could Moses and the rest of the OT writers knew such things about a first and second covenant and could preach and prophesy this would happen thousands of years in advance? Especially through the historical story line of the lives of the patriarchs and the lawgiver Moses himself? It certainly was not written after the fact as the books of Moses and the prophets were known throughout the empires of those days many centuries before the Messiah came. Besides, do you think the Jewish political class who murdered Jesus because they thought he would take their ruler-ship over the Jewish people from them would go ahead and alter the scriptures in such a way as to prove the claims made about Jesus? In their rabbinical writings in the centuries following the first century they sure don’t. They couldn’t anyway. The entire Greek Empire had access to the Hebrew Bible written in Greek hundreds of years before Jesus came. That is just historical fact.
I would like you to use reason and logic about what I just pointed out. This is not just a matter of so called faith. What possible reason could Moses or any other writers of the OT have had to conjure up such a story line? What gain would it have been to them? What a total contrivance of nothing because there was no chance the world could or would develop along such lines. Especially in light of the fact that no one understood what it all meant. The apostle Paul called this in Ephesians 3:4.... the mystery of Christ 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; But he found this out after the fact because it became evident due to it transpiring in his ministry. His revelation of it came through the scripture as he was living out what was prophesied. God had to trick Peter into going to a household of gentiles to preach. Even after that Peter called Paul's writings on the subject scripture, because there was really no clarity in their minds on the matter up until that point, until after it began to come to pass. One might ascertain that surely some of the saved in ancient Israel knew that the messiah was going to bring the light, salvation and transformation to the nations because there is so much prophecy about it. Some of the prophets even spoke directly of a new covenant for Israel and the abrogation of the current one. But the means through which that would be accomplished was just to much to grasp for them. Especially since what was written was four-twelve centuries old before Jesus had arrived on the scene and, there was no more scripture written throughout that four hundred year period. Moses even stated it in Duet 18:17 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelite's. You must listen to him. 18.....He will tell them everything I command him. 19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. Or as the writer of the NT book of Hebrew claims concerning the Old Covenant: 2nd Co. 3:13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelite's from seeing the end of what was passing away.
It is very easy today to nonchalantly look at our world without any regard to how impossible what we are living out could have been prophesied by Moses and the rest of the OT prophets. There is no getting away with the lies some folks make about Jesus, that NT writers made it all up after the fact and created a Jesus to fit OT prophecies. Those fallacious claims are as far from logic and reason as you can get with this body of prophecy with just a casual look at history. These prophecies were spoken in a world ruled in perpetuity by despotic kings, emperors and warlords. A world where the government imposed idol worship with the death penalty for non participation. A world where 1\3 to 1\2 of all people were the property of others. In most of it human sacrifice was practiced and the rulers were looked upon as demi-gods, most of whom just happened to be LGBTP. Property rights were non existent once kingdoms were established since the king could just take anyone's property and give it to their supporters. It was even a law in the Roman Empire where the new emperor could execute the families of anyone he wanted and deliver their property to his supporters. In that world Jehovah was just a small tribal god that was of such little regard that he did not even make the Greek or Roman pantheon of gods. Yet in those circumstances with the entire world and all its power arrayed against it every coming to pass as exampled by Israel already suffering multiple holocausts by the time Jesus came on the scene. Prophecies like this within the context of the replacement of the Old covenant by the New Covenant were spoken.
Psalm 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the families of the nations shall worship before you. 28 For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.
Isaiah 2:17......and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. 18 And the idols he shall utterly abolish.
Isaiah 54:5 ......The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
Here we are today. Prophecies out of God's supernatural book impossible to contrive and fulfill, being fulfilled. There are now believers who worship the God of the Bible among all ethnic groups on earth and this phenomena in numbers has been growing by leaps and bounds every single year. Half the world once deadly serious about worshiping their hundreds of idols have forsaken them. They are now just historical artifacts. Although half the world at this point are not heaven bound servants of God and believers. Half the world does call the God of the Bible, the God of the whole earth. The other half is soon to follow through the preaching of the Gospel. Can you see, especially you people who claim Christ that the only thing that can account for it is supernatural authorship? Only God could inspire Moses to write what he did and only God could bring it to pass in a world that was completely hostile to its fulfillment, but had no idea what it was that was going to be fulfilled in the first place. They just wanted to kill the messengers because they figured them a threat to their rule. You know what? They were right.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Seems beside the point. But I think we can agree on the state not having authority to determine truth.

How is it besides the point if it's the very reason we're labeled "heretics" without any scriptural justification? Look at post 2 for his reason for calling full preterists heretics.

How is this not the second coming?
Here in Hebrews it is clearly stated He appeared a first time to take away sins and will appear a second to bring salvation to those who were presently and eagerly waiting for Him.
Hebrews 9:28so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him.

Here's a list of those revealed by the Holy Spirit to be eagerly waiting for Him in the first century.
https://biblehub.com/greek/553.htmhttps://biblehub.com/greek/553.htm

 

[Dan Perez]

I understand that. But that does not mean people, specifically dispensationalists understand what those dispensations are. For instance, this is a proper understanding of a dispensation.

This is one of best examples of the nature of God's supernatural book, the Bible. Moses as well as other prophets wrote- That what we call the first covenant given by Moses to Israel, was predestined to be replaced by God in favor of a second covenant that was to come. That the first covenant was but an instrument towards his designs of a predestined second covenant through which he would save billions and transform the world.
Now like I said many of the prophets spoke of this but no one did it quite like Moses in the first five books of the Bible. This is why God rejected so many of the first born in Genesis but elected and predestined the second born.

• Cain the first born of Adam was rejected in favor of the second born Abel.
• Ishmael, Abraham's first born was rejected in favor of his second born Isaac.
• Esau the first born rejected in favor of the second born Jacob.
• Jacob, later named Israel blessed Joseph's second born over the first born.
• Moses struck the rock the first time in the wilderness and nothing happened, but the second time he struck it water, “the living water” came out.

None of this was written by accident. It is all prophecy about God predestining the world to be saved via the second covenant with the first as a means to arrive at the second. There is much more of this in the Bible like Israel's first king Saul being rejected in favor of Israel's second king David. Even the book of Job is a prophecy of the first and second covenant. Everything Job had from God at first was destroyed by Satan. But what he received the second time around was much much more and endured. However, the the coup d'état of this prophecy is at the end of the five books of the Torah. God does not allow Moses to lead the people into the promised land because a man named Yahshua, Joshua in English, Jesus from Hebrew to Greek to English, was predestined to do that. A man named Jesus led the children of Israel into the promised land as a prophecy of Jesus leading the meek to inherit the entire earth!
Now ask yourselves how could Moses and the rest of the OT writers knew such things about a first and second covenant and could preach and prophesy this would happen thousands of years in advance? Especially through the historical story line of the lives of the patriarchs and the lawgiver Moses himself? It certainly was not written after the fact as the books of Moses and the prophets were known throughout the empires of those days many centuries before the Messiah came. Besides, do you think the Jewish political class who murdered Jesus because they thought he would take their ruler-ship over the Jewish people from them would go ahead and alter the scriptures in such a way as to prove the claims made about Jesus? In their rabbinical writings in the centuries following the first century they sure don’t. They couldn’t anyway. The entire Greek Empire had access to the Hebrew Bible written in Greek hundreds of years before Jesus came. That is just historical fact.
I would like you to use reason and logic about what I just pointed out. This is not just a matter of so called faith. What possible reason could Moses or any other writers of the OT have had to conjure up such a story line? What gain would it have been to them? What a total contrivance of nothing because there was no chance the world could or would develop along such lines. Especially in light of the fact that no one understood what it all meant. The apostle Paul called this in Ephesians 3:4.... the mystery of Christ 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; But he found this out after the fact because it became evident due to it transpiring in his ministry. His revelation of it came through the scripture as he was living out what was prophesied. God had to trick Peter into going to a household of gentiles to preach. Even after that Peter called Paul's writings on the subject scripture, because there was really no clarity in their minds on the matter up until that point, until after it began to come to pass. One might ascertain that surely some of the saved in ancient Israel knew that the messiah was going to bring the light, salvation and transformation to the nations because there is so much prophecy about it. Some of the prophets even spoke directly of a new covenant for Israel and the abrogation of the current one. But the means through which that would be accomplished was just to much to grasp for them. Especially since what was written was four-twelve centuries old before Jesus had arrived on the scene and, there was no more scripture written throughout that four hundred year period. Moses even stated it in Duet 18:17 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelite's. You must listen to him. 18.....He will tell them everything I command him. 19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. Or as the writer of the NT book of Hebrew claims concerning the Old Covenant: 2nd Co. 3:13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelite's from seeing the end of what was passing away.
It is very easy today to nonchalantly look at our world without any regard to how impossible what we are living out could have been prophesied by Moses and the rest of the OT prophets. There is no getting away with the lies some folks make about Jesus, that NT writers made it all up after the fact and created a Jesus to fit OT prophecies. Those fallacious claims are as far from logic and reason as you can get with this body of prophecy with just a casual look at history. These prophecies were spoken in a world ruled in perpetuity by despotic kings, emperors and warlords. A world where the government imposed idol worship with the death penalty for non participation. A world where 1\3 to 1\2 of all people were the property of others. In most of it human sacrifice was practiced and the rulers were looked upon as demi-gods, most of whom just happened to be LGBTP. Property rights were non existent once kingdoms were established since the king could just take anyone's property and give it to their supporters. It was even a law in the Roman Empire where the new emperor could execute the families of anyone he wanted and deliver their property to his supporters. In that world Jehovah was just a small tribal god that was of such little regard that he did not even make the Greek or Roman pantheon of gods. Yet in those circumstances with the entire world and all its power arrayed against it every coming to pass as exampled by Israel already suffering multiple holocausts by the time Jesus came on the scene. Prophecies like this within the context of the replacement of the Old covenant by the New Covenant were spoken.
Psalm 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the families of the nations shall worship before you. 28 For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.
Isaiah 2:17......and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. 18 And the idols he shall utterly abolish.
Isaiah 54:5 ......The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
Here we are today. Prophecies out of God's supernatural book impossible to contrive and fulfill, being fulfilled. There are now believers who worship the God of the Bible among all ethnic groups on earth and this phenomena in numbers has been growing by leaps and bounds every single year. Half the world once deadly serious about worshiping their hundreds of idols have forsaken them. They are now just historical artifacts. Although half the world at this point are not heaven bound servants of God and believers. Half the world does call the God of the Bible, the God of the whole earth. The other half is soon to follow through the preaching of the Gospel. Can you see, especially you people who claim Christ that the only thing that can account for it is supernatural authorship? Only God could inspire Moses to write what he did and only God could bring it to pass in a world that was completely hostile to its fulfillment, but had no idea what it was that was going to be fulfilled in the first place. They just wanted to kill the messengers because they figured them a threat to their rule. You know what? They were right.

And one. of. the first books sat said that. there were 7 dispensations , THAT IS NOT TRUE as the Greek word

OIOKONOMIA. , as. OIKKOS. means. a house and NOMOS. means. LAW. . so it means HOUSE LAW. and will you explain.

what are the house laws are and it seems. to that the. word dispensation are found only. in. Pauls writings ,

it seems. ??

And you said that Moses struck. the ROCK TWICE. and what does. that mean. ??

Help. me out as it seem you have knowledge of what dispensation means. ?

dan p

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

How is it besides the point if it's the very reason we're labeled "heretics" without any scriptural justification? Look at post 2 for his reason for calling full preterists heretics.

How is this not the second coming?
Here in Hebrews it is clearly stated He appeared a first time to take away sins and will appear a second to bring salvation to those who were presently and eagerly waiting for Him.
Hebrews 9:28so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him.

Here's a list of those revealed by the Holy Spirit to be eagerly waiting for Him in the first century.
https://biblehub.com/greek/553.htmhttps://biblehub.com/greek/553.htm

Your probably not aware that the phrase "second coming" does not exist in the Bible. It is however replete with examples of the coming of the Lord.

The Bible has dozens of examples where the Lord physically and literally came down to earth on certain days to administer judgment, oversee calamity and fulfill promise and prophecy. These days of the Lord where he physically and literally comes down to the planet is where the Bible's doctrine of the coming of the Lord comes hails from. What does not exist in the Bible is the phrase "the second coming." Unlike the phrase "the Trinity" that is also not in the Bible but that at least goes along with what the Bibles teaches. The idea of a "second" coming or advent changes the Bibles teaching on the matter and renders the Bible's prophecy incomprehensible. Which by the way is design of the phrase. To turn peoples eyes away from the supernatural clarity of the Bible's prophecy and turn those eyes to something the Bible does not prophesy at all. Apocalyptic end of the world scenarios. See more...​

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Your probably not aware that the phrase "second coming" does not exist in the Bible. It is however replete with examples of the coming of the Lord.

The Bible has dozens of examples where the Lord physically and literally came down to earth on certain days to administer judgment, oversee calamity and fulfill promise and prophecy. These days of the Lord where he physically and literally comes down to the planet is where the Bible's doctrine of the coming of the Lord comes hails from. What does not exist in the Bible is the phrase "the second coming." Unlike the phrase "the Trinity" that is also not in the Bible but that at least goes along with what the Bibles teaches. The idea of a "second" coming or advent changes the Bibles teaching on the matter and renders the Bible's prophecy incomprehensible. Which by the way is design of the phrase. To turn peoples eyes away from the supernatural clarity of the Bible's prophecy and turn those eyes to something the Bible does not prophesy at all. Apocalyptic end of the world scenarios. See more...​

And you're saying the bible says "He came down physically". Highlight where it says "He came down physically".

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Not sure it is better. I'm not having this discussion to learn about preterism. My beliefs about Bible prophecy are sealed up. I'm having it because I want to know if people who call them heretics really know what they are talking about. So far I'm seeing tribalism at play.

The reality IS, the Spirit of Christ dwells in the believers. So the question of Him leaving is moot. He never leaves us or forsakes us.

So what is the so called second coming? I glanced through your site. meh. Doesn't hit any high points other than to say everything just carries on as usual and from time to time God supposedly stirs things up.

The real question in these matters is this: WHEN does it end?

What "end?"

This world is a perpetual stew of sin, evil and death, commonly known as "the whole world lying in wickedness."

Yet light in the ethereal senses dwells therein also. The classic "light shining in darkness" COMMAND of God, 2 Cor. 4:6

Where did that light shine from? It wasn't the sun.

The second coming IS the Christian Hope.

What are we hoping for? The END of sin, evil and death.

How will that end come? At the so called Second Coming:

1 John 3:2

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Paul elaborates on this same principle quite succinctly in 1 Cor. 15. Pay attention to THE END:

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Has this happened yet? No. But it will. That is the Promise and the Hope.

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

2nd Coming in a nutshell

The Lord shall come SUDDENLY

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

And you're saying the bible says "He came down physically". Highlight where it says "He came down physically".

So when he sat down to dinner with Abraham and then had a discussion about Sodom and Gomorrah- I don’t know how much more physical it can get.

All those past examples I listed in that article of his coming imply a physical appearance. I don’t think it matters if his coming can be seen with people’s material eyes or only perceived spiritually. The Bible does not seem to make that distinction as far as ITS doctrine of the coming of the Lord. It just prophetically says he is coming, often giving dates or events that demonstrate his coming. Then, listing them historically if it was history.

 

[Dan Perez]

Your probably not aware that the phrase "second coming" does not exist in the Bible. It is however replete with examples of the coming of the Lord.

The Bible has dozens of examples where the Lord physically and literally came down to earth on certain days to administer judgment, oversee calamity and fulfill promise and prophecy. These days of the Lord where he physically and literally comes down to the planet is where the Bible's doctrine of the coming of the Lord comes hails from. What does not exist in the Bible is the phrase "the second coming." Unlike the phrase "the Trinity" that is also not in the Bible but that at least goes along with what the Bibles teaches. The idea of a "second" coming or advent changes the Bibles teaching on the matter and renders the Bible's prophecy incomprehensible. Which by the way is design of the phrase. To turn peoples eyes away from the supernatural clarity of the Bible's prophecy and turn those eyes to something the Bible does not prophesy at all. Apocalyptic end of the world scenarios. See more...​

As I have said , I am a DISPENSATIONALIST , is this what. they cal the SECOND COMING in. Matt 25:31- 32 where Christ separates

the SHEEP. an the Goats ??

dan p

 

[Ed Parenteau]

So when he sat down to dinner with Abraham and then had a discussion about Sodom and Gomorrah- I don’t know how much more physical it can get.

All those past examples I listed in that article of his coming imply a physical appearance. I don’t think it matters if his coming can be seen with people’s material eyes or only perceived spiritually. The Bible does not seem to make that distinction as far as ITS doctrine of the coming of the Lord. It just prophetically says he is coming, often giving dates or events that demonstrate his coming. Then, listing them historically if it was history.

Then I don't know how much clearer it can be than to say "He will appear a second time" as the second coming unless you're arguing He didn't come the first time. This is a direct play off of the first appearance/coming. He literally gave His word to those who were eagerly waiting for Him, as He did to the apostles in Matthew 16 and 24 and as He did to the churches in Revelation when He told them to "hold fast to what you have until I come"
Hebrews 9: 25Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

As to "coming down physically": Since God is Spirit and no one has seen Him at any time, so He did not come down physically, rather He, like the angels can manifest as a man. God doesn't literally "come down" as He is everywhere, He is omnipresent. It's a figure of speech.
Psalm 139:

7Where can I go to escape Your Spirit?
Where can I flee from Your presence?
8If I ascend to the heavens, You are there;
if I make my bed in Sheol, You are there.
9If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle by the farthest sea,
10even there Your hand will guide me;
Your right hand will hold me fast.
11If I say, “Surely the darkness will hide me,
and the light become night around me”—
12even the darkness is not dark to You,
but the night shines like the day,
for darkness is as light to You.​

 

[Dan Perez]

Then I don't know how much clearer it can be than to say "He will appear a second time" as the second coming unless you're arguing He didn't come the first time. This is a direct play off of the first appearance/coming. He literally gave His word to those who were eagerly waiting for Him, as He did to the apostles in Matthew 16 and 24 and as He did to the churches in Revelation when He told them to "hold fast to what you have until I come"
Hebrews 9: 25Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

As to "coming down physically": Since God is Spirit and no one has seen Him at any time, so He did not come down physically, rather He, like the angels can manifest as a man. God doesn't literally "come down" as He is everywhere, He is omnipresent. It's a figure of speech.
Psalm 139:

7Where can I go to escape Your Spirit?
Where can I flee from Your presence?
8If I ascend to the heavens, You are there;
if I make my bed in Sheol, You are there.
9If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle by the farthest sea,
10even there Your hand will guide me;
Your right hand will hold me fast.
11If I say, “Surely the darkness will hide me,
and the light become night around me”—
12even the darkness is not dark to You,
but the night shines like the day,
for darkness is as light to You.​

And just what. I . read here , PRETERISM. is not for me as. I CAN. explain. DISPENSATION. and what it means in. the

column called DISPENATION. , SEE YOU. !!

dan p

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Then I don't know how much clearer it can be than to say "He will appear a second time" as the second coming unless you're arguing He didn't come the first time. This is a direct play off of the first appearance/coming. He literally gave His word to those who were eagerly waiting for Him, as He did to the apostles in Matthew 16 and 24 and as He did to the churches in Revelation when He told them to "hold fast to what you have until I come"
Hebrews 9: 25Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

As to "coming down physically": Since God is Spirit and no one has seen Him at any time, so He did not come down physically, rather He, like the angels can manifest as a man. God doesn't literally "come down" as He is everywhere, He is omnipresent. It's a figure of speech.
Psalm 139:

7Where can I go to escape Your Spirit?
Where can I flee from Your presence?
8If I ascend to the heavens, You are there;
if I make my bed in Sheol, You are there.
9If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle by the farthest sea,
10even there Your hand will guide me;
Your right hand will hold me fast.
11If I say, “Surely the darkness will hide me,
and the light become night around me”—
12even the darkness is not dark to You,
but the night shines like the day,
for darkness is as light to You.​

Hebrews 9:25-28
That is an interpretation not a translation.
Verse 26

◄ 5319. phaneroó ►

Lexical Summary phaneroó: To make manifest, to reveal, to make known, to show openly.​ HELPS Word-studies 5319 phaneróō (from 5457 /phṓs, "light") – properly, illumine, make manifest (visible); (figuratively) make plain, in open view; to become apparent ("graspable").

Verse 28

◄ 3708. horaó ►

Lexical Summary horaó: To see, perceive, attend to​ HELPS Word-studies 3708 horáō – properly, see, often with metaphorical meaning: "to see with the mind" (i.e. spiritually see), i.e. perceive (with inward spiritual perception). Look at it yourself. Hebrews 9:26 Interlinear: since it had behoved him many times to suffer from the foundation of the world, but now once, at the full end of the ages, for putting away of sin through his sacrifice, he hath been manifested; As I stated. There is no phrase second coming in the Bible. Only the coming of the Lord and verse 28 is not about the coming of the Lord. In verse 26 it's referring to his ministry in the flesh. In verse 28 everyone who finds salvation in Christ experiences "horao'". Plus the fact that all those who await him will see him in heaven. That other verse is not talking about seeing him with ones eyes. It's talking about a proper perception of him. Daniel 7 and the other prophets saw him with their eyes. That's why Jesus finished up that verse by saying the son of man has declared him. In other words he is saying. I am giving you the proper perception.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

As I have said , I am a DISPENSATIONALIST , is this what. they cal the SECOND COMING in. Matt 25:31- 32 where Christ separates

the SHEEP. an the Goats ??

dan p

Why would that be a second coming? He has been doing that all along.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

The reality IS, the Spirit of Christ dwells in the believers. So the question of Him leaving is moot. He never leaves us or forsakes us.

So what is the so called second coming? I glanced through your site. meh. Doesn't hit any high points other than to say everything just carries on as usual and from time to time God supposedly stirs things up.

The real question in these matters is this: WHEN does it end?

What "end?"

This world is a perpetual stew of sin, evil and death, commonly known as "the whole world lying in wickedness."

Yet light in the ethereal senses dwells therein also. The classic "light shining in darkness" COMMAND of God, 2 Cor. 4:6

Where did that light shine from? It wasn't the sun.

The second coming IS the Christian Hope.

What are we hoping for? The END of sin, evil and death.

How will that end come? At the so called Second Coming:

1 John 3:2

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Paul elaborates on this same principle quite succinctly in 1 Cor. 15. Pay attention to THE END:

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Has this happened yet? No. But it will. That is the Promise and the Hope.

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

2nd Coming in a nutshell

The Lord shall come SUDDENLY

You picked an excellent example of just how these end time teaches influnce the way see the Bible.

This tidbit of truth from the Bible could be categorized under: Fundamental error.​

1st Corinthians 15:24 then the end, when He shall hand over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He shall have annulled all dominion, and all authority and power. 25 For it behooves Him to reign until He shall have put all the enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy to be abolished is death. 27 For “He has put in subjection all things under His feet.” But when it may be said that all things have been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all things to Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things shall have been put in subjection to Him, then also the Son Himself will be put in subjection to the One having put in subjection all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.​

The end in the first verse where Christ hands the kingdom over to the Father is the cross. Before the cross Jesus annulled all dominion, authority and power. John 18:6 shows his dominion, authority and power exercised against the government and its soldiers. John 8:59 over mobs attempting to kill him. John 9:1-34 over disabilities, in this case a man born blind. Luke 4:40 over all sickness and disease. Matthew 8:29, over demons. John 2:1-11 and Matthew 14:15-21 over the elements. Luke 8:22-25 over the earth. Mark 2:3-12 over sin. Matthew 4:1-11 over temptation. Luke 5:4-11 over the animal kingdom. Verses 25-26 says Jesus reigned until he put all of his enemies under his feet and then he abolished the last enemy death, with his resurrection. Verse 27 tells us how he did this, (as a human being.) The One who put all things under his feet when he walked this earth was God his Father. Everything was put in subjection to Jesus with the exception of God the Father. Verse 28 says once all was conquered then Jesus was put in subjection to the one who subjected all things to him. This happened when Jesus voluntarily surrendered himself in the Garden of Gethsemane to the authorities’ intent on killing him.​

John 16:33 I have spoken these things to you so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation. But take courage; I have overcome the world." The word overcome in this verse means to conquer and prevail in battle.
That is what Jesus did AS KING. The fundamental error is thinking that Jesus came only as a suffering servant and will someday return as a conquering king. What he did was come as a conquering king who then gave his life for the sins of the world that God may be all in all, as 1st Corinthians 15:28 says. His kingdom that is currently being built is not modeled on the worlds kingdoms of that day. If you want to see it, or at least its effects, as it is invisible; all you have to do is look at the free world created and built by Christians and others influenced by the Bible and the laws of nature. There was no such world in any way shape or form back then.​

Fear not Jesus says; Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, on the throne of David, and on his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from now on even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.​

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

You picked an excellent example of just how these end time teaches influnce the way see the Bible.

This tidbit of truth from the Bible could be categorized under: Fundamental error.​

1st Corinthians 15:24 then the end, when He shall hand over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He shall have annulled all dominion, and all authority and power. 25 For it behooves Him to reign until He shall have put all the enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy to be abolished is death. 27 For “He has put in subjection all things under His feet.” But when it may be said that all things have been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all things to Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things shall have been put in subjection to Him, then also the Son Himself will be put in subjection to the One having put in subjection all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.​

The end in the first verse where Christ hands the kingdom over to the Father is the cross. Before the cross Jesus annulled all dominion, authority and power. John 18:6 shows his dominion, authority and power exercised against the government and its soldiers. John 8:59 over mobs attempting to kill him. John 9:1-34 over disabilities, in this case a man born blind. Luke 4:40 over all sickness and disease. Matthew 8:29, over demons. John 2:1-11 and Matthew 14:15-21 over the elements. Luke 8:22-25 over the earth. Mark 2:3-12 over sin. Matthew 4:1-11 over temptation. Luke 5:4-11 over the animal kingdom. Verses 25-26 says Jesus reigned until he put all of his enemies under his feet and then he abolished the last enemy death, with his resurrection. Verse 27 tells us how he did this, (as a human being.) The One who put all things under his feet when he walked this earth was God his Father. Everything was put in subjection to Jesus with the exception of God the Father. Verse 28 says once all was conquered then Jesus was put in subjection to the one who subjected all things to him. This happened when Jesus voluntarily surrendered himself in the Garden of Gethsemane to the authorities’ intent on killing him.​

John 16:33 I have spoken these things to you so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation. But take courage; I have overcome the world." The word overcome in this verse means to conquer and prevail in battle.​

That is what Jesus did AS KING. The fundamental error is thinking that Jesus came only as a suffering servant and will someday return as a conquering king. What he did was come as a conquering king who then gave his life for the sins of the world that God may be all in all, as 1st Corinthians 15:28 says. His kingdom that is currently being built is not modeled on the worlds kingdoms of that day. If you want to see it, or at least its effects, as it is invisible; all you have to do is look at the free world created and built by Christians and others influenced by the Bible and the laws of nature. There was no such world in any way shape or form back then.​

Fear not Jesus says; Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, on the throne of David, and on his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from now on even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.​

You merely miss the entire point

Jesus came to "destroy" the devil and his works.

Has that happened yet? No.

We have dominion over, but not eradication, yet.

Part of the Christian Hope is for the permanent eradication of the devil and his messengers.

So put your cards on the table for that subject and maybe we can have a conversation?