Criteria for determining design

[crjmurray]

Every argument against evolution has been conveniently explained away (in language that few understand).

I addressed your probability argument and am still waiting on a design criteria.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Wrong, that was not Tyre. Tyre always was the island city that is now a peninsula. The prophesy clearly refers to the island as Tyre and the little towns as "daughter cities" or other such terms.

ETA: Yes, we have been through this before and the prophesy defenders lost. To defend the prophesy Bible prophesy had to become so trivial that "You will see a red car" by me would have qualified as a prophesy of biblical proportion.

Even secular historians agree that the mainland garrison was part of Tyre. Alexander used the rubble of it's destruction by Nebuchadnezzer to build the causeway that allowed him to destroy the island part. The city and it's inhabitants that God prophecied against were destroyed. God did not issue such prophecies against later builders and occupants, although a rebuilt 'Tyre' was besieged for centuries by many other nations.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Even secular historians agree that the mainland garrison was part of Tyre. Alexander used the rubble of it's destruction by Nebuchadnezzer to build the causeway that allowed him to destroy the island part. The city and it's inhabitants that God prophecied against were destroyed. God did not issue such prophecies against later builders and occupants, although a rebuilt 'Tyre' was besieged for centuries by many other nations.

Wrong. I have never seen that. Those were outposts of Tyre, they were not Tyre itself. In fact the very name "Tyre" tells you that it is an island when you check out its etymology.

Not only that the Bible verse clearly refers to Tyre the island and treats the "settlements" differently.

ETA: And you got your facts terribly wrong. Nebuchadnezzar was not the one the built the causeway. That was Alexander the Great. Nebby did not defeat Tyre. He did not set one foot on it. The prophesy failed terribly.

ETA number 2. Also Tyre was attacked quite often. Both before and after Nebby's attack. The fact that other nations attacked Tyre had nothing to do with the prophecy. The "many nations" in the prophecy referred to the "many nations" that Nebby led.

 

[AV1611VET]

Nope, since he has not so far why would anyone think that he would in the future.

He saved me.

He saved my wife.

He saved the Samaritan woman, the Philippian jailer, the Ethiopian eunuch, et al.

Think of all of the failed prophesies in the Bible.

Not hardly.

Here is one of the more unique ones.

1 Kings 13:2 And he cried against the altar in the word of the LORD, and said, O altar, altar, thus saith the LORD; Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name; and upon thee shall he offer the priests of the high places that burn incense upon thee, and men's bones shall be burnt upon thee.

I love what Adam Clarke says about it:

This is one of the most remarkable and most singular prophecies in the Old Testament. It here most circumstantially foretells a fact which took place three hundred and forty years after the prediction; a fact which was attested by the two nations. The Jews, in whose behalf this prophecy was delivered, would guard it most sacredly; and it was the interest of the Israelites, against whom it was levelled, to impugn its authenticity and expose its falsehood, had this been possible. This prediction not only showed the knowledge of God, but his power. He gave, as it were, this warning to idolatry, that it might be on its guard, and defend itself against this Josiah whenever a person of that name should be found sitting on the throne of David; and no doubt it was on the alert, and took all prudent measures for its own defence; but all in vain, for Josiah, in the eighteenth year of his reign, literally accomplished this prophecy, as we may read, 2Ki 23:15-20.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I addressed your probability argument and am still waiting on a design criteria.

I gave it earlier. If it looks and functions as if it were designed, it was probably designed. Regarding probability, you can't calculate probability after the fact. That's like fortuitously drawing the card you 'chose' from the deck on the first draw, then declaring that the probability of doing so was 100 per cent.

 

[AV1611VET]

I see no point in teaching some vague creation unless the creator is taught too.

I can't fault your point there, bro!

 

[crjmurray]

I gave it earlier. If it looks and functions as if it were designed, it was probably designed.

You'll understand if I file that under unsatisfactory.

 

[Subduction Zone]

He saved me.

He saved my wife.

He saved the Samaritan woman, the Philippian jailer, the Ethiopian eunuch, et al.

I doubt these claims very strongly. Without actual evidence they are simply the sort of story that you will hear supporting any religion. You need to do better than this.

Not hardly.

Here is one of the more unique ones.

1 Kings 13:2 And he cried against the altar in the word of the LORD, and said, O altar, altar, thus saith the LORD; Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name; and upon thee shall he offer the priests of the high places that burn incense upon thee, and men's bones shall be burnt upon thee.

I love what Adam Clarke says about it:

Sorry, but prophecies interpreted after the fact are never too impressive. And you are still ignoring the obviously failed prophesies.

 

[AV1611VET]

Sometimes it is very clear. Trying to use the false condition that if a prophesy looks failed it has not happened yet makes all prophesies worthless.

Um ... of the 333 prophecies concerning Jesus Christ, He fulfilled 109 of them at His first advent.

He will fulfill the other 224 at His second advent, the Millennial Reign.

This is why, when He quoted Isaiah 61 ...

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, [← note the comma] and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

... quoted here ...

Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
Luke 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luke 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. [← note the period]
Luke 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Luke 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

... notice He stopped at the comma?

It's because He was to be crucified before He fulfilled the rest of the prophecy; but He will be back to finish it.

 

[AV1611VET]

I doubt these claims very strongly.

You have to, if you want to keep your point intact.

Are you the one that said you have never been given a definition of "kind;" then, when I gave one, said it was wrong, just to keep your record intact?

(Or was that someone else?)

 

[Subduction Zone]

Um ... of the 333 prophecies concerning Jesus Christ, He fulfilled 109 of them at His first advent.

Sorry, I think you have made a huge error. I have seen many of these "hundreds of prophesies" and most are simply quote mines of the Bible. If you use verses that are not prophecies then you dilute and damage the supposed real prophecies.

He will fulfill the other 224 at His second advent, the Millennial Reign.

This is why, when He quoted Isaiah 61 ...

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, [← note the comma] and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Why ""note comma"? Surely there was no comma in the original. It is a translation at best. Besides that you are reinterpreting that verse to satisfy your interpretation. There are many Christians alone that would disagree with you.

... quoted here ...

Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
Luke 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luke 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. [← note the period]
Luke 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Luke 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

... notice He stopped at the comma?

It's because He was to be crucified before He fulfilled the rest of the prophecy; but He will be back to finish it.

Sorry, I am laughing too much at your emphasis on punctuation. Try again without being so silly. Jesus did not speak in English.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You have to, if you want to keep your point intact.

Are you the one that said you have never been given a definition of "kind;" then, when I gave one, said it was wrong, just to keep your record intact?

(Or was that someone else?)

No, they are once again simply tall stories that you can hear from any follower from any religion. You need to learn what makes evidence reliable. You have been less than honest many times here. Why would you expect anyone to believe you?

On the "kind" issue, by your claim evolution has been demonstrated. There are many examples of evolution beyond the genus level.

 

[AV1611VET]

Sorry, I am laughing too much at your emphasis on punctuation. Try again without being so silly. Jesus did not speak in English.

When you're done laughing, qv please:

Jesus Rightly Dividing Prophecy

 

[Subduction Zone]

When you're done laughing, qv please:

Jesus Rightly Dividing Prophecy

Not worthy of a qv.

 

[sandybay]

Um ... of the 333 prophecies concerning Jesus Christ, He fulfilled 109 of them at His first advent.

He will fulfill the other 224 at His second advent, the Millennial Reign.

This is why, when He quoted Isaiah 61 ...

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, [← note the comma] and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

... quoted here ...

Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
Luke 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luke 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. [← note the period]
Luke 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Luke 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

... notice He stopped at the comma?

It's because He was to be crucified before He fulfilled the rest of the prophecy; but He will be back to finish it.

I think you are forgetting something, Jesus did not quote anyone or stop at any comma's because he didn't write anything, other people did the writing.

 

[Kylie]

But is a painting "designed" using the criteria you originally gave?

Why wouldn't it be? I said that a designed thing is something that has a clear purpose. Why can't the purpose of a painting be "To represent an image of a particular thing using pigments applied on a surface"?

 

[Kylie]

How could DNA have remained viable without repair mechanisms? How did the specifications for such repair mechanisms just happen to get encoded into that very same DNA? Myself, I think such interdependencies are evidence of engineering. Ymmv, of course.

Woah, hold on there.

Who said anything about DNA? I'm just talking about self replicating molecules. Never said it had to be DNA.

You know what an enzyme is? An enzyme is a molecule that can take two other molecules and put them together (among other things). The enzyme itself is named after what it works on, with "-ase" added to the end. For example, an enzyme that works on Fructose is called Fructase.

Now let's say that we have an enzyme that takes Molecule A and Molecule B and joins them together into Molecule C. We could call this enzyme "Abcase."

Each molecule of Abcase would float around, grabbing an A molecule here, a B molecule there, and then joining them together into Molecule C.

ANd now, what if Molecule C turns out to be Abcase itself? Each Abcase molecule would be making more of itself out of molecule A and molecule B. That's self replication.

And if you had some Abcase molecules that were able to put the A and B molecules together in a slightly different way that made the joining stronger, then this would give it an advantage, and so natural selection would operate to increase the percentage of Abcase molecules with this alteration.

It is entirely plausible that this could have been the way life originally developed. Over time, as the molecules changed, they could have settled on a number of amino acids that worked better, and the molecule could have become more and more adapted to replicating itself. And so you would have the development of DNA as an adaptation to replicate itself better. Over many generations, the repair mechanisms we see today could have evolved as some of the many adaptations that evolution has produced. But it's a mistake to think that the first life forms needed those repair mechanisms, or even that they needed DNA at all.

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

When you're done laughing

Were languages a problem to one who could tell what's on a person's mind, with but only a fleeting glimpse?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gqwXeHI85A

'God might be, the inspiration for, the first detective agency.'

 

[Strathos]

Why are we talking about prophecies and the fulfillment thereof? That doesn't seem to be germane to the topic of the thread.

 

[crjmurray]

Why are we talking about prophecies and the fulfillment thereof? That doesn't seem to be germane to the topic of the thread.

Since no one will provide a sufficient criteria for design, something had to fill the gaps.