Cross-Dressing

Torah

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This is from this past weeks Torah club reading from FFOZ book #5. I believe this is very well put.

Cross-Dressing
Deuteronomy 22:5
A man is not to wear garments ordinarily worn by a woman, nor is a woman to wear garments ordinarily worn by a man. This is prohibition on cross-dressing, and it appears in the traditional enumeration of the 613 in a positive and negative form.

• It is forbidden for a woman to put on men's garments. (N39)

• It is forbidden for a man to put on women's garments. (N40)

The Torah says that cross-dressing is an 'abomination' to the LORD. For this reason, observant Torah communities tend to gravitate toward more traditional, modest dress, typically shunning the androgynous norms of today's society. It is for this reason also that most traditionalist communities discourage women from wearing the customary tallit (prayer shawl). For more than 2,000 years, the tallit has been regarded as a man's garment.
The prohibition on cross-dressing may shed light upon a difficult passage of Pauline material. In 1 Corinthians 11, Paul warns men not to wear head coverings6 in the manner of a woman's head covering. Though this has often been mistaken as a prohibition on a man wearing any head covering (e.g., the kippah), it is better understood as an admonishment against cross-dressers in the Corinthian congregation. Tebbitt points out that the Deuteronomy 22 passage has a direct bearing on the Corinthian passage, particularly 1 Corinthians 11:14-15.7
Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him, but if a woman has long hair it is a glory to her? For her long hair has been given to her for a covering. (1 Corinthians 11:14-15)
Tebbitt indicates that the word translated here as "nature," can have the sense of "culture" (i.e., the 'nature of things'). The culture that the Gentile disciples in Corinth had adopted was nothing other than the norms of the Torah itself, i.e., the Torah culture of Paul's day. In that culture, long hair, along with adorning, braiding and primping were typically feminine characteristics.8 Tebbitt's theory finds support in the Talmud, where we learn that the Sages of Paul's day
forbade men from primping their hair like women based on Deuteronomy 22:5.
The Sages agree with Rabbi Eliezer. A man who picks out white hairs from black ones is guilty.. .for it is said, "nor shall a man put on a woman's clothing." (b.Shabbat 94b quoting Deuteronomy 22:5)
In developing the Deuteronomy 22:5 reading of 1 Corinthians 11:14-15, Tebbitt goes on to speculate about the obscure statement that a woman's long hair is "a glory to her." In other words, a woman's hair, when it is worn long (i.e., in a feminine manner), is the appropriate expression of her femininity. At least long hair was the feminine cultural expression in Paul's day. He further suggests that the statement that a woman's hair "has been given to her for a covering" is probably meant to be understood in light of Deuteronomy 22:5. The word translated "covering" is the Greek word peribolaion, and it is used in the LXX to denote clothing or a garment in general. In fact, it is only used one other time in the whole of the Apostolic Scriptures, and it there it is translated as "garment."9 Thus, the statement may be read as "her long hair is given to her for a garment." Reading the apostle's admonition this way, we see that he is categorizing a woman's long hair as not only proper for her, but as a gender-specific garment. Regardless of the day or culture one lives in, this means that men should endeavor to look like men, and women should endeavor to look like women.
 

Heber

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It is for this reason also that most traditionalist communities discourage women from wearing the customary tallit (prayer shawl). For more than 2,000 years, the tallit has been regarded as a man's garment.

But a similar garment, though ostensibly made for a different purpose -a head scarf -is ok? Many women now wear a headscarf for the same purpose as men wear prayer shawls (or is it that men wear prayer shawls, copying women wearing head scarves???), but as it is not made as a prayer shawl it seems to be ok! It's all in the name, clearly, not just the intention.
 
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ContraMundum

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The fact of the matter is that the application of that verse is ultimately rather subjective. I know of Christian groups that interpret that text as meaning women cannot wear bifurcated garments (pants, slacks) because in the West that is (or rather was) a distinctively male garment.

It all gets rather messy in the end, as disagreements will inevitably arise as to what constitutes uniquely male and female dress in tthe modern world. The scriptural principle itself is clear- maintain the distinction of genders, even down to clothing. Transvestisism is an abomination to the Lord. However, the application, when done badly, can get very mixed up and even legalistic and cultic.

This is why Jews have halachic rulings from the Rabbinate and the Church has a magisterial role as well. It avoids confusion and allows guidance. Not to get into the success (or not) of those bodies, but such ruling bodies ultimately stem from Mosaic times.

Also, I think FFOZ have made an error in their interpretation of 1 Cor 11, failing to recognise that the distinctions in the Greek of that passage between various "coverings" that doesn't come out in the English Bible, and also in referring to Tebbit's stretched speculations about portions of the Talmud that would have been unfamiliar to the Corinthians and thus, although interesting in relation to Dt 22, have no direct bearing on the matter of the Corinthian congregation in 1 Cor 11. We had a thread on this earlier, but I don't know where it is.
 
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anisavta

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"Our Rabbis taught:
All must observe the laws of tzitzit, priests, Levitets and Israelites,proselytes, women and slaves."
Talmud - Mas. Menachoth 43a

Num 15:38 'Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them throughout their generations fringes in the corners of their garments, and that they put with the fringe of each corner a thread of blue.
Num 15:39 And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them; and that ye go not about after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go astray;
Num 15:40 that ye may remember and do all My commandments, and be holy unto your God.
Num 15:41 I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: I am the LORD your God.'

It does not say "men of Israel" it says "children of Israel" - so that would include women.
A tallit is a four cornered garment to attach tzitzit to. So if women as well as men are commanded to wear tzitzit then they should not be restricted from wearing a tallit or even tallit katan.
This is not cross-dressing. It is following mitzvot.
 
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Henaynei

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I chose to support, honor and encourage the community of men in the Messianic community by, among other things, declining some of that which certain teachings are my "right" - i.e. those things which have by time and tradition become associated with the men and their worship: tzitzit, talitot, aliyah to Torah, handling the Torah, and others - from these I chose to abstain in totality....
 
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The fact of the matter is that the application of that verse is ultimately rather subjective. I know of Christian groups that interpret that text as meaning women cannot wear bifurcated garments (pants, slacks) because in the West that is (or rather was) a distinctively male garment.

It all gets rather messy in the end, as disagreements will inevitably arise as to what constitutes uniquely male and female dress in tthe modern world. The scriptural principle itself is clear- maintain the distinction of genders, even down to clothing. Transvestisism is an abomination to the Lord. However, the application, when done badly, can get very mixed up and even legalistic and cultic.

This is why Jews have halachic rulings from the Rabbinate and the Church has a magisterial role as well. It avoids confusion and allows guidance. Not to get into the success (or not) of those bodies, but such ruling bodies ultimately stem from Mosaic times.

Also, I think FFOZ have made an error in their interpretation of 1 Cor 11, failing to recognise that the distinctions in the Greek of that passage between various "coverings" that doesn't come out in the English Bible, and also in referring to Tebbit's stretched speculations about portions of the Talmud that would have been unfamiliar to the Corinthians and thus, although interesting in relation to Dt 22, have no direct bearing on the matter of the Corinthian congregation in 1 Cor 11. We had a thread on this earlier, but I don't know where it is.

kivi says: Believe it or not, I am in agreement with CM's comments. One of the over-whelming difficulties, it seems to me, is that when you are trying to resurrect a manner of behavior that ended almost 1900 years ago [a still 'Torah Jewish' form of pre-Pauline Christianity] and you don't have a continous oral and/or written tradition that connects that period [0 CE to 100 CE] to the present, you are left with the Frankenstein's Monster problem. Just stitching various body parts [ritual forms of behavior] together from vastly different available graves [ancient but incomplete historical records] doesn't necessarily give a viable creation. And what you end up with is 'each man does what is right in his own eyes' as this short segment on 'cross-dressing' clearly indicates. That is the opposite of one of the prime intends of ritual, which is to form community by creating a group of people who are all doing the same thing.
 
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ContraMundum

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kivi says: Believe it or not, I am in agreement with CM's comments. One of the over-whelming difficulties, it seems to me, is that when you are trying to resurrect a manner of behavior that ended almost 1900 years ago [a still 'Torah Jewish' form of pre-Pauline Christianity] and you don't have a continous oral and/or written tradition that connects that period [0 CE to 100 CE] to the present, you are left with the Frankenstein's Monster problem. Just stitching various body parts [ritual forms of behavior] together from vastly different available graves [ancient but incomplete historical records] doesn't necessarily give a viable creation. And what you end up with is 'each man does what is right in his own eyes' as this short segment on 'cross-dressing' clearly indicates. That is the opposite of one of the prime intends of ritual, which is to form community by creating a group of people who are all doing the same thing.

CM says: Believe it or not, I am in agreement with kivi's comments. This is why I believe the Church has a certain magisterial role to fulfill. However, the current zeitgeist is very irreligious- it's a mish mash of the Bible and Americanised/Westernised individualism, and thus tends to reject any form of authority, ancient or modern. Thus, in many modern church circles, and even in elements within Judaism, it's Judges 21:25 all over again.
 
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Meshavrischika

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clearly though, what is cross dressing one place is not cross dressing in another... therefore even a governing body may not be an authority because what they deem as "correct" may still be viewed as "women's clothing" by their followers in other places (and thus while they may have "authority" to say so per their own decision to have authority - they will cause their followers to question their authority because it does not fit the social norms and societal ideas of the area)
 
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CM says: Believe it or not, I am in agreement with kivi's comments. This is why I believe the Church has a certain magisterial role to fulfill. However, the current zeitgeist is very irreligious- it's a mish mash of the Bible and Americanised/Westernised individualism, and thus tends to reject any form of authority, ancient or modern. Thus, in many modern church circles, and even in elements within Judaism, it's Judges 21:25 all over again.

kivi says: For all of our belly-bumping, we really do think [as a process] pretty much a like.
Luv yah, man.
 
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Bananna

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My take on it is a Tallit is a man's garment and a scarf is both for men and women, though the way one wears it differs IMO.I do have small tzit tzit on my scarves which in no way look like a Tallit.I doubt anyone even knows what is on my scarf who is not a messianic circle. I see it as a command, but I don't see that it has to be on a Tallit. Just any Garment with four corners worn on the outside.I don't care for the knit tallit version on men, nor the Regular Tallit on women. Thats just me.bananna
 
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Hadassah

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Without getting into further specifics than this...

Cross dressing is a man desiring to dress and act like a woman, or a woman wanting to dress and act like a man -- and presenting oneself as such.

There is a difference in hermaphraditism (sorry can't think of a better way to express it), and someone such as my brother who has chosen to become female or a woman choosing (as the ""Pregnant man"") to become male (at least partially).

Hormone therapy, sex-change or not..
 
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MuidSaoirse

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This is from this past weeks Torah club reading from FFOZ book #5. I believe this is very well put.

Cross-Dressing
Deuteronomy 22:5
A man is not to wear garments ordinarily worn by a woman, nor is a woman to wear garments ordinarily worn by a man. This is prohibition on cross-dressing, and it appears in the traditional enumeration of the 613 in a positive and negative form.

• It is forbidden for a woman to put on men's garments. (N39)

• It is forbidden for a man to put on women's garments. (N40)

The Torah says that cross-dressing is an 'abomination' to the LORD. For this reason, observant Torah communities tend to gravitate toward more traditional, modest dress, typically shunning the androgynous norms of today's society. It is for this reason also that most traditionalist communities discourage women from wearing the customary tallit (prayer shawl). For more than 2,000 years, the tallit has been regarded as a man's garment.
The prohibition on cross-dressing may shed light upon a difficult passage of Pauline material. In 1 Corinthians 11, Paul warns men not to wear head coverings6 in the manner of a woman's head covering. Though this has often been mistaken as a prohibition on a man wearing any head covering (e.g., the kippah), it is better understood as an admonishment against cross-dressers in the Corinthian congregation. Tebbitt points out that the Deuteronomy 22 passage has a direct bearing on the Corinthian passage, particularly 1 Corinthians 11:14-15.7
Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him, but if a woman has long hair it is a glory to her? For her long hair has been given to her for a covering. (1 Corinthians 11:14-15)
Tebbitt indicates that the word translated here as "nature," can have the sense of "culture" (i.e., the 'nature of things'). The culture that the Gentile disciples in Corinth had adopted was nothing other than the norms of the Torah itself, i.e., the Torah culture of Paul's day. In that culture, long hair, along with adorning, braiding and primping were typically feminine characteristics.8 Tebbitt's theory finds support in the Talmud, where we learn that the Sages of Paul's day
forbade men from primping their hair like women based on Deuteronomy 22:5.
The Sages agree with Rabbi Eliezer. A man who picks out white hairs from black ones is guilty.. .for it is said, "nor shall a man put on a woman's clothing." (b.Shabbat 94b quoting Deuteronomy 22:5)
In developing the Deuteronomy 22:5 reading of 1 Corinthians 11:14-15, Tebbitt goes on to speculate about the obscure statement that a woman's long hair is "a glory to her." In other words, a woman's hair, when it is worn long (i.e., in a feminine manner), is the appropriate expression of her femininity. At least long hair was the feminine cultural expression in Paul's day. He further suggests that the statement that a woman's hair "has been given to her for a covering" is probably meant to be understood in light of Deuteronomy 22:5. The word translated "covering" is the Greek word peribolaion, and it is used in the LXX to denote clothing or a garment in general. In fact, it is only used one other time in the whole of the Apostolic Scriptures, and it there it is translated as "garment."9 Thus, the statement may be read as "her long hair is given to her for a garment." Reading the apostle's admonition this way, we see that he is categorizing a woman's long hair as not only proper for her, but as a gender-specific garment. Regardless of the day or culture one lives in, this means that men should endeavor to look like men, and women should endeavor to look like women.
Yes but what about diverse cultures where a sarong or dress form robe is worn. What about cultures where men adorn themselves also and it is not a gender issue but simply cultural mores.
This article acknowledges to a degree subjective cultural mores but does not recognise other cultures outside of Judaism.
To take these Torah passages literally means a female wearing say jeans, jewellery and tattoos is instantly an abomination to God...
God created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve etc etc
However to present rigidity in external presentation as addressing cross-dressing or gender identity issues misses the intent of God's design for mankind genderwise bigtime.
I believe God is markedly interested in the state of our hearts/spirits... External manifestations are merely the dressing excuse the pun...
Would not the garments of righteousness be more the point than pedantic demands of codes of dressing...
 
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kivi says: The Torah is not talking about diverse cultures, it is only talking about Judaism, the 613 Mitzvahs of Torah, B'nai Israel and G-d's requirements for B'nai Israel. Within the framework of Torah and B'nai Israel, 'cross-dressing' is forbidden as well as self mutilation including cosmetic scaring and tattooing.



Yes but what about diverse cultures where a sarong or dress form robe is worn. What about cultures where men adorn themselves also and it is not a gender issue but simply cultural mores.
This article acknowledges to a degree subjective cultural mores but does not recognise other cultures outside of Judaism.
To take these Torah passages literally means a female wearing say jeans, jewellery and tattoos is instantly an abomination to God...
God created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve etc etc
However to present rigidity in external presentation as addressing cross-dressing or gender identity issues misses the intent of God's design for mankind genderwise bigtime.
I believe God is markedly interested in the state of our hearts/spirits... External manifestations are merely the dressing excuse the pun...
Would not the garments of righteousness be more the point than pedantic demands of codes of dressing...
 
Upvote 0
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