CSA Flag varient to stay in Mississippi

[smaneck]

Get your facts straight. Stand Waite was Western Cherokee.

So? He is the guy who was the last general to surrender during the Civil War. Thomas was only the last one in North Carolina.

There are reasons Eastern and Western Cherokee don't see eye to eye on some things.

When it came to supporting the Confederacy, they apparently agreed.

The Western Cherokee have also excluded "blacks" from their rolls, because it was not by choice that blacks went with them. The Western Cherokee wanted to leave their slaves behind, but whites forced them to take them.

Yet, they didn't free them. At the start of the Civil War 10% of the Western Cherokee owned slaves.

Unfortunately, many Western Cherokee tend to gravitate toward leftists mistakenly believing they will be "taken care of". And don't forget, the Western Cherokee basically threw away their "nation" believing they would be more accepted. There is no real Cherokee "res" in Oklahoma.

Leftists during the Civil War? What would that even mean?

 

[smaneck]

Didn't Bush start out with a five-and-a-half-trillion dollar surplus?

I don't think it was anywhere near that big but it was a surplus, the first in decades. Then Bush cut taxes and the deficit soared to 400 billion. It goes up to 1.4 trillion the first year Obama's first year in office but that was based on Bush's budget. Add to it the worst recession since the Great Depression. In any case, the deficit has been going down since 2011.

 

[AceHero]

The fact of the matter is that the Confederate flag is as racist or more so than the Swastika.

No, your opinion of the matter is.
,

smaneck's opinion of the Confederate flag is racist? How so?

 

[smaneck]

I'm was actually referring to the fact that Obama has destroyed our national credit rating, not the interest rate. Because of Obama, our credit rating, which was "AAA" was lowered.

Wrong, our credit rating went down because of the constant fighting between Congress and the President which had left government paralyzed.

That has nothing to do with the percentage banks charge. It is how easy it is for the US govt to borrow money. Two completely different things.

Except it remained easy for the US govt to borrow money. They don't set the interest rates for Treasury bonds, the market does. While stock markets plummeted after the down grade U.S. treasury bonds, which had been the subject of the downgrade, actually rose in price (which means down in interest rates) and the dollar gained in value against the Euro and the British pound which means we were considered the safest haven.

Actually, it isn't 111%, its 3%, which stands for the actual percentage of men who fought in the Revolution.

Ah, I thought those were two separate groups. Thanks for clarifying.

As for it being a "hate group", I assume that comes from the SPLC,

Didn't call it a 'hate' group, I called it a white patriot group. And I got my won impressions from visiting their facebook pages. If I'd gone to the SPLC website I'm sure I would have realized that the 111% and the three percenters were the same group. I'd heard about the 3 percenters from their support of the takeover of the Malheur Wildlife Refuge, but I thought 111% was a different group here in the South.

Interesting my comment brought on this tirade against the SPLC out of the blue. But since you mentioned them I went to their website and found their major objection against this group is due to their stirring up Islamophobia:

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2015/11/04/‘iii-percenters’-ride-wave-islamophobia-idaho-lead-anti-refugee-protests

It so happens I had just donated $41 to the SPLC in "honor" of the 41 days the gunmen spent in the Malheur Refuge. I thought the Bundys would appreciate that.

 

[William67]

Wrong, our credit rating went down because of the constant fighting between Congress and the President which had left government paralyzed.



Except it remained easy for the US govt to borrow money. They don't set the interest rates for Treasury bonds, the market does. While stock markets plummeted after the down grade U.S. treasury bonds, which had been the subject of the downgrade, actually rose in price (which means down in interest rates) and the dollar gained in value against the Euro and the British pound which means we were considered the safest haven.



Ah, I thought those were two separate groups. Thanks for clarifying.



Didn't call it a 'hate' group, I called it a white patriot group. And I got my won impressions from visiting their facebook pages. If I'd gone to the SPLC website I'm sure I would have realized that the 111% and the three percenters were the same group. I'd heard about the 3 percenters from their support of the takeover of the Malheur Wildlife Refuge, but I thought 111% was a different group here in the South.

Interesting my comment brought on this tirade against the SPLC out of the blue. But since you mentioned them I went to their website and found their major objection against this group is due to their stirring up Islamophobia:

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2015/11/04/‘iii-percenters’-ride-wave-islamophobia-idaho-lead-anti-refugee-protests

It so happens I had just donated $41 to the SPLC in "honor" of the 41 days the gunmen spent in the Malheur Refuge. I thought the Bundys would appreciate that.

That's ok. I made a much larger donation to the Bundy's defense. But go ahead and waste your money on a leftist propaganda group. The only people who take the SPLC seriously are leftists.

 

[William67]

So? He is the guy who was the last general to surrender during the Civil War. Thomas was only the last one in North Carolina.



When it came to supporting the Confederacy, they apparently agreed.



Yet, they didn't free them. At the start of the Civil War 10% of the Western Cherokee owned slaves.



Leftists during the Civil War? What would that even mean?

Actually, Thomas' Legion operated in Virginia, NC, and Tenn. Not only did they actively engage in combat, they also eliminated renegades, Yankee bandits (deserters), and other "police" duties. They attacked Waynesville, NC and the Yankees surrendered. After being convinced that Lee had surrendered, they released the Yankees and went home.

They weren't allowed to free them because whites didn't want a bunch of former slaves running around. So, the Cherokee had four choices, either free them and "adopt" them into the tribe, expel them once they arrived in "Indian Territory", keep them as slaves, or kill them. Seeing how the US govt never listened to the actual leaders of the tribe, why would the Cherokee ever side when them?

Leftists in the Civil War? Those would have been the people who believed in absolute loyalty to a politician or group as opposed to absolute loyalty to the Constitution. You know, as Stalin called them "useful idiots" and as they are known now, sheeple. Nothing has really changed.

 

[smaneck]

Leftists in the Civil War? Those would have been the people who believed in absolute loyalty to a politician or group as opposed to absolute loyalty to the Constitution.

LOL. That is seriously what you think a "leftist" is?

Let me give you a little history. The term 'leftist' comes out of the seating arrangements of Estates General around the time of the French Revolution. The nobility and the church leaders (First and Second Estates) were seated on the right while commoners (Third Estate) sat on the left.

A "Leftist" is then someone who represents the interests of the common people over the elites. Has nothing to do with 'absolute loyalty to a politician or group'. That would be more descriptive of these Patriot groups.

 

[smaneck]

It so happens I had just donated $41 to the SPLC in "honor" of the 41 days the gunmen spent in the Malheur Refuge. I thought the Bundys would appreciate that.

You'd better open your wallet some more. It seems the FEDs are now going after virtually everyone who was involved in the Cliven Bundy standoff.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/mar/03/donald-trump-cliven-bundy-government-standoff-nevada

My tax dollars at work!

 

[smaneck]

I assume that comes from the SPLC, which was founded by a former KKK lawyer.

By this you mean Morris Dees who once represented a KKK member? So did the ACLU. That doesn't make them KKK lawyers. It simply indicates they were willing to defend people's constitutional rights no matter who they were.

 

[Sistrin]

Who died in defense of slavery.

That isn't how they saw it. You can't present history passed through the prism of current politically correct notions.

At that time in American history the nation wasn't even viewed by most as a nation. People tied their identities to the individual states from which they hailed. Soldiers on both sides volunteered to fight for their states, because their state asked them to. As has been said prior the overwhelming vast majority of Confederate soldiers never owned slaves nor were directly involved in the slave trade. If you read their writings you find most of them couldn't have cared about the issue either way. That in itself may be an indictment, but it does not constitute support for the notion Confederate soldiers fought in defense of slavery. Men from Georgia joined the fight for much the same reason as men from New York.

You should have said this earlier:

In the end all soldiers fight for their brothers-in-arms. It is their leaders who throw these mens lives away for bad and selfish causes.

The causes of the American Civil War is a different issue from why soldiers chose to fight and die in it.

 

[The Cadet]

My family has flown the flag since the war. Its tradition. I understand that most "Mericans" have no real concept of tradition, but some of us do.

I'll take "no concept of tradition" over "a tradition of holding up the flag of a nation founded to uphold white supremacy and slavery" any day of the week, because one of those implies no past worth celebrating, and the other implies a past worth condemning being celebrated anyways.

Bull! Bush fought the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. When he left the debt was around $10 trillion, nearly $5 trillion of which came from previous administrations. Obama, after only 6 years had exploded the debt to over $17 trillion, most of which came from expansions to the welfare state and his theft of healthcare.

William, I feel the need to point out that I backed up my statement with both the words of S&P themselves and a study by the CBPP showing quite convincingly that the main things driving the debt up are the effects of the recession, the bush tax cuts, and the war. Simply saying "Nuh-Uh!" is pretty weak. Where did you hear that most of the debt came from expansions to the welfare state? What concrete expansions to the welfare state has Obama passed?

That's ok. I made a much larger donation to the Bundy's defense.

...Why in the world would you do something like that? "Hey, these guys violently occupied a government building under threats of violent resistance, were a huge nuisance to the town, and were eventually arrested. We should totally give them money for their defense!" Is there something I'm missing here?

 

[smaneck]

That isn't how they saw it. You can't present history passed through the prism of current politically correct notions.

I'm reading history through the states own declarations of independence and what they stated was their motivations. Now if you want to say that most of the soldiers themselves did not really agree with what their states had written, I can't really say. But obviously they were willing to die for it.

At that time in American history the nation wasn't even viewed by most as a nation.

It was certainly views as a nation by the rest of the world.

People tied their identities to the individual states from which they hailed.
Soldiers on both sides volunteered to fight for their states, because their state asked them to.

It may have been true in the South but it was not at all true in the North. My grandmother told me the story of two brothers in our family who had fought during the Civil War. One was an abolitionist before the war, the other joined the KKK afterwards. But both fought, she said, "to preserve the union." Now whether this antidote is true or not I think it is indicative of what the North thought they were fighting for, and it wasn't their individual states.

As has been said prior the overwhelming vast majority of Confederate soldiers never owned slaves nor were directly involved in the slave trade.

And yet they fought and died for a declaration of independence which explicitly stated that its purpose was not simply to preserve the institution of slavery but extend it.

The causes of the American Civil War is a different issue from why soldiers chose to fight and die in it.

Or maybe they didn't choose to fight and die at all. They were drafted and forced to fight whether they believed in what they were fighting for or not. The Confederacy instituted a draft a year before the federal government ever did.

But whatever. as that line from the Free State of Jones puts it, they didn't die with honor, they just died.

 

[smaneck]

...Why in the world would you do something like that? "Hey, these guys violently occupied a government building under threats of violent resistance, were a huge nuisance to the town, and were eventually arrested. We should totally give them money for their defense!" Is there something I'm missing here?

Yeah, they were fighting the federal government. In the eyes of these so-called "patriots" that is supposedly a good thing.