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Crucifixion and forgiveness, a non sequitur

Robert76

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The Old Testament law includes many things that Christians totally ignore; the New Testament makes no clear, declarative set of laws. So either Christians willfully live in sin, or else your definition is unclear.
The definition I gave was directly from the Bible, citing two verses, this is the word of God and is above criticism for clarity.

I'm going to skip over non-topic remarks you made and condense to what I believe is at the heart of what you're looking to know as from your OP:

In defending the non sequitur pointed out in the OP, you are bringing up another non sequitur.
Agreed, these are separate truths - my bad.
Romans 5:12, "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned"
Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

This very notion is the entire point in question for this thread. I'm asking you to explain how blood sacrifice logically or physically produces forgiveness of sins. Whether it's Jesus being executed for blasphemy or an animal having its throat slashed and then its carcass lit on fire, please explain how the seemingly pointless extinguishing of life results in forgiveness.

As far as I understand Christian theology, the accidental death of a lamb would not count as a sacrifice. Presumably, if Jesus had slipped on a banana peel and died then we would all be out of luck. To my knowledge, no effort has ever been made to explain the significance of the ritualistic aspect of death.
God's word states that death is the penalty for sin and with death, that sin is satisfied. Let's go back to Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." This explains the condition (sin), the penalty (death), and why Jesus' death on the cross is significant (eternal life). Add to this 1 Peter 3:18, "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit"

That is nowhere near a syllogism.
How about just asking for an explanation in layman's terms then? The answer can be found in Romans 6:23 and 1 Peter 3:18 (among others). This may not satisfy your requirements, but God is not called to defend Himself to the challenges invented by us who are sinful, rather, we are called to believe in Him and repent of our sins that we may have eternal life.

All have sinned, the penalty for sin is death, Jesus' death on the cross satisfied this penalty for all who will believe in Him, therefore, those who believe in Him do no have to suffer the penalty for sin.
 
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Lulav

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Well I gave it 10 minutes and I'm not giving it more. In those 10 minutes nothing relevant to the OP was addressed, and I doubt that two people who are already Christian would spontaneously decide to rationally investigate the core claims of their theology.
I'm sorry, I should have said to ignore the 'host' he was playing to the crowd, it gets lots better as he allows Jim to talk which he does later on and towards the end.

Jim, if you don't know, played Jesus in the Movie 'The Passion' and almost died several times during the filming. His life was changed that day and I've never seen anyone with more knowledge and deep sincere expression of their faith than this man.

What he talks about mainly is the Crucifixion and forgiveness which is what I thought you wanted to talk about and that's what he expresses better than anyone I've ever known.
 
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Nihilist Virus

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If you want a syllogism with the covenant framework assumed then it might look like this:
  1. God established a covenant relationship with man.
  2. The curse of covenant violation is death; the blessing of covenant faithfulness is eternal life.
  3. Adam, our covenant mediator, violated the covenant and merited death for himself and his progeny.
  4. Furthermore, every son of Adam has personally violated the covenant and merited death.
  5. Therefore, all people are legally liable to death before their creator and have lost all of their rights in relation to him. He owes them nothing except for cosmic eviction.
That syllogism proves our being under the covenant curse based upon a covenant framework. Mankind is in a pickle. Once the above is established we can then demonstrate the efficacy of the cross:
  1. God, in mercy, has provided a new Adam (new covenant representative) for all who would cling to him.
  2. This "new Adam" is Jesus Christ.
  3. Jesus, by his suffering unto death, bore the curse of the covenant for his people and there is no longer any curse for them.
  4. Jesus, by his perfect obedience to God's law, fulfilled the covenant obligations for his people and opened up the floodgates of God's blessing for them (eternal life).
  5. Therefore, Jesus' representation is necessary and sufficient for propitiating the wrath of God and for meriting an eternal inheritance for all those who would cling to him.
The cross is included in Jesus' representation as a centerpiece, but his representation also includes his incarnation, his entire life of obedience, his resurrection, and his ascension into heaven and his pleading for us there at the right hand of the Father.

So there is certainly a logic to the cross, but one must assume a covenantal framework (which includes the representational and mediatorial relationship between God and man).

In your very last premise, you slip in "necessary" which, obviously, is the entire point in question. In order for the crucifixion to be necessary, you must explain why God could not forgive us without it. I don't see where you made any attempt to do so. Again, the offended party is allowed to uphold his defunct obligation in a covenant if he desires.

While I would dispute the notion that God owes us "nothing", I can grant it and still quite easily point out that God is nevertheless able to give us anything.


We may entertain the notion, for a moment, that God could allow his creatures to persist in sinful rebellion. It would be analogous to a parent continuing to provide for a wayward and rebellious child from a distance. The child wants nothing to do with the parent and refuses to submit to the parent's authority, but the parent continues to pay all the kid's bills.

But in the case of God it would be that he decides to continue to maintain our lives, allow our hearts to beat, supply us with oxygen, give us his land to live on, cause the earth to produce crops for us, cause the animals that we eat to continue to bear offspring, and support us in everything that we do. Even though we refuse to submit to his authority or even acknowledge his existence or give thanks to him for the countless ways that he upholds our lives.

God may do this if he so desires. But he is by no means obliged to do this and he has told us that he will not do this. He will kick all of his delinquent tenants off of his land and he has every right to do so. This should cause us to fear God and not to ask questions like "why can't God just forgive me?"

But amazingly God does desire to forgive us. More than this, he desires to reconcile us to himself in eternal love and friendship. Of course, he will not share his glory with another and he will not stop being God and so we must, if we are to be reconciled, submit to his authority. So God is not only willing to forgive us but he also has determined to make a full end of sin.

Off topic.

Yet God is just and he will justly punish all sin, like he said that he would. God will not simply forget about the sin of his people and punish the sin of others. How would that be fair?

Since when was God concerned with fairness? Jeffrey Dahmer was a rapist, cannibal, murder, and necrophiliac; he accepted Jesus in prison shortly before being murdered by other inmates and therefore resides in heaven. Conversely, Alan Turing invented the computer, helped saved the world from the Nazis, and was chemically castrated by his government simply for being homosexual; he was an atheist therefore is in hell.


Could a human judge be partial by condemning criminals that he doesn't like and pardoning those whom he likes and still be considered just? No.

Yet God condemns men who fail to believe in a certain proposition and pardons those who accept the proposition. Even granting the non sequitur of Jesus dying for our sins, we still are left with a judge who lets his friends off the hook.

I suppose that can be another non sequitur: belief in a certain proposition makes the conditions apply, whereas lack of belief nullifies the conditions.

All sin must be punished or none at all. So the sin of God's people is punished in their mediator Jesus Christ.

God would not be unjust to forgive sin purely as an act of his own will because doing so does not violate his end of the covenant. We've gone over this several times and instead of addressing it you're re-dressing it with different phrasing.

@Nihilist Virus When you speak of forgiveness of sins here, does this entail reconciliation? To put it another way, are you wondering why God cannot simply forgive and let us persist in rebellion? Or do you understand forgiveness to also include our repentance and submission to his will and vow to obey him (reconciliation)?

I fail to see the difference. Whether God forgives us as an act of will or through the non sequitur of Jesus' execution, we are still forgiven while persisting in sin.

Or are you sinless?
 
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Tree of Life

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Since when was God concerned with fairness? Jeffrey Dahmer was a rapist, cannibal, murder, and necrophiliac; he accepted Jesus in prison shortly before being murdered by other inmates and therefore resides in heaven. Conversely, Alan Turing invented the computer, helped saved the world from the Nazis, and was chemically castrated by his government simply for being homosexual; he was an atheist therefore is in hell.

God is just and fair. He has and always will be concerned about justice and fairness. Let's assume that Dahmer is in heaven and Turing is in hell (we don't know the secret thoughts of either of these men). If Dahmer is in heaven it's because Jesus was punished for his horrific crimes and because Jesus' righteousness has been given to Dahmer as a gift. So Dahmer's sins have been justly punished through the covenant mediator.

If Turing is in hell it's not because he invented the computer or helped to win WWII. It's because he too has sins of his own and is condemned for them. Either way, sin is condemned and punished.

Yet God condemns men who fail to believe in a certain proposition and pardons those who accept the proposition. Even granting the non sequitur of Jesus dying for our sins, we still are left with a judge who lets his friends off the hook.

I didn't get let off the hook. I was crucified in Christ.

God would not be unjust to forgive sin purely as an act of his own will because doing so does not violate his end of the covenant. We've gone over this several times and instead of addressing it you're re-dressing it with different phrasing.

God would be unjust to punish some sin but not all.

I fail to see the difference. Whether God forgives us as an act of will or through the non sequitur of Jesus' execution, we are still forgiven while persisting in sin.

Or are you sinless?

No. Forgiveness and reconciliation are a package deal. God forgives all my sin now, but he also gives me the grace to repent and he cleanses my life of sin. One day I will be without sin. So "persisting in sin" would not be an accurate description of someone who is truly saved.
 
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Chriliman

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The things you said are there for all onlookers to see. If you try to edit them, your words are preserved in my quotes of you and your edit timestamps will be plainly visible.

Why would I try to edit them when I'm still using them to make my point?

You're free to define sin however you like in this thread, so long as your definition can be used by me to accurately determine what is or isn't sin. If you want to change your definition now, go ahead - just don't deny what you've said.

I'm not denying what I've said, but you haven't been able to show that it's wrong, your just opposing it for some reason that's not well defined. How do you define sin?

It's OK to say, "I said X but now I want to change that to Y." What you can't do is say, "I never said X."

I don't want to say any of that. I still want to say sin is doing something that is wrong, whether you realize it's wrong or not in the moment. Hence what I said earlier:

Doing something in action or thought that you either know is wrong(this can include not doing something that you know is right) or come to realize is wrong

Obviously, if you don't know that what you're doing is wrong then in that moment it's not sin to you, but it may be sin to someone else who knows it's wrong and they may point it out to you. When you come to realize it's wrong then it's sin to you as well, and should be repented of.

2 Samuel 12. God tortures a baby to teach David a lesson. I guess that's the "better outcome" for David but I fail to see the better outcome for the infant. If the "better outcome" for the baby is that he is in heaven now, presumably because he died before reaching the "age of reason," then abortion and infanticide belong in your category of "objective good."

Incidentally, Numbers 5 gives details on how to perform a ritualistic, magical abortion. But it's not pro-choice because the woman has no choice in the matter.

Also, the conquered Jews fantasized about smashing Babylonian infants against rocks. This is recorded in Psalms, a book of worship.

In summary, Christians cannot contend that abortion and infanticide are intrinsically wrong.

As I said before, God will not do anything without good reason or a better outcome in mind. We're the ones who tend to do things without thinking it through first and God and others end up suffering as a result of foolishness.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Wow... an actual attempt!

But could you please define "holiness" and "holy" so I can properly "tear your argument to shreds"? Also, can you define "eternal justice"? Premise 7 appears to contain a non sequitur for any definition I use as a placeholder.

Ok. My definition for "holy" is from the New International Dictionary of the Bible (1987), the first paragraph of the entry being as follows:

Usually translations of words derived from a Hebrew root qadash and Greek hag-. The basic meaning of qadash is "separateness, withdrawal." It is first applied to God and is early associated with ideas of purity and righteousness. Long before the prophetic period the ethical content is plain. Greek hag- is an equivalent of qadash, and its history is similar. Beginning as an attribute of deity, the hag- family of words developed two stems, one meaning "holy," the other "pure." The use of words of the family in the LXX to translate the qadash family resulted in a great development of their ethical sense, which was never clear in classical Greek. What became increasingly evident in the OT is overwhelmingly explicit in the NT; that holiness means the pure, loving nature of God, separate from evil, aggressively seeking to universalize itself; that this character is inherent in places, times, and institutions intimately associated with worship; and that holiness is to characterize human beings who have entered into personal relationship with God. (p. 445)
As for "eternal justice," the meaning for this is implied and follows from 2, and this term is intended (by me) to mean that God is just in all ways and at all 'moments' in His eternal existence. Obviously, the application of justice, if needed, will only apply when and if other [created] beings are involved in interaction with God and have caused relational infractions(s) to occur.

As to Premise 7...I already knew this would be the 'balking point.' I purposely wrote it to be seemingly paradoxical, yet I do think it is cogent and follows from the inherent structures of the previous premises. Be that as it may, shred away! :rolleyes:

Peace,
2PhiloVoid
 
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The definition I gave was directly from the Bible, citing two verses, this is the word of God and is above criticism for clarity.

I'm going to skip over non-topic remarks you made and condense to what I believe is at the heart of what you're looking to know as from your OP:

Agreed, these are separate truths - my bad.
Romans 5:12, "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned"
Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

My confusion is warranted because on the one hand you're saying that sin is the violation of a set of edicts put to paper by a group of men who would be criminals in any nation on earth today, but on the other hand you're saying that sin is inherited biologically.


God's word states that death is the penalty for sin and with death, that sin is satisfied. Let's go back to Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." This explains the condition (sin), the penalty (death), and why Jesus' death on the cross is significant (eternal life). Add to this 1 Peter 3:18, "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit"

This doesn't explain why God couldn't have just said, "I forgive everything."

How about just asking for an explanation in layman's terms then?

No thanks.

The answer can be found in Romans 6:23 and 1 Peter 3:18 (among others). This may not satisfy your requirements, but God is not called to defend Himself to the challenges invented by us who are sinful, rather, we are called to believe in Him and repent of our sins that we may have eternal life.

God is not called to defend himself. Right. That's what apologetics are for - men defending God because God won't defend himself. If you don't intend to take up your sword in this battle, then you're in the wrong forum.

All have sinned, the penalty for sin is death, Jesus' death on the cross satisfied this penalty for all who will believe in Him, therefore, those who believe in Him do no have to suffer the penalty for sin.

Sure, but why isn't an "I forgive you" from God sufficient?
 
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I'm sorry, I should have said to ignore the 'host' he was playing to the crowd, it gets lots better as he allows Jim to talk which he does later on and towards the end.

Jim, if you don't know, played Jesus in the Movie 'The Passion' and almost died several times during the filming. His life was changed that day and I've never seen anyone with more knowledge and deep sincere expression of their faith than this man.

What he talks about mainly is the Crucifixion and forgiveness which is what I thought you wanted to talk about and that's what he expresses better than anyone I've ever known.

At what timestamp does he get into that topic?
 
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God is just and fair. He has and always will be concerned about justice and fairness. Let's assume that Dahmer is in heaven and Turing is in hell (we don't know the secret thoughts of either of these men). If Dahmer is in heaven it's because Jesus was punished for his horrific crimes and because Jesus' righteousness has been given to Dahmer as a gift. So Dahmer's sins have been justly punished through the covenant mediator.

If Turing is in hell it's not because he invented the computer or helped to win WWII. It's because he too has sins of his own and is condemned for them. Either way, sin is condemned and punished.

You just got through saying that a judge would not be fair if he condemned criminals but pardoned his friends. And then here you lead with, "God is just and fair." I can only conclude that you must disavow the "personal relationship with Jesus" terminology, then, because otherwise you'd be saying that a rapist cannibal was pardoned because of his personal relationship with Jesus whereas a war hero was condemned because he didn't have such a relationship.



I didn't get let off the hook. I was crucified in Christ.

No you weren't.

God would be unjust to punish some sin but not all.

You keep coming back to this "justice" issue. Justice for who, for what? The justice you're referring to is the idea that God was wronged because humanity broke the covenant. AGAIN, God, as the betrayed party, is free to uphold the defunct conditions of the covenant. He doesn't have to, but he can.

So until you refute this point, the crucifixion is logically disconnected from forgiveness.

No. Forgiveness and reconciliation are a package deal. God forgives all my sin now, but he also gives me the grace to repent and he cleanses my life of sin. One day I will be without sin. So "persisting in sin" would not be an accurate description of someone who is truly saved.

OK... "persisting in sin" is an inaccurate description of a perpetual sinner. These gymnastics of yours are getting tiresome.
 
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Why would I try to edit them when I'm still using them to make my point?



I'm not denying what I've said, but you haven't been able to show that it's wrong, your just opposing it for some reason that's not well defined. How do you define sin?



I don't want to say any of that. I still want to say sin is doing something that is wrong, whether you realize it's wrong or not in the moment. Hence what I said earlier:



Obviously, if you don't know that what you're doing is wrong then in that moment it's not sin to you, but it may be sin to someone else who knows it's wrong and they may point it out to you. When you come to realize it's wrong then it's sin to you as well, and should be repented of.



As I said before, God will not do anything without good reason or a better outcome in mind. We're the ones who tend to do things without thinking it through first and God and others end up suffering as a result of foolishness.

If something can be a sin to me but not a sin to you, then sin is not objective by definition. This is why, back in post 26, I said,

So then, according to your definitions, sin and moral goodness don't necessarily have anything to do with one another.


You've been lost ever since, and you're only talking to me. Meanwhile I'm having a debate on half a dozen different fronts and yet still I can keep track of what you're saying better than you can, apparently. I don't think your theology is sufficiently formulated for your participation here.
 
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Ok. My definition for "holy" is from the New International Dictionary of the Bible (1987), the first paragraph of the entry being as follows:

Usually translations of words derived from a Hebrew root qadash and Greek hag-. The basic meaning of qadash is "separateness, withdrawal." It is first applied to God and is early associated with ideas of purity and righteousness. Long before the prophetic period the ethical content is plain. Greek hag- is an equivalent of qadash, and its history is similar. Beginning as an attribute of deity, the hag- family of words developed two stems, one meaning "holy," the other "pure." The use of words of the family in the LXX to translate the qadash family resulted in a great development of their ethical sense, which was never clear in classical Greek. What became increasingly evident in the OT is overwhelmingly explicit in the NT; that holiness means the pure, loving nature of God, separate from evil, aggressively seeking to universalize itself; that this character is inherent in places, times, and institutions intimately associated with worship; and that holiness is to characterize human beings who have entered into personal relationship with God. (p. 445)
As for "eternal justice," the meaning for this is implied and follows from 2, and this term is intended (by me) to mean that God is just in all ways and at all 'moments' in His eternal existence. Obviously, the application of justice, if needed, will only apply when and if other [created] beings are involved in interaction with God and have caused relational infractions(s) to occur.

As to Premise 7...I already knew this would be the 'balking point.' I purposely wrote it to be seemingly paradoxical, yet I do think it is cogent and follows from the inherent structures of the previous premises. Be that as it may, shred away! :rolleyes:

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

Thanks, but this seems pretty circular. From that paragraph I can only see that "holy" is synonymous with "righteous," and righteous is left undefined. Filling that in for myself, I assume that righteous means "without sin." But you never tried to define sin. And there is no way, as far as I know, to define sin at this point without closing the loop of circularity or else defining sin in some rigid way which will unavoidably cause God to be a sinner. Name a sin, God's done it. So all I can get from "holy" is just some vague notion of "divine" which adds to our list of synonyms describing nothing.

To be fair, this is a problem that plagues not only every ideology, but every idea. Hence my nihilism. Every word is either undefined or circularly defined, and there is no escaping this whatsoever.

Now, I'm not asking you to solve this unsolvable issue, but I insist that you do what is necessary to give your terms an unambiguous meaning. For example, I know what a toad is - regardless of the fundamental problems that go with definitions - so we can talk about toads. But what can we say about holiness?
 
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Chriliman

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If something can be a sin to me but not a sin to you, then sin is not objective by definition. This is why, back in post 26, I said,

So then, according to your definitions, sin and moral goodness don't necessarily have anything to do with one another.


You've been lost ever since, and you're only talking to me. Meanwhile I'm having a debate on half a dozen different fronts and yet still I can keep track of what you're saying better than you can, apparently. I don't think your theology is sufficiently formulated for your participation here.

For example; it may be wrong for someone to drink alcohol because they know it may cause harm to themselves or someone else, they lack responsibility when drinking, but it would not be wrong for me to drink because I know I can be responsible. However, murdering someone is always wrong no matter who does it. See the difference? Can you also see how both scenarios have to do with moral goodness?

I do appreciate that you can carry on multiple conversations at once, but that doesn't mean your still fully thinking things through on all fronts. Maybe you should focus a little more so you can understand better, just a suggestion :)
 
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For example; it may be wrong for someone to drink alcohol because they know it may cause harm to themselves or someone else, they lack responsibility when drinking, but it would not be wrong for me to drink because I know I can be responsible. However, murdering someone is always wrong no matter who does it. See the difference? Can you also see how both scenarios have to do with moral goodness?

I do appreciate that you can carry on multiple conversations at once, but that doesn't mean your still fully thinking things through on all fronts. Maybe you should focus a little more so you can understand better, just a suggestion :)

Fine, ignoring the fact that God has murdered people, you're still left with the fundamental problem that the category of "sin" and "objective moral wrongs" are not the same category, by your own design. So your incredulity when I pointed this out betrays your lack of thoroughness.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Thanks, but this seems pretty circular. From that paragraph I can only see that "holy" is synonymous with "righteous," and righteous is left undefined. Filling that in for myself, I assume that righteous means "without sin." But you never tried to define sin. And there is no way, as far as I know, to define sin at this point without closing the loop of circularity or else defining sin in some rigid way which will unavoidably cause God to be a sinner. Name a sin, God's done it. So all I can get from "holy" is just some vague notion of "divine" which adds to our list of synonyms describing nothing.
In regard to the essence of sin, I just used an alternative term that provides insinuations of it's own: "relational infraction." Of course, the person affected by relational infraction(s) is God, and this is the case whether the infraction was made against God Himself or against one of His created beings, i.e. a fellow human being. So, in this case, all sins are against God Himself, whether directly or indirectly, and not against some mysterious, speciously platonic, moral standard.

To be fair, this is a problem that plagues not only every ideology, but every idea. Hence my nihilism. Every word is either undefined or circularly defined, and there is no escaping this whatsoever.
Yes, you're right [to some extent], and this is why the study of various analytic philosophers can be of interest, even if they may not solve all the problems between meaning and reference that we'd like. But, I'm not going to get into all of that here.

Now, I'm not asking you to solve this unsolvable issue, but I insist that you do what is necessary to give your terms an unambiguous meaning. For example, I know what a toad is - regardless of the fundamental problems that go with definitions - so we can talk about toads. But what can we say about holiness?
We can only say what we can say through the bits of revelation given through the Church and somewhat definitively through the writers of the Bible. However, it seems to me that the Epistemic Indicia within the Bible tell us that God is holding back some elements we might need to fully systematize any theology, and so we will not be able to work out the full ontology for these answers. They will remain theological pretzels as God intended.

Think of it this way, NV: Revelation is a subset of God's infinite set of knowledge. (Deuteronomy 29:29)

Peace,
2PhiloVoid
 
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Chriliman

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Fine, ignoring the fact that God has murdered people,

How do you know God wasn't justified in taking life? Murder is always unjustified killing, not something God is willing to do, but I understand you and I have different views of God's true character.

you're still left with the fundamental problem that the category of "sin" and "objective moral wrongs" are not the same category, by your own design.

It'd still be objectively wrong for the other guy to drink since he knows he's irresponsible when drinking. If he knew he was a responsible drinker then it'd be different, obviously.

So your incredulity when I pointed this out betrays your lack of thoroughness.

I do refuse to believe false claims.

Anyhow, you can't insinuate that I'm actually wrong(sinning) when you yourself don't believe in objective wrongs(sins). You undermine yourself when you do that.
 
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Nihilist Virus

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In regard to the essence of sin, I just used an alternative term that provides insinuations of it's own: "relational infraction." Of course, the person affected by relational infraction(s) is God, and this is the case whether the infraction was made against God Himself or against one of His created beings, i.e. a fellow human being. So, in this case, all sins are against God Himself, whether directly or indirectly, and not against some mysterious, speciously platonic, moral standard.

So if all sins are ultimately infractions against God, why can't God forgive sin as an act of will?

Yes, you're right [to some extent],

There is no extent to which I'm not right about nihilism.

and this is why the study of various analytic philosophers can be of interest, even if they may not solve all the problems between meaning and reference that we'd like. But, I'm not going to get into all of that here.

OK, no problem.

We can only say what we can say through the bits of revelation given through the Church and somewhat definitively through the writers of the Bible. However, it seems to me that the Epistemic Indicia within the Bible tell us that God is holding back some elements we might need to fully systematize any theology, and so we will not be able to work out the full ontology for these answers. They will remain theological pretzels as God intended.

Ummm, so, you knew this was unsolvable, and yet you postulated a syllogism anyway. Do I need to even bother refuting your argument, then?

Think of it this way, NV: Revelation is a subset of God's infinite set of knowledge. (Deuteronomy 29:29)

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

OK, so if we are playing clue and I know who is holding which cards and I know who murdered whom with what and where, and if I know that you have insufficient information to propose who did it and how, then you are unreasonable - even if correct by luck - to believe that you have the answer.
 
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Nihilist Virus

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How do you know God wasn't justified in taking life? Murder is always unjustified killing, not something God is willing to do, but I understand you and I have different views of God's true character.

OK, so according to you there is a context in which one who is not under duress is justified in torturing an infant.


It'd still be objectively wrong for the other guy to drink since he knows he's irresponsible when drinking. If he knew he was a responsible drinker then it'd be different, obviously.

You're literally telling me that sometimes X is objectively wrong, and sometimes X isn't objectively wrong. Are we both speaking the same language?



I do refuse to believe false claims.

That would make you a skeptic.

Anyhow, you can't insinuate that I'm actually wrong(sinning) when you yourself don't believe in objective wrongs(sins). You undermine yourself when you do that.

I'm assuming the existence of God and sin for the purposes of this thread. Did you read the OP? You should know that by now. But, by all means, you can decline those freebies and prove your case from scratch. But I won't hold my breath because you've given no indication that you intend to offer a logical argument of any kind. You can't even keep your definitions straight: you're now using a parenthetical clarification to suggest that objective wrongs are sins when that directly contradicts the very first definition of sin you gave.

Every single back-and-forth between us results in your position being utterly eviscerated. Do everyone a favor - me, you, and any onlookers - and review our conversation to see what I'm talking about.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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@Nihilist Virus

You seem to try and exploit the difficulties inherent in classification and definition. You say you know what a Toad is, but do you really?
Toad is a popular classification of certain frogs, esspecially of Bufonidae, but there is no such group in scientific nomenclature. One group's toad is another's frog and people differ on whether size or leathery skin or shorter legs or what have you, is required. It is polythetic, but such classifications are nested in one another and often fuzzy borders, like classifying monotremes as mammals as another example.

There are popular concepts of Holy and Sin, there are technical ones. These overlap but aren't the same. Often the technical ones differ markedly. It is like animal classification, for before Linnaeus, Aristotle classified Cetaceans separate from mammals and most segmented groups together. Now with cladistics, we rewrite our taxonomy once again. Why do you expect such precision from Religion when the most basic of the sciences cannot even deliver it, even more so with popular uses of terms?

Ludwig Wittgenstein adressed this in his language theory, which simplistically is often put as "meaning is use". A definition does not alter meaning: it is deductively derived therefrom and creates a new abstract concept of the 'definition of X'. This is like your toad. You know what a toad is, but I doubt you would be able to define it in such a precise way, and when seeing a toad, you likely would not reach for your definitional armamentarium to decide whether an amphibian was one or not. Likewise, with Holy and Sin, and while addressing concepts couched in those terms, you either have to apply their inherent meaning in the context of the sentence or culturally, or rope in external definition, but neither would allow the sort you are insisting upon before addressing an attempted syllogism. It is specious to expect it to, and being a former Christian and I assume culturally western, you understand the concept even if its reificatory definition is not necessarily evident. The path you trod would otherwise eradicate all meaning presented in language that can be ambigiously understood or indeterminate and therefore leave all discussion moot outside of highly abstract systems like Mathematics.

Seeing though that you are seeking a syllogistic answer, I would point you to Aristotle, the father thereof. You would address this in the manner of Apodeixis, as he would call it. We Christians know Sin exists, we know Christ forgave it and that the Crucifixion was integral to Atonement. The operative method of Atonement is immaterial to know it works, just like I can drive a car without understanding the internal combustion engine.
The Material cause is Jesus and His suffering; the Formal cause is the Crucifixion; the Efficient cause is our Sin and Christ's sinlessness and the Final cause is Atonement. If we cannot agree each of these, then it cannot be placed in a syllogistic framework. For to say A thus B, etc. assumes that agreement is present already on the validity of A for instance, so that the logical interdependance of the concepts or not, can be investigated. This courtesy you seem not to have extended to us, so to argue the concept until you accept it and then syllogistically present it to you, is beyond the scope of the reasonable.

My 2 cents though: I know that the Crucifixion is the operable event in history that brings about Atonement. I know many theories of Atonement, such as Poenal Substitution, Moral Influence, Scapegoat, Christus Victor, etc. Many of them aren't mutually exclusive. They may all be right, they may all be wrong. This does not change the fact of Atonement on the Cross; that I cannot properly describe its minutiae; for this is again the dichotomy between the real use of something and the abstraction thereof. To syllogistically present it, is no different from explaining how Gravity makes a stone fall. I know it does, I can give clever ways to describe it and support it, but I cannot definitively and exhaustively prove it; it is assertoric after all; without axiomatic appeals or ignoring the basic teleological question of why it does so.
 
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Lily of Valleys

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So if the punishment for sin is eternal separation from God, then how did Jesus take on our sin if he was not eternally separated from God?
Jesus was not eternally separated from God because He is God. But He did go through death before He rose from the dead.
 
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Chriliman

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OK, so according to you there is a context in which one who is not under duress is justified in torturing an infant.

It's wrong to torture an infant unless you somehow know the torture will somehow benefit them later or they'll be worse off if you don't torture them, but if that's the case then it can't be called torture, rather necessary suffering to bring about the greater good. These are things only God can know because he knows the beginning from the end.

You're literally telling me that sometimes X is objectively wrong, and sometimes X isn't objectively wrong. Are we both speaking the same language?

Yes, it depends on the objectively existing person's behavior in relation to other objectively existing people. If there behavior is bad or hurtful, then it's objectively affecting others in a negative way i.e. objectively wrong. You seem to be having difficulty understanding this important point.

That would make you a skeptic.

Nothing wrong with skepticism as long as you're willing to accept the truth when it presents itself, otherwise you're just a cynic.

I'm assuming the existence of God and sin for the purposes of this thread. Did you read the OP? You should know that by now. But, by all means, you can decline those freebies and prove your case from scratch. But I won't hold my breath because you've given no indication that you intend to offer a logical argument of any kind. You can't even keep your definitions straight: you're now using a parenthetical clarification to suggest that objective wrongs are sins when that directly contradicts the very first definition of sin you gave.

I defined sin as doing something that you know is wrong or come to realize is wrong after doing it. When I say wrong, I mean objectively wrong.

Every single back-and-forth between us results in your position being utterly eviscerated. Do everyone a favor - me, you, and any onlookers - and review our conversation to see what I'm talking about.

The problem is that you don't seem willing to actually think about what I'm saying and either show that it's wrong or agree with it. If I don't see a thoughtful attempt at understanding in your next response then I'll have to say goodbye for now.
 
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