Cross Dressing

[Saleena]

Yeah agreed and it's like my other shirts I couldn't even bend down to write stuff down with out my erm showing unless I wanted tips >_> *innocent whistle*

 

[Cute Tink]

Ya but guys shouldn't be palling around in women's clothing, that is too close to homosexuality and is against God. Cross dressing, even accounting for cultural standards, is rejecting your gender and trying to DESIGN another which God did not make you in and you were not born with so its actually rejecting God.

Cross dressing is nothing like homosexuality. Nothing at all. What you wear has nothing to do with what you are attracted to.

If you think God is so willing to micromanage your existence to the point that he's going to sit there and decide your sex (not gender, sex is physical, gender is mental), then why isn't he also fixing problems that develop, especially those which end up causing the death of the baby? That seems very, very strange to me. Why are there hermaphrodites? Intersex people? That does not make sense at all to me and I look forward to your explanation, because if God is micromanaging our development, then He seems very particular about deciding most people's sex (yet not all) and must have some random purpose for having all those other birth defects out there, even to the point where the baby cannot survive. I look forward to your explanation, but I'm going to offer up one of my own.

God has nothing to do with our development. I don't believe he exists at all, but that's beside the point in this discussion. The only thing that really makes sense to me is that nature takes its course and we end up with errors and those errors manifest in either physical defects or mental defects sometimes. Whether that means that a baby is born with a heart defect, without a brain, with a cleft lip, indeterminate external sex organs, both sex organs or a mismatched sex and gender, all are developed because nature isn't perfect and things end up screwed up.

Last point, "cross dressing" may or may not have anything to do with your gender. Technically, cross dressing is when you dress in clothes meant for the opposite sex. Whether or not it matches your gender is a different matter. You would consider me a cross dresser, because I wear female clothing. Your word choice, though, would say that I'm cross dressing right now, because my gender is female and I'm dressed male. However, I don't consider myself a cross dresser. I only dress male to a) get by at work for now and b) alleviate the teasing of my children at school.

And yes, there is a huge difference between a cross dresser and a transsexual.

 

[Paradoxum]

Besides just for comfort? (I assume you mean when I try to be convincing as a guy?)

I do it because I feel like I'm someone different. I feel like a character that I can make up, and be more interesting.

I do it because most people get extremely uncomfortable around a person if they can't immediately discern their gender by glancing at them (I like to mess with people!).

At the same time I kind of wish it was more controversial for a woman to go around in men's clothes, because I also do it for my friend (who is a man and very much likes to wear dresses). He's scared of expressing himself in public, and I want him to know that it's OK (He's got wonderful fashion sense, and just doesn't take well to men's clothes. Doesn't think they're very creative).

I assumed it would be for fun. I can imagine it being fun. When I was younger I used to play games where we would pretend to be other characters... probably till an older age than most people.

My hair is probably too long to try something like that though, etc. And I'd get embarrassed.

 

[Cearbhall]

NO WAY is cross dressing okay. Men are men and women are women. I already see enough guys starring at me in lingerie, I don't need them wearing it too.

What does it matter to you what undergarments people wear? Really? I can't imagine that anyone wears lingerie outside of a gay pride parade or strip club, which no one is forcing you to visit.

Your statement makes no sense, regardless.

If you have ever been in a lingerie shop, you know that guys are there following us around all the time.

So why would it be an issue for a man to try on lingerie in that situation? Do you plan on following him around?

 

[Saleena]

I think she is afraid to catch the gay.

 

[Cearbhall]

Ya but guys shouldn't be palling around in women's clothing, that is too close to homosexuality and is against God.

Did you never learn the difference between sexual orientation and gender? Switching undergarments doesn't bring you any closer to doing the dirty with someone of the same sex.

And what about women and pants? Those only recently became women's clothing.

Cross dressing, even accounting for cultural standards, is rejecting your gender and trying to DESIGN another which God did not make you in and you were not born with so its actually rejecting God.

So you also never learned the difference between sex and gender. Great.

 

[jennimatts]

...If a guy wants to wear stiletto heels and a flowery dress (above his hairy man legs), he is free to do so, but I should be able to think he looks ridiculous without being branded cross-phobic, or whatever the appropriate term is...

Oh, you're such a transvestiphobe.

 

[Cearbhall]

Never frankly got the whole "modern Western gender roles were designed by God" thing, honestly.

No kidding. It's so sickeningly ethnocentric. Western gender roles, family structure, clothing...Victorian times were nothing like Middle Eastern biblical times, for crying out loud.

But to actually try to disguise yourself or your gender (badly) to become the other then I thats way too much and is not ok.

So if a MTF transgender person wears men's clothing, she's making a mistake because she's going against her gender identity?

I think you meant to say sex.

 

[jennimatts]

I think she is afraid to catch the gay.

Some people react strongly to things they see as a personal weakness / temptation, so maybe a bit of truth to that.

 

[Saleena]

I am at least glad there are other allies here too.

 

[Skaloop]

Ehhh... Me personally, I wouldn't wear men's clothes.. I don't even like pants. But I guess if you wear a man's shirt and your not intending to dress like a man, your just wanting to wear what commfy then thats ok. But to actually try to disguise yourself or your gender (badly) to become the other then I thats way too much and is not ok.

So which one of these two is badly disguising their gender?

 

[jennimatts]

...I should be able to think he looks ridiculous...

A year or two ago I was at a city park on a Sunday afternoon and saw a man wearing a skirt, fishnet hose and high heel boots. Certainly way outside of cultural norms, but I think to some degree the cultural norms are ridiculous.

 

[jasonstover9]

God has nothing to do with our development. I don't believe he exists at all, but that's beside the point in this discussion. The only thing that really makes sense to me is that nature takes its course and we end up with errors and those errors manifest in either physical defects or mental defects sometimes. Whether that means that a baby is born with a heart defect, without a brain, with a cleft lip, indeterminate external sex organs, both sex organs or a mismatched sex and gender, all are developed because nature isn't perfect and things end up screwed up

Wrong place to be if you dont beleive in God. Sorry but I cant accuse of lack of trying. Christians dont nessasarily like being challenged by someone who does not even believe in God.
The world is not accidents. I am not an accident. And to believe that people are born with mixed up minds about what gender they want is to believe that elephants could fly should they choose to do so.
I made all the wrong choices in life and frankly ended up better off when I accepted that God is real.
I can not understand why a man wants to be a woman or vice versa but I do feel that confusing what God gave you with what you want. Is Satans clever whispers in your ear.
Rejecting the confusion makes you feel better. Accepting what you have makes you happy. Suicide by any party, is a personal choice and a cowardly way out. Nothing is ever been that bad.
I was locked in a room. Tyed up beeten and raped, by other men. I was tortured and humiliated. It causes me so much pain daily!!!And it lasted for 9 years!!!!! But suicide would not have been the answer there. I felt better when I accepted that God could help me. And he did. I lived and I can use that as a way to help others. Fighting off the temtation to change sex is a key thing. You can then help others fight the same temptation.

 

[jennimatts]

So which one of these two is badly disguising their gender?

Ah, a trick question! Neither is disguising their gender.

 

[Cearbhall]

I can not understand why a man wants to be a woman or vice versa but I do feel that confusing what God gave you with what you want. Is Satans clever whispers in your ear.

No, it's about recognizing what you've actually been given rather than accepting the strange cultural garbage that says "Penis equals blue and vagina equals mascara!"

I was locked in a room. Tyed up beeten and raped, by other men. I was tortured and humiliated. It causes me so much pain daily!!!And it lasted for 9 years!!!!!

I'm very sorry.

 

[Cute Tink]

Wrong place to be if you dont beleive in God. Sorry but I cant accuse of lack of trying. Christians dont nessasarily like being challenged by someone who does not even believe in God.
The world is not accidents. I am not an accident. And to believe that people are born with mixed up minds about what gender they want is to believe that elephants could fly should they choose to do so.
I made all the wrong choices in life and frankly ended up better off when I accepted that God is real.
I can not understand why a man wants to be a woman or vice versa but I do feel that confusing what God gave you with what you want. Is Satans clever whispers in your ear.
Rejecting the confusion makes you feel better. Accepting what you have makes you happy. Suicide by any party, is a personal choice and a cowardly way out. Nothing is ever been that bad.

You missed the entire point of my post, regardless of my belief in God, there was a distinct point and you addressed it not at all.

If God micromanages our biological development to the point of deciding our sex, then how does that get screwed up with both intersex people and hermaphrodites? I really doubt, from what I get from the Bible, that God made mistakes with those people. Heart defects? Born without a brain? Either God is making mistakes, God is doing it deliberately or God has little/nothing to do with our biological development. Please address the point, rather than brushing me off.

Also, my position that people are born with a mismatched gender is backed by scientific studies showing that people can be born with the mind of one and the body of another (i.e. female brain, male body). If you want links, I can post them again (I have on other topics already). As far as elephants flying - Dumbo .

So while I am not a believer, I think that if you want to have a reasonable conversation, simply disregarding the entire point someone makes is nothing other than rude.

I was locked in a room. Tyed up beeten and raped, by other men. I was tortured and humiliated. It causes me so much pain daily!!!And it lasted for 9 years!!!!! But suicide would not have been the answer there. I felt better when I accepted that God could help me. And he did. I lived and I can use that as a way to help others. Fighting off the temtation to change sex is a key thing. You can then help others fight the same temptation.

I'm sorry to hear that this happened to you.

 

[Cearbhall]

Also, my position that people are born with a mismatched gender is backed by scientific studies showing that people can be born with the mind of one and the body of another (i.e. female brain, male body). If you want links, I can post them again (I have on other topics already).

Yeah, some people are just unaware that chromosomes and genitals are not the be-all and end-all of your gender. It's a lot more complicated than that, and I don't see why it's so taboo to think that God might have created someone a bit more complex.

 

[Skaloop]

Ah, a trick question! Neither is disguising their gender.

I agree, but was wondering what MandyAngel would have to say about it.

 

[jennimatts]

If you think God is so willing to micromanage your existence to the point that he's going to sit there and decide your sex (not gender, sex is physical, gender is mental), then why isn't he also fixing problems that develop, especially those which end up causing the death of the baby? That seems very, very strange to me. Why are there hermaphrodites? Intersex people? That does not make sense at all to me and I look forward to your explanation, because if God is micromanaging our development, then He seems very particular about deciding most people's sex (yet not all) and must have some random purpose for having all those other birth defects out there, even to the point where the baby cannot survive. I look forward to your explanation...

I also want to see the explanation. As a Christian, I believe God does intervene in some circumstances, but the issues you cite seem to strongly indicate that God does not micromanage our development.

...Cross dressing, even accounting for cultural standards, is rejecting your gender and trying to DESIGN another which God did not make you in and you were not born with so its actually rejecting God.

How does one integrate the belief that God only creates children male or female with the fact that some are born intersex or ambiguous? What about those who being born with such condition were redesigned surgically as infants to resemble one sex or the other. What if the doctor chose the wrong sex for the child? See this.

 

[Saleena]

On that off topic of Kim Petra. My trans friend (I hate using that descriptor, I think friend is just fine but in this context...), she is really really pretty, I wanted to ask her out a few times. *blush* :o