Critical question: Disagreement

CelticRebel · Jul 19, 2015

What do you do when you have an affinity for a belief system, a strong agreement in key areas, and yet you also have strong disagreement in other areas, some of them also key areas? If the areas of disagreement did not consist of required teachings, there most likely would not be a problem, but that's not the case with me, I'm afraid.

I ask myself, if not Orthodoxy, then what? I've considered Anglicanism, and some form of Anabaptist/Baptist, but I have the same issues -- it seems there are one, two, or a few key required teachings that I just can't agree with and accept. I don't believe God wants me to be without a church home, but I don't know what to do anymore.

ArmyMatt · Jul 20, 2015

keep seeking. it might take a lifetime, but if you keep seeking after truth, God will let you know. at the Antiochian parish that I go to when I visit my parents, one guy was a catechumen for 15 years because there were some things that he could not wrap his head around. now, he and his wife are active members of the parish. don't try to rush Orthodoxy, and remember that it is okay for you not to get something right off the bat.

CelticRebel · Jul 20, 2015

ArmyMatt said:
keep seeking. it might take a lifetime, but if you keep seeking after truth, God will let you know. at the Antiochian parish that I go to when I visit my parents, one guy was a catechumen for 15 years because there were some things that he could not wrap his head around. now, he and his wife are active members of the parish. don't try to rush Orthodoxy, and remember that it is okay for you not to get something right off the bat.

I appreciate that.

It seems it already has taken a lifetime -- 40 years actually. I'm 60 now, and if it takes another 40 years, I'll probably be dead.

ArmyMatt · Jul 20, 2015

CelticRebel said:
I appreciate that.

It seems it already has taken a lifetime -- 40 years actually. I'm 60 now, and if it takes another 40 years, I'll probably be dead.

haha, I know more than a few folk who converted to Orthodoxy later in life. tis never too late with a timeless God, ya know?

truefiction1 · Jul 20, 2015

CelticRebel said:
I appreciate that.

It seems it already has taken a lifetime -- 40 years actually. I'm 60 now, and if it takes another 40 years, I'll probably be dead.

God is not to be found in the vociferousness of rational thinking and philosophizing, but in the "still small voice" (1 Kings 19:12) of metaphorical transfiguration within Orthodox Christian liturgical, sacramental Life. Receive the Kingdom of Heaven as a child. Very young children cannot speak and don't understand words, nor do they think about and represent things with words. They simply experience everything and everyone as they actually are.

Dialogist · Jul 23, 2015

CelticRebel said:
What do you do when you have an affinity for a belief system

My opinion:

What we believe or don't believe has no bearing on what is actually true. We must push all our beliefs aside and seek what is true, asking for God's help.

When you say that you have an affinity for a belief system, what does that mean? For example, what dogma held by the Eastern Orthodox Church do you think are false and why?

I would really recommend you listen to this podcast by Fr. Thomas Hopko of blessed memory: Teaching Doctrine in the World We Live in Today. Unfortunately, no transcript is available, but I think you will find his talk very enlightening. Even though he is Dean Emeritus of Theology at St. Vladimir's Orthodox Seminary, he pushes everything aside in this talk and gives his listeners some simple ways to "test" whether what they believe is "the Truth".

CelticRebel · Jul 23, 2015

Dialogist said:
My opinion:

What we believe or don't believe has no bearing on what is actually true. We must push all our beliefs aside and seek what is true, asking for God's help.

When you say that you have an affinity for a belief system, what does that mean? For example, what dogma held by the Eastern Orthodox Church do you think are false and why?

I would really recommend you listen to this podcast by Fr. Thomas Hopko of blessed memory: Teaching Doctrine in the World We Live in Today. Unfortunately, no transcript is available, but I think you will find his talk very enlightening. Even though he is Dean Emeritus of Theology at St. Vladimir's Orthodox Seminary, he pushes everything aside in this talk and gives his listeners some simple ways to "test" whether what they believe is "the Truth".

Believe me, I did push all my beliefs aside, many years ago. I have talked about that in places on this forum. I briefly became an agnostic, deciding I would start from scratch, as it were, and search for the truth. When I came back to Christianity, I continued that objective search, for the Body that was closest to the NT church.

I have already listed some things that I have trouble with in Orthodoxy, and a couple of those would apply to other Churches, too. I'd rather not list them again.

I will definitely listen to that podcast. Thank you for referring me to it, and thank you for your post.

CelticRebel · Jul 23, 2015

Dialogist said:
My opinion:

What we believe or don't believe has no bearing on what is actually true. We must push all our beliefs aside and seek what is true, asking for God's help.

When you say that you have an affinity for a belief system, what does that mean? For example, what dogma held by the Eastern Orthodox Church do you think are false and why?

I would really recommend you listen to this podcast by Fr. Thomas Hopko of blessed memory: Teaching Doctrine in the World We Live in Today. Unfortunately, no transcript is available, but I think you will find his talk very enlightening. Even though he is Dean Emeritus of Theology at St. Vladimir's Orthodox Seminary, he pushes everything aside in this talk and gives his listeners some simple ways to "test" whether what they believe is "the Truth".

Okay, I just listened to the podcast, and I've done everything he said, and for a very long time.

Dialogist · Jul 23, 2015

CelticRebel said:
Okay, I just listened to the podcast, and I've done everything he said, and for a very long time.

I'm sorry - I think I was remiss in pointing out that this was a 3-part podcast. Fr. Tom's suggestions span the first two episodes, the second of which is here: http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/teaching_doctrine_in_the_world_we_live_in_today_part_two.

Part One covered his first 4 suggestions. To summarize all 10 of his suggestions:

Have a true desire and hunger for the truth (or better, the Truth).
Reach out to God in prayer with a sincere desire to know Him as He really is and not as we imagine.
Be constantly reading the New Testament, especially the Gospels, putting into practice what we understand.
Participate each week in the Orthodox Divine Liturgy. (Although Fr. Tom puts this as "Go to church", his description of how to participate clearly indicates that he is referring only to the Orthodox service).
Carry out works of mercy (i.e. almsgiving), in the form of being kind to other people without exception (especially those around us), not lying, not harming anyone, doing 1-2 hours of good works for other people each week without letting anyone know what you are doing, giving away any extra money you may have.
Abstain from sexual immorality.
Fast (in the Orthodox sense) at least a couple of times a week.
Sit in complete silence at least 15 minutes per day and give up any thoughts that may occur to God.
Speak as little as possible and concentrate on listening to other people.
Seek out another individual with whom you can share everything about yourself (for most Orthodox, this is their priest).

CelticRebel · Jul 23, 2015

Dialogist said:
I'm sorry - I think I was remiss in pointing out that this was a 3-part podcast. Fr. Tom's suggestions span the first two episodes, the second of which is here: http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/teaching_doctrine_in_the_world_we_live_in_today_part_two.

Part One covered his first 4 suggestions. To summarize all 10 of his suggestions:

Have a true desire and hunger for the truth (or better, the Truth).

Reach out to God in prayer with a sincere desire to know Him as He really is and not as we imagine.

Be constantly reading the New Testament, especially the Gospels, putting into practice what we understand.

Participate each week in the Orthodox Divine Liturgy. (Although Fr. Tom puts this as "Go to church", his description of how to participate clearly indicates that he is referring only to the Orthodox service).

Carry out works of mercy (i.e. almsgiving), in the form of being kind to other people without exception (especially those around us), not lying, not harming anyone, doing 1-2 hours of good works for other people each week without letting anyone know what you are doing, giving away any extra money you may have.

Abstain from sexual immorality.

Fast (in the Orthodox sense) at least a couple of times a week.

Sit in complete silence at least 15 minutes per day and give up any thoughts that may occur to God.

Speak as little as possible and concentrate on listening to other people.

Seek out another individual with whom you can share everything about yourself (for most Orthodox, this is their priest).

Thanks! I'll listen to Part 2 soon.

~Anastasia~ · Jul 25, 2015

CR, forgive me that I haven't been around the forums as much and I may have forgotten, but ... did you ever get to attend a Divine Liturgy?

Don't feel badly. If you are at the point of asking questions and looking at theology, but you have not attended Liturgy, or only attended once or twice - you're not in that unusual a place. Forgive me but - Orthodoxy is not something you can embrace through the intellect alone.

I was there at one point. Agreeing with many things. Key difference as well though. I thought I couldn't actually get past certain things and become Orthodox. I actually figured I'd just keep getting communion from a parish that offered it openly, and just learn about Orthodoxy and use the parts that were useful to me. I honestly had a very self-centered approach, but it seemed to make the only logical sense.

However - once I began attending the Liturgy on a regular basis - well that made a huge difference. Entering into the prayers of the Church, and the worship of the Church, is to breathe the life of the Church (especially if coupled with parish life).

Anyway - don't feel like you have to work out everything before you even go. You do need to work things through before you convert - at least to a certain extent. You can't have deep disagreements with dogma. But when I was baptized, I still had things I was not comfortable with, but they were not essential things I had to practice. I only had to agree to defer that the Church had the right to practice them, if that makes sense. And my understanding grew after that time. The sacramental life of the Church is another dimension.

But if it's all intellectual to you at this point, don't be hard on yourself. Make every effort to give yourself a chance to participate in the Liturgy, and not just once. If you're comfortable with it, start praying the prayers of the Church - ask the priest for guidance. Give the Holy Spirit a chance to work.

CelticRebel · Jul 25, 2015

Kylissa said:
CR, forgive me that I haven't been around the forums as much and I may have forgotten, but ... did you ever get to attend a Divine Liturgy?

Don't feel badly. If you are at the point of asking questions and looking at theology, but you have not attended Liturgy, or only attended once or twice - you're not in that unusual a place. Forgive me but - Orthodoxy is not something you can embrace through the intellect alone.

I was there at one point. Agreeing with many things. Key difference as well though. I thought I couldn't actually get past certain things and become Orthodox. I actually figured I'd just keep getting communion from a parish that offered it openly, and just learn about Orthodoxy and use the parts that were useful to me. I honestly had a very self-centered approach, but it seemed to make the only logical sense.

However - once I began attending the Liturgy on a regular basis - well that made a huge difference. Entering into the prayers of the Church, and the worship of the Church, is to breathe the life of the Church (especially if coupled with parish life).

Anyway - don't feel like you have to work out everything before you even go. You do need to work things through before you convert - at least to a certain extent. You can't have deep disagreements with dogma. But when I was baptized, I still had things I was not comfortable with, but they were not essential things I had to practice. I only had to agree to defer that the Church had the right to practice them, if that makes sense. And my understanding grew after that time. The sacramental life of the Church is another dimension.

But if it's all intellectual to you at this point, don't be hard on yourself. Make every effort to give yourself a chance to participate in the Liturgy, and not just once. If you're comfortable with it, start praying the prayers of the Church - ask the priest for guidance. Give the Holy Spirit a chance to work.

Kylissa, I appreciate that very much. What you wrote is kind, helpful, and makes sense -- as usual.

~Anastasia~ · Jul 25, 2015

CelticRebel said:
Kylissa, I appreciate that very much. What you wrote is kind, helpful, and makes sense -- as usual.

You're welcome. I just don't want you to be hard on yourself if you can't work it all out in your mind beforehand. I don't know personally of anyone who has - at least not anyone who has said so.

CelticRebel · Jul 25, 2015

Kylissa said:
You're welcome. I just don't want you to be hard on yourself if you can't work it all out in your mind beforehand. I don't know personally of anyone who has - at least not anyone who has said so.

Thanks. I understand. I must say I do have a bad tendency to want to decide everything first. But some part of that is also because of actual experiences in churches that I've attended.

Critical question: Disagreement

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