Culpability

[Penumbra]

Maybe if we weren't spending so much on war, and feeding our own greed, we could build to withstand hurricanes, research diseases and congenital defects. These are not problems that can be solved while we are spending our resources and energy on wars to make the plutocrats richer.

Yeah, but then when money is spent researching diseases and defects, people get yelled at for animal testing or killing embryos.

If the ones who see Jesus would really do the right thing even at the cost of their own lives, if the Muslims would practice charity and mercy as they are enjoined, if the Hindus actually acknowledged the divinity in others, in short, if people actually lived up to their professed high ideals, the world would be a better place, and getting better. But the road to Hell is paved with the good intentions discarded by those on the way, for good and practical reasons. All you have to do to get out of Hell is to quit living in such a way as to make a Hell of wherever you are. It is simple, no?

I think in some ways you're selecting certain aspects of these holy books and ignoring others.

Jesus mentions abandoning people who abandon him, being burned in fire, being bound hand and foot and thrown out into the darkness, and so forth. The Qur'an mentions boiling water getting poured on the heads of people. Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita encourages Arjuna to kill his enemies, and although some people such as Gandhi interpret that as a metaphor, I don't think that's how it was implied when written. I mean, Krishna even goes so far as to say that the people he kills have eternal souls and so won't really die, which to me implies he wasn't speaking metaphorically.

-Lyn

 

[ToddNotTodd]

God's desire was to create a being with the capability to love. What is the opposite of love?

Did Adam and Eve die? No - Then what did God mean when He said they would surely die? His warning that decisions have consequence.

You conclusion actually ignores God's true desire for us. Therefore, your reasoning is in fact faulty. Your only see the pain and suffering of the fallen world yet have ignored the love. Why is that?

None of the above actually address the premises and how they might be faulty. The only way to invalidate my argument is to do so. I'm sure you remember this from any logic class you might have taken.

Please point out the error in the premises, or accept the conclusion.

But God does not act in society. Try again.

Disregarding all the Christians that say your God actually does intervene in human affairs (act in society), God's willful creation of suffering (actually the Bible says "evil", but I've never liked the term) is an effect on society. So I'm correct.

That would be when that person share a responsibility. You can't claim ignorance now. You have been informed. You just don't like the standard set. One much higher than anything man can think up.

I have no idea what you're talking about. What standard set? And what would I be claiming ignorance about?

You state God wants suffering - god caused suffering therefore God wants suffering. Just because you add a few lines agreeing to omniscience and omnipotence and call it a supported argument.

Yep. God does what he most desires. If God creates suffering then God desires it. And is culpable for it. It's pretty simple.

If you have an objection with it, find fault with the premises.

Gen 2:
15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

He gave them the very same human body as Jesus (Known to us as the second Adam,). Jesus never gave into sin (Taking on the fruit). Adam had the same yet could not control the urge, much like the rest of mankind.

So Adam and Eve weren't created with the propensity to never choose to cause suffering. That's what I said.

God could have done so without affecting free will (unless you deny omnipotence), but he did not. So God desired the fall, desired the suffering.

Descisions have consequence. You want to remove that consequence even if the consequence affects others that we care for.

Not sure what you're talking about here. I'll ask again...

Why didn't God create our bodies (and for that matter, all living creatures) to withstand all damage, to not feel pain, to not become decrepit, etc?