CSA Flag varient to stay in Mississippi

[William67]

No, I didn't read the entire article. If you give someone a link to an article that long you can at least I put in the page number where your evidence can be found. As it was, I put 75 in the find feature and nothing came up with coincided with your assertion. And I read the section on 1860 more carefully. In any case, farmers and planters are different things.



You realize I'm a historian by profession? I teach at Jackson State.

And I'm a mechanical engineer, doesn't mean I claim to know everything. I can build a PTO in my sleep, but I certainly cant build an aircraft carrier. If you had bothered to fully read the article, you would realize that at the time of the Revolution, the South was far wealthier than the North. However, by the time of the Civil War, even what would have been considered "middle class" in the South would have been considered "poverty stricken" in the North. The article did require some basic math skills and reasoning.

 

[smaneck]

And I'm a mechanical engineer, doesn't mean I claim to know everything.

Fine, but I would not insult you by saying you need to go back and study engineering. And I would never presume to know engineering better than an engineer.

I can build a PTO in my sleep, but I certainly cant build an aircraft carrier. If you had bothered to fully read the article, you would realize that at the time of the Revolution, the South was far wealthier than the North. However, by the time of the Civil War, even what would have been considered "middle class" in the South would have been considered "poverty stricken" in the North. The article did require some basic math skills and reasoning.

You still can't point me to the page number where it says the average farmer only made $75

​

a year in 1860.
I'm seeing a lot of assertions unsupported by evidence.
However it is certainly true that plantation societies were originally more prosperous than areas dominated by independent farmers . For instance, the British made more off of Barbados and other countries with sugar plantations than they did any other colony. However, whites who were not planters steadily saw their income decreasing over time because they were forced to compete with unfree labor. Today the most impoverished areas in both North and South America are those which had formerly been slave plantation societies. That is not an accident because capital tended to accumulate in fewer and fewer hands over time. Over the long haul it was those areas with lots of independent farmers that faired better, but they faired better for themselves, not their mother country or the share-holders who established their colony. To understand this you have to understand Wallerstein's World Systems theory wherein those areas which produced raw materials became impoverished in relationship to those areas which produced finished goods.

 

[William67]

Fine, but I would not insult you by saying you need to go back and study engineering. And I would never presume to know engineering better than an engineer.



You still can't point me to the page number where it says the average farmer only made $75

​

a year in 1860.
I'm seeing a lot of assertions unsupported by evidence.
However it is certainly true that plantation societies were originally more prosperous than areas dominated by independent farmers . For instance, the British made more off of Barbados and other countries with sugar plantations than they did any other colony. However, whites who were not planters steadily saw their income decreasing over time because they were forced to compete with unfree labor. Today the most impoverished areas in both North and South America are those which had formerly been slave plantation societies. That is not an accident because capital tended to accumulate in fewer and fewer hands over time. Over the long haul it was those areas with lots of independent farmers that faired better, but they faired better for themselves, not their mother country or the share-holders who established their colony. To understand this you have to understand Wallerstein's World Systems theory wherein those areas which produced raw materials became impoverished in relationship to those areas which produced finished goods.

I still don't think you actually read the whole paper. You should also know that the average monthly income for workers, all workers, in the South was between $6.00-$7.00 in 1860. Farmers and farm workers made significantly less, just as they do now. They base this on historic govt documents, which is explained in the paper. Southerners also made an average of 38.1% of the income of their Northern counterparts. So, if Northern farmers made X amount of dollars, Southern farmers made 38.1% the amount of Northerners.

 

[smaneck]

I still don't think you actually read the whole paper.

I don't want to read the whole paper, I just want you to tell me on what page it says the average farmer earned $75 a year as you asserted. Then I'll read that page. Otherwise I will assume it is not so.

You should also know that the average monthly income for workers, all workers, in the South was between $6.00-$7.00 in 1860. Farmers and farm workers made significantly less, just as they do now.

Farm workers make less, not farmers.

They base this on historic govt documents, which is explained in the paper. Southerners also made an average of 38.1% of the income of their Northern counterparts. So, if Northern farmers made X amount of dollars, Southern farmers made 38.1% the amount of Northerners.

Just tell me on what page it says farmers only made $75 a year. That's all I'm asking. Should be simple enough.

And once again, farmers and planters are different things.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

William67 said: ↑
If you could go back and ask those men what they were fighting for, they wouldn't say slavery. They fought for their families, their friends, their area, and their states. The majority of men who fought in the war didn't even own slaves. Those who were rich enough to own slaves, sent paid surrogates to fight in their stead.
My ancestors were Cherokee. None of them owned slaves and they certainly didn't fight for slavery or slave owners.

Same. We were White/Cherokee from Indian Territory and owned no slaves.

Those were the tough old days.
They were good until the white man came to "civilize" them.


..............................................................

.

 

[One Voice Among Many1]

Those were the tough old days.
They were good until the white man came to "civilize" them.


..............................................................

.

Chief Dan George. Much respect.

And about the white man coming to "civilize" the NDN....

 

[AceHero]

No, it is not what is generally taught in the public schools in Mississippi because the majority of students in public schools are people of color. What they might teach in the private white flight schools I couldn't say.

Ive always loved the term "white flight". It basically says that whites should stay in an area even if it means they are putting their families in danger.

No, blacks moved to northern cities for better opportunities and white families put their houses up for sale and moved to the suburbs. It didn't even matter if the black families were somewhat well off, they were black, and and lots of white people didn't want to live in neighborhoods like that.

Redlining was a FHA policy until the late 1960s. Of course white people left—as their neighborhoods became less white, they could only get mortgages in new white neighborhoods.

I certainly never said that. William Winter was probably the best governor the state of Mississippi ever had, but he was once a segregationist.
I'm not complaining about slavery, I'm just saying stop waving a flag that represents it in my face.

I will wave that flag anywhere I please. Don't like it, go somewhere else. In fact, I think I will drop the "bloody rag" of the US from the flagpole in front of my business and not only run up the battle flag, but also the 3rd National Flag of the Confederacy.

Whatever makes you feel good, but the United States of America is here to stay.

To your last point it would depend on context if I saw a swastika on certain graves or even certain places I would know better provided I knew history.

Of course. I have no problem whatsoever with swastikas providing they date before Hitler's regime. Our own Baha'i Temple near Chicago has a swastika because it was a Hindu symbol. But we built most of that building before WWII. You can spot it just below the Star of David. Rather ironic in picture no. 3.

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/January-2007/The-Annotated-Bahai-Temple/

Baha'i architecture always looks so otherworldly.

 

[One Voice Among Many1]

By "my people" you mean the Cherokees, right?

I assume when @William67 says "my people," he is referring to only the Cherokee, but also to all Native Americans. Mitakuye Oyasin (All My Relations).

 

[One Voice Among Many1]

I will wave that flag anywhere I please. Don't like it, go somewhere else. In fact, I think I will drop the "bloody rag" of the US from the flagpole in front of my business and not only run up the battle flag, but also the 3rd National Flag of the Confederacy.

First of all, I am curious to know if you speak Tsalagi. Secondly, I stand with you for our people, and you know this means not just for the Cherokee, but for all of our NDN and other Indigenous relations. Third, I agree with you about the American rag. I do not own one and I never will own one. I will not tolerate having one any where near me. I can barely stand the sight of one. But we, respectfully, part ways when it concerns using the Confederate flag. And please know, brother, that I mean you no offense. We do not have to discuss this any further since we will not agree. I simply wanted to tell you that I appreciate your effort to stand up for our people. Wado danvtli.

 

[William67]

First of all, I am curious to know if you speak Tsalagi. Secondly, I stand with you for our people, and you know this means not just for the Cherokee, but for all of our NDN and other Indigenous relations. Third, I agree with you about the American rag. I do not own one and I never will own one. I will not tolerate having one any where near me. I can barely stand the sight of one. But we, respectfully, part ways when it concerns using the Confederate flag. And please know, brother, that I mean you no offense. We do not have to discuss this any further since we will not agree. I simply wanted to tell you that I appreciate your effort to stand up for our people. Wado danvtli.

I can speak Tsalagi a little, but I'm not fluent, as I did not grow up near our people. Rather, I grew up a few miles west of Charlotte, NC. TBH, most of what I learned I picked up from my grandfather and most of that was insults and "obscenities".

Three of my ancestors fought in the "Indian Brigade" in Thomas' Legion, so my feelings for the battle flag are a bit different. I could tell you some of the stories that have been passed down to me from the time of the Civil War. Our people shed blood for that flag, so I will never be ashamed of it and will proudly display that banner. Not only were we the only military unit not defeated during the war, we were the last to surrender, east of the Mississippi.

 

[William67]

No, blacks moved to northern cities for better opportunities and white families put their houses up for sale and moved to the suburbs. It didn't even matter if the black families were somewhat well off, they were black, and and lots of white people didn't want to live in neighborhoods like that.

Redlining was a FHA policy until the late 1960s. Of course white people left—as their neighborhoods became less white, they could only get mortgages in new white neighborhoods.



Whatever makes you feel good, but the United States of America is here to stay.



Baha'i architecture always looks so otherworldly.

The "US" will fall apart if the leftists have their way. If we have another 4-8 years of leftist control, it is a sure thing. Especially since Obama has almost single handedly destroyed our credit internationally. Can you imagine a national debt of over $40 trillion after Hillary or Comrade Bernie get done? lol I mean, you could seize every penny, in every bank account, in the "US" and still not make a real dent in the current debt. lol

As for your statement about "White Flight", well, that only proves my point that the people in the North were far more racist than Southerners. White southerners have lived beside blacks for centuries, and I'm not talking about slaves. Go and examine census records and you will find black interspersed among whites in many areas. It wasn't until "Reconstruction" that Southern whites and blacks "segregated" in areas. When Civil War veterans held their get together around the turn of the 19th/20th centuries, the "Yankee" organizers shunted Southern blacks off to an area with very little to no shelter. The old "Rebs" found out and brought them into their camp and provided them with shelter. But, you go ahead and believe what you want. You cant change some people's minds with facts...or even a war club.

 

[smaneck]

Baha'i architecture always looks so otherworldly.

Totally off topic, but if you want to see an 'otherwordly' temple look at the one we are building in Chile:

http://templo.bahai.cl/index_eng.htm

 

[smaneck]

Three of my ancestors fought in the "Indian Brigade" in Thomas' Legion, so my feelings for the battle flag are a bit different. I could tell you some of the stories that have been passed down to me from the time of the Civil War. Our people shed blood for that flag, so I will never be ashamed of it and will proudly display that banner. Not only were we the only military unit not defeated during the war, we were the last to surrender, east of the Mississippi.

Apparently they imagined they would get a fairer shake from the Confederacy than they did the federal government and for that reason allied with them. Not sure why they imagined this given the fact that it was Andrew Jackson, a southerner, who was responsible for their land being stolen in the first place. But the Cherokee had been operating slave plantations and many of their slaves accompanied them on the Trail of Tears. Stand Watie, the Cherokee Brigadier General for the Confederacy, had been a planter and slaveholder and shared the racial views of other southerners. He had also been one of the Cherokee leaders to sign the Treaty of New Echota allowing for their removal west of the Mississippi.

While the Cherokees led by Stand Waite may have been the last to surrender, the Cherokee nation was the first to dump a flag symbolic on their alliance with the Confederacy.

http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwo...onfederate-flag-natives-can-teach-america-how

 

[smaneck]

The "US" will fall apart if the leftists have their way. If we have another 4-8 years of leftist control, it is a sure thing. Especially since Obama has almost single handedly destroyed our credit internationally.

If our credit was bad the American dollar would not be so strong. The fact is that buying Treasury bonds was considered one of the safest havens for money during the recent recession and the international community snatched them up despite the fact they were paying almost no interest.

As for your statement about "White Flight", well, that only proves my point that the people in the North were far more racist than Southerners. White southerners have lived beside blacks for centuries, and I'm not talking about slaves.

Of course you are talking about slaves! Free blacks formed entirely separate communities. Where whites and blacks have lived side by side is when they were needed as servants, period.
But generally it is probably true that while southern racism wanted blacks near but not "up," northern racism didn't mind them "up" only so far as they weren't too near.

 

[The Cadet]

Remember, the civil war was also over state's rights.

Which rights, precisely? Which rights did all the southern states stand up to defend?

I love states that rally to support and be protected under the full breadth of the first amendment. I pray other states follow the example.

What, exactly, does this have to do with the first amendment?

No reverse racism is when the MAJORITY group are the victims pf racism such as the black care being played or the idea of "white Privilege" whatever that is.

...How is recognizing that, as a white person, you have it easier than if you had had the exact same starting conditions but had been black, racist? That's really all "white Privilege" means - the fact that you are white means that, on average, you have it a little bit easier than someone with a very similar life who happens to be black.

Especially since Obama has almost single handedly destroyed our credit internationally.

US treasury bond interest rates essentially determine how willing people are to invest in US debt. The lower the interest rate, the less yield they're willing to get in return for having a safe investment. Would you care to point out where Obama destroyed our credit internationally? It seems to me that people are basically throwing money at us, despite the interest rate being nearly zero.

 

[smaneck]

I assume when @William67 says "my people," he is referring to only the Cherokee, but also to all Native Americans. Mitakuye Oyasin (All My Relations).

What I was unsure about is whether he meant Native Americans or whites. You note his avatar of 111%. I believe that stands for a white patriot group. On their websites you'll see statements like "diversity being another term for white genocide."

 

[One Voice Among Many1]

What I was unsure about is whether he meant Native Americans or whites. You note his avatar of 111%. I believe that stands for a white patriot group. On their websites you'll see statements like "diversity being another term for white genocide."

I had no idea what his avatar meant. I did not any much attention to it before now.

 

[MoonofIsaiah]

Yes, but that does not mean that it means the same thing. I can be proud of being southern and still have no problem with blacks. Remember, the civil war was also over state's rights. Most in the south actually did not own slaves and some that did were actually black. In fact who SOLD the people into salvery their own people.

Also, it seems to me that this did not become a big issue until recently.[/quote] Yes it became a big issue when the lunatic that opened fire in a black church made news. Not that evil act itself. But rather that someone found an old picture he'd had taken, at least with PS these days we may wonder if it was actually a true picture, of the shooter and the Confederate flag.

After that the media initiated a campaign that found retailers banning the sales of anything Confederate flag motif related. And it snowballed from there.

You'll not find this thread to be educational on this subject. There are those who are on about the topic as a child stomping their feet screaming; the flag is racist, I hate it, it must be removed!
Then there are those that speak of the history behind the flag in rebuttal to that screed. And they're then replied to by those who say, oh really, what history exactly are you talking about?
Because they don't know. They just know the parroting of the left is, no flag! No rebel flag, no Confederate flag! It's evil!

This topic has been discussed here repeatedly. I checked. You'll note the same questions in those old threads are being repeated in this one. Indicating the opposition to the flag are demonstrating opposition to retaining the prior educational information about the flag, states rights, the first amendment issue, the fact that the flag may be seen as racist due to those that conflate the entire southern history to make it appear like that to themselves and for their own motives, etc...
Meaning that its a repeat of old threads wherein the opponents of the flag are first largely opponents of retaining information shared about the flag and history in prior threads.

This thread is going to accrue pages rehashing what's been done to death before.
If the Confederate flag can be removed from history and our contemporary sight today due to the history behind it, look for the American flag to be next on the targeted agenda of opponents of this country and its history. And for the same reasons. Lack of knowledge and refusal to have that ignorance educated.
This country is the bastion of freedom for the world. That's why we're told people desperately want to come here under any circumstances, legal or otherwise.

Meanwhile, within this country there is a movement that is evolving in size that wants to make this country less free. And it is the indigenous citizens and the immigrants at work to that end.

 

[Ajax 777]

The "US" will fall apart if the leftists have their way. If we have another 4-8 years of leftist control, it is a sure thing. Especially since Obama has almost single handedly destroyed our credit internationally. Can you imagine a national debt of over $40 trillion after Hillary or Comrade Bernie get done? lol I mean, you could seize every penny, in every bank account, in the "US" and still not make a real dent in the current debt. lol

As for your statement about "White Flight", well, that only proves my point that the people in the North were far more racist than Southerners. White southerners have lived beside blacks for centuries, and I'm not talking about slaves. Go and examine census records and you will find black interspersed among whites in many areas. It wasn't until "Reconstruction" that Southern whites and blacks "segregated" in areas. When Civil War veterans held their get together around the turn of the 19th/20th centuries, the "Yankee" organizers shunted Southern blacks off to an area with very little to no shelter. The old "Rebs" found out and brought them into their camp and provided them with shelter. But, you go ahead and believe what you want. You cant change some people's minds with facts...or even a war club.

Quoted.

For.

Truth.

 

[The Cadet]

Then there are those that speak of the history behind the flag in rebuttal to that screed.

The history behind the confederate battle flag is racism. It started as racism, it continued as racism, and with the exception of misguided attempts at whitewashing has always been about racism, white supremacy, and the confederacy. It is simply revisionism to pretend that this flag is about anything else.

Quoted.

For.

Truth.

Oh great, maybe you can tell me when exactly Obama destroyed the USA's credit internationally.