Criticizing Islam

[smaneck]

Looks like the Christian identity movement copied some stuff off Afrocentric history.

Nope, it is the other way around. Your Afrocentric website got a bunch of their stuff from white supremacists.

 

[dazed]

Do you accuse Abraham of committing adultery and having sex slaves as well? How about Jacob?

Accuse???

You must have the wrong Bible. In all the Bibles, the righteous Abraham banged his slave girl and sent the besterd child into the desert.

 

[Murrisch]

Nope, it is the other way around. Your Afrocentric website got a bunch of their stuff from white supremacists.

Are you referring to the KKK?

 

[Murrisch]

Perhaps, but the NSA only monitors, they don't persecute or prosecute.

Agreed.

Uh, no. You're confusing the NSA with the FBI or the CIA. The NSA is made up of geeks who simply monitor communications. It doesn't have spies or undercover agents. They recruit on the campus where I did my graduate work, but they are mostly looking for people with language and math skills.

Yes again. My excuse is late night brain fog.

They may well monitor such forums, but they wouldn't actively participate.

Ah . . . and you know this how? They follow the rules? Over zealous NSA operative?

Or are you an NSA operative and know this through personal experience, lol

 

[Murrisch]

This may come as a shock to you, but sometimes people act in ways contrary to their religion. States especially tend to do this kind of thing.

In fact, I've yet to hear of a Christian nation that 'turned the other cheek.'

Really? What do you define as turning the other cheek?

That's a pretty ill formed accusation. Are you hostile to Christians for a reason? Or is it not just hostility toward Christians but a general hypocrisy of Christians that puts you off so much.

"Cause I sense a hostility toward something . . . not sure what? Seriously, I'm just interested

 

[simplegifts]

Do you accuse Abraham of committing adultery and having sex slaves as well? How about Jacob?

Of course, all of mankind commit sins of one kind or another. Look at the consequences/grief caused by Abraham having a child with Hagar and not trusting in GOD's promise of a son with Sarah.

12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

 

[simplegifts]

The Egyptian-born political scientist Hamed Abdel-Samad (who was a member of the Muslim brotherhood at one point of his life, and is the son of a village imam) has released several books that criticize Islam. His most recent publication argues that the totalitarian - or "fascist", as he calls it - elements we detect in contemporary Islamism are not recent distortions of Muhammad's religion, but have been part of the parcel since the very beginning.

The purpose of this thread, however, is NOT to defend or attack his arguments. I suspect that most points he brings up have been talked to death on these very forums several times over, and all I have to say on the matter is that I find his argumentation to be a little too one-sided, and that the same criticisms could easily be applied to the other Abrahamic religions.

HOWEVER, what *really* interests me here is the way the Islamic world reacted to him - and it's that reaction that I cannot accept.
Protesters from Cairo drove to the village where his family lives, forming a mob around their house and chanting "with your blood, we will avenge the prophet". The religious police declared a fatwa, his photo was circulated via the internet with the inscription "wanted dead", and his father the imam was urged to disown his son on public television.

It's that kind of behaviour that lends credence to his arguments. This utter inability to deal with criticism, this eagerness to requite skepticism with violence.

I am bored with the Muslim threats.
Ban on Muslim Brotherhood ‘will increase terrorism risk’ | The Times
Banning the Muslim Brotherhood will leave Britain at greater risk of terrorist attacks, the group’s most senior leader in the UK said yesterday.
Speaking for the first time since David Cameron announced an investigation into the organisation’s alleged links to violent extremism, Ibrahim Mounir said that it risked alienating moderate Muslims.

 

[WoodrowX2]

I am bored with the Muslim threats.
Ban on Muslim Brotherhood ‘will increase terrorism risk’ | The Times
Banning the Muslim Brotherhood will leave Britain at greater risk of terrorist attacks, the group’s most senior leader in the UK said yesterday.
Speaking for the first time since David Cameron announced an investigation into the organisation’s alleged links to violent extremism, Ibrahim Mounir said that it risked alienating moderate Muslims.

I think you will find that the Majority of Muslims oppose what the Muslim Brotherhood has become. It is pretty much floundering and seems to be in it's death spasms. It gets little support except maybe some from the al-Saud family.

I think what some Muslims (Possibly including Ibrahim Mounir) fear is the banning would be the first step in banning Islam.

Similar to how some people feel that the use of Halal labels on food is forcing people be Muslims.

 

[andy b]

While there may be some Muslims that are followers because they are scared to leave, I doubt if that is most.

I believe most of us stay Muslim for the simple reason we believe it is the revealed way to worship.

It is almost ridiculous to force a person to remain Muslim against their will. that is an oxymoron as to be Muslim one must firmly believe Islam is the Truth. Without that belief you can not be Muslim

Now the next problem is you can not tell from physical signs who is or is not a Muslim. there is nothing one most do publicly to show they are Muslim. Being Muslim is quite personal and is an individual commitment to Allaah(swt)

As for mob rule, I have seen that in every Nation I have ever lived in or stayed for any extended time.

I'm old enough to still remember the KKK lynch mobs here in the USA. I also remember the Watts Riots and the "Race Riot" in Shreveport La. Many people took part in them for the same reason you mention "better join in or they may turn on me" which is normal in any group and not reflective of any religion.

To expand on mob rule it could have been a Christian mob or Jewish mob or black or white....human history is filled with barbaric acts committed by good people who when joined a mob turned bad.

 

[simplegifts]

I think you will find that the Majority of Muslims oppose what the Muslim Brotherhood has become. It is pretty much floundering and seems to be in it's death spasms. It gets little support except maybe some from the al-Saud family.

I think what some Muslims (Possibly including Ibrahim Mounir) fear is the banning would be the first step in banning Islam.

Similar to how some people feel that the use of Halal labels on food is forcing people be Muslims.

floundering and seems to be in it's death spasms- That is what my friend, an ex-Muslim says.

No one can force what is in your heart. I know of Muslims who are secretly Christian!! They go to Mosque and perform all the motions of following the prayers and being Muslim. All the while saying the Our Father and praying to Jesus.

There are also many, many secret Church homes all through the Middles East, so many brave people. This makes me think of the people in Communist countries who kept Christianity alive during their repression.

 

[WoodrowX2]

floundering and seems to be in it's death spasms- That is what my friend, an ex-Muslim says.

No one can force what is in your heart. I know of Muslims who are secretly Christian!! They go to Mosque and perform all the motions of following the prayers and being Muslim. All the while saying the Our Father and praying to Jesus.

There are also many, many secret Church homes all through the Middles East, so many brave people. This makes me think of the people in Communist countries who kept Christianity alive during their repression.

That is true. I also know of ex-Christians (now Muslim, or Atheist) that still go to Church out of fear of condemnation by family and friends.

Family and peer pressure is a very powerful force no matter what religion one is.

For myself I kept it hidden,for nearly 3 years, that I stopped believing in Christianity and during that time still remained the Pastor of a church (Assembly of God) and did periodic missionary work. all the time living in the middle of the bible Belt and putting on the front of being a devoted Christian.

I finaly could no longer live the hypocrisy and quit. For the next 20 years I acknowledged I was was an Atheist. I did not return to God until the minute I discovered I was a Muslim at the age of 65

In 2004 We were living in a very Red Neck town smack in the Center of the Bible Belt. I was diagnosed with lung cancer and began preparing for my final days. But my wife passed away suddenly just a few weeks after my diagnosis. I went into a very deep depression and began drinking quite heavily. In May of 2005 I realized the stupidity of my drunken binge sobered up and set forth to regain control of my life. I began with a general clean up of the house. During my clean up I found my old Qur'an in Arabic that I had bought while I was a student at Rabat. I had bought it as a study guide to help me learn to read Arabic.


It had been many years since I had last read anything in Arabic. I was curious as to if I could still read it. I opened it to Surah Fatiha and the first line literally jumped out at me.

Bismillah ir Rahman ir Raheem. "In the name of Allaah, the provider, the Most merciful"



It was like the words glowed and completely filled me with an inner peace I never felt before.



I turned back to the preface and saw it was the supplication:


“Auzu Billahi Mina Al Shaytan Al Rajeem”.
(In Allaah(swt) I seek refuge from the evils of Satan)


After over 20 years of not speaking Arabic it all flowed back to me. I could not stop reading and I was not simply reading words, the feeling of each ayyat came upon me with an indescribable warmth and sense of understanding. I could not stop. I do not know how long I read I know it was for at least 48 hours and I still could not stop the feeling was so powerful and filling me with a strong sense of love and joy on the morning of what I believe was the 3rd day I finally set the Qur'an down and knew I was Muslim. I instantly said the Shahadah and knew I was now part of the Ummah. Idid not even know if there were any Muslims in Texas much less if there were any Mosques.




I realized I was hungry and there was no food in the house. The nearest store was only a mile from me so I decided to walk down to it. When I entered the store there was a stranger from out of town. He was dark skinned. Our eyes met and he smiled and said "As salaamu Alaikum Akhi" without hesitation I answered back "Wa alaikum wa reamatullahi wa baraktuhu" He then asked"How long have you been Muslim, I answered about 15 minutes.


He then asked me if I had ever been in a Mosque, I said no. He then invited me to go to the Mosque in Tyler on Friday. I accepted. I later learned his name was Aadil and he had just moved to Texas from Pakistan. He had gotten lost and accidentally drove into Tennessee Colony, He had stopped at the store to get directions. Aadil and I became very close friends and still are although he has since moved back to Pakistan.

 

[Dialogues]

... During my clean up I found my old Qur'an in Arabic that I had bought while I was a student at Rabat. I had bought it as a study guide to help me learn to read Arabic.

It had been many years since I had last read anything in Arabic. I was curious as to if I could still read it. I opened it to Surah Fatiha and the first line literally jumped out at me.

Bismillah ir Rahman ir Raheem. "In the name of Allaah, the provider, the Most merciful"

It was like the words glowed and completely filled me with an inner peace I never felt before.

I turned back to the preface and saw it was the supplication:

“Auzu Billahi Mina Al Shaytan Al Rajeem”.
(In Allaah(swt) I seek refuge from the evils of Satan)

After over 20 years of not speaking Arabic it all flowed back to me. I could not stop reading and I was not simply reading words, the feeling of each ayyat came upon me with an indescribable warmth and sense of understanding. I could not stop. I do not know how long I read I know it was for at least 48 hours and I still could not stop the feeling was so powerful and filling me with a strong sense of love and joy on the morning of what I believe was the 3rd day I finally set the Qur'an down and knew I was Muslim. I instantly said the Shahadah and knew I was now part of the Ummah.

Subhaanallaah. Allah guides whom He wills however He wills. But it is clear to see you were making steps to reform yourself already when you found right guidance. And "Allah increases in guidance those who follow the guidance."

How is your health now, given your injuries?

Peace.

 

[smaneck]

Really? What do you define as turning the other cheek?

I think the Gospel of Matthew is pretty clear on that issue. It means you can't retaliate.

That's a pretty ill formed accusation.

Not at all. It is simply an acknowledgement that you can't run a state on the basis of that principle.

Are you hostile to Christians for a reason? Or is it not just hostility toward Christians but a general hypocrisy of Christians that puts you off so much.

Actually I'm not hostile against Christianity at all.

"Cause I sense a hostility toward something . . . not sure what? Seriously, I'm just interested

The only time I feel hostile towards Christians is when I see them attacking other religions or judging them by different standards than they judge themselves.

 

[smaneck]

Of course, all of mankind commit sins of one kind or another. Look at the consequences/grief caused by Abraham having a child with Hagar and not trusting in GOD's promise of a son with Sarah.

Accept the Bible never even suggests that Abraham committed a sin by having a son through Hagar. Nor does it suggest that Jacob did anything wrong by having children through the handmaidens of Leah and Rachel. Indeed, those children are treated in the Bible as the legitimate children of Leah and Rachel respectively.

12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

That wasn't a curse, it was part of the blessing which God promised to Abraham's son. It was a way of saying, "don't worry, your son will be able to take care of himself."

 

[WoodrowX2]

Subhaanallaah. Allah guides whom He wills however He wills. But it is clear to see you were making steps to reform yourself already when you found right guidance. And "Allah increases in guidance those who follow the guidance."

How is your health now, given your injuries?

Peace.

Alhamdulillah

I have pretty much given up any concerns about my health. I do have difficulty walking and am very limited bending, kneeling and in picking things up, I also still have very chronic shortness of breath and my blood pressure is so high it is scary. Most of my life is now limited to what I can do on the computer. I have been blessed with the ability to ignore pain and what aches and pains I may have no longer affect me. I have not taken any pain medications for over 20 years.

But, the other side of the coin. I will in a very short time reach my 74th birthday. I am the first male in my family to live past the age of 65. I have done more in my life than I ever desired as a child. I am at the point in my life my only remining desire is to be on the path to Jannah. Masha Allah

 

[smaneck]

I think what some Muslims (Possibly including Ibrahim Mounir) fear is the banning would be the first step in banning Islam.

There is a difference between outlawing actions and banning organizations. Every time we have tried to ban an organization in this country it has created more problems than it resolves. That's why we couldn't just ban the KKK. However, the Southern Poverty Law Center essentially put them out of business by suing them for violence they incited.

 

[WoodrowX2]

There is a difference between outlawing actions and banning organizations. Every time we have tried to ban an organization in this country it has created more problems than it resolves. That's why we couldn't just ban the KKK. However, the Southern Poverty Law Center essentially put them out of business by suing them for violence they incited.

True

From what I have seen (I used to live in Louisiana) Banning the KKK only resulted in better ways for them to hide their activities. In some ways they simply became more covert and devious "DaveDuke et al"

 

[Mediate]

The Egyptian-born political scientist Hamed Abdel-Samad (who was a member of the Muslim brotherhood at one point of his life, and is the son of a village imam) has released several books that criticize Islam. His most recent publication argues that the totalitarian - or "fascist", as he calls it - elements we detect in contemporary Islamism are not recent distortions of Muhammad's religion, but have been part of the parcel since the very beginning.

The purpose of this thread, however, is NOT to defend or attack his arguments. I suspect that most points he brings up have been talked to death on these very forums several times over, and all I have to say on the matter is that I find his argumentation to be a little too one-sided, and that the same criticisms could easily be applied to the other Abrahamic religions.

HOWEVER, what *really* interests me here is the way the Islamic world reacted to him - and it's that reaction that I cannot accept.
Protesters from Cairo drove to the village where his family lives, forming a mob around their house and chanting "with your blood, we will avenge the prophet". The religious police declared a fatwa, his photo was circulated via the internet with the inscription "wanted dead", and his father the imam was urged to disown his son on public television.

It's that kind of behaviour that lends credence to his arguments. This utter inability to deal with criticism, this eagerness to requite skepticism with violence.

'Some muslims' do not equate to 'the Islamic world'.

Do you think the reactions of a few should lend credence to the idea that the ideology of billions is warped?

This is why I have such an issue with religious titles and headings, particularly when people lend arguments against a certain religion or its practices. The author of the book seems to have done it in his writing and you seem to be doing it here. Saying 'Muslims did this' rather than 'a few people did this'. To use the phrase 'Islamic world' automatically creates an association with other muslims who may have absolutely nothing to do with this crime.

Islam is not unanimous, and in fact, nor is any religion or belief system. A person should be merited or discredited on their individual values alone, not that of their fellowship, their brother, sister, mother, father, son, daughter, cousin, aunt, uncle, friend, partner, lover, church, mosque, temple, town, city or country.

Similarly, the actions of some individuals should not be used to lend either merit or discredit to others under that 'heading'. Nor can a few under that heading who behaved negatively be used to say that the heading itself is morally inept.

Each person has an individual mind.

A few peoples' reactions are a few people's reactions. They bear nothing against the many muslims who do not act as they act. I firmly believe that the idea of tarring people with the same brush because of their heading is a highly naive way to paint pictures or view people.

It's sort of like saying, 'a few hundred 'women' in Southern California stripped naked and beat a dozen men in a feminist rally after a man opposed their ideology', and it somehow equates to 'the 'female world' reacts badly to opposition'.

There are 7 billion people in the world and every one of them is completely unique.

 

[Dialogues]

Alhamdulillah

I have pretty much given up any concerns about my health. I do have difficulty walking and am very limited bending, kneeling and in picking things up, I also still have very chronic shortness of breath and my blood pressure is so high it is scary. Most of my life is now limited to what I can do on the computer. I have been blessed with the ability to ignore pain and what aches and pains I may have no longer affect me. I have not taken any pain medications for over 20 years.

But, the other side of the coin. I will in a very short time reach my 74th birthday. I am the first male in my family to live past the age of 65. I have done more in my life than I ever desired as a child. I am at the point in my life my only remining desire is to be on the path to Jannah. Masha Allah

May Allah improve your health for you, and grant you the best of what is left of your time in this world, more than you expect, and the best in the hereafter, Ameen.

Wassalaam.

 

[Supreme]

It's not surprising. He sure is a brave man. Egypt is one of the most religious countries in the world. Publishing blasphemous content there is more or less a death wish. That said, I have heard that Christianity is also covered under the blasphemy laws there, so as far as Medieval and backwards laws go, it's pretty liberal.