Credobaptism and the Doctrine of Creation

Ain't Zwinglian

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When credobaptists say “We don’t baptize infants and children because they do not or cannot have faith” what do they mean?

Are they saying infants and small children do not have the capacity for faith?

Or more specifically, can it be said: Infants are seen as incomplete creatures of God and don’t become complete creatures of God until the Age of Accountability, at which point they can have faith.

If true, how old must a child be, before it can be said the child fully belongs to the human race?

Furthermore, what about the adult severely mentally ill? When baptism is denied to them, are credobaptists saying they will always be incomplete creatures of God? Can church membership and the Lord’s supper be denied to them because baptism was denied to them?

Paedobaptists believe there is no moment in life when a person is more human than another. All humans born have the built in capacity for faith.
 

BobRyan

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When credobaptists say “We don’t baptize infants and children because they do not or cannot have faith” what do they mean?

Are they saying infants and small children do not have the capacity for faith?

How is this even a question?

Newborns, infants etc do not have the capacity for abstract concepts. Is this what you question??

Mark 16:16 The one who has believed and has been baptized will be saved; but the one who has not believed will be condemned.

That is the Bible definition for the path of Baptism. Infants who die are not using that avenue.
 
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BobRyan

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Having said that - I don't claim that God cannot save infants outside of their claim to faith.

Far from it. But it cannot be through baptism.

In 1 John 2:2 - Christ is the atoning sacrifice for the sins of all the world - not just adults.

The infant does not "know to do right".
The Bible says "to the one who knows to do right - to him it is sin".

God has a means for addressing the need of a savior that is also the lot of Infants that die.

Not limbo, not purgatory and not believer's baptism.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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How is this even a question?

Newborns, infants etc do not have the capacity for abstract concepts. Is this what you question??

It's a question because Credo Baptists seem to link the ability to have a spiritual life with having more adult/ adolescent powers of reason when the Bible does not.



Matthew 18:2-4
New International Version

2 He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.


Luke 1:41-44
New International Version

41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.

1 Samuel 3
New International Version

The Lord Calls Samuel
3 The boy Samuel ministered before the Lord under Eli. In those days the word of the Lord was rare; there were not many visions.

2 One night Eli, whose eyes were becoming so weak that he could barely see, was lying down in his usual place. 3 The lamp of God had not yet gone out, and Samuel was lying down in the house of the Lord, where the ark of God was. 4 Then the Lord called Samuel.

Samuel answered, “Here I am.” 5 And he ran to Eli and said, “Here I am; you called me.”

But Eli said, “I did not call; go back and lie down.” So he went and lay down.

6 Again the Lord called, “Samuel!” And Samuel got up and went to Eli and said, “Here I am; you called me.”

“My son,” Eli said, “I did not call; go back and lie down.”

7 Now Samuel did not yet know the Lord: The word of the Lord had not yet been revealed to him.

8 A third time the Lord called, “Samuel!” And Samuel got up and went to Eli and said, “Here I am; you called me.”

Then Eli realized that the Lord was calling the boy. 9 So Eli told Samuel, “Go and lie down, and if he calls you, say, ‘Speak, Lord, for your servant is listening.’” So Samuel went and lay down in his place.

10 The Lord came and stood there, calling as at the other times, “Samuel! Samuel!”

Then Samuel said, “Speak, for your servant is listening.”

11 And the Lord said to Samuel: “See, I am about to do something in Israel that will make the ears of everyone who hears about it tingle. 12 At that time I will carry out against Eli everything I spoke against his family—from beginning to end. 13 For I told him that I would judge his family forever because of the sin he knew about; his sons blasphemed God, and he failed to restrain them. 14 Therefore I swore to the house of Eli, ‘The guilt of Eli’s house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.’”

15 Samuel lay down until morning and then opened the doors of the house of the Lord. He was afraid to tell Eli the vision, 16 but Eli called him and said, “Samuel, my son.”

Samuel answered, “Here I am.”

17 “What was it he said to you?” Eli asked. “Do not hide it from me. May God deal with you, be it ever so severely, if you hide from me anything he told you.” 18 So Samuel told him everything, hiding nothing from him. Then Eli said, “He is the Lord; let him do what is good in his eyes.”

19 The Lord was with Samuel as he grew up, and he let none of Samuel’s words fall to the ground. 20 And all Israel from Dan to Beersheba recognized that Samuel was attested as a prophet of the Lord. 21 The Lord continued to appear at Shiloh, and there he revealed himself to Samuel through his word.
 
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BobRyan

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It's a question because Credo Baptists seem to link the ability to have a spiritual life with powers of reason when the Bible does not.

As per my second post above -- my argument is not that infants cannot be saved by some other means since Jesus is the "Atoning sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only - but for the sins of the whole world" 1 John 2:2

But rather that the infant is not saved by hearing the Gospel, accepting it and choosing to follow Christ in baptism. The infant makes no choice at all and hears no Gospel at all. If that infant dies the salvation of that infant depends not on the choice of an unknowing infant - but on the Gospel regarding atonement and the fact that "to the one that knows to do right and does it not - to him it is sin". James 4:17


Matthew 18:2-4
New International Version

2 He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Is not a case of an infant but a "little child" that does have the ability to trust.


The bible definition of the baptism path to heaven is as follows

Mark 16:16 The one who has believed and has been baptized will be saved; but the one who has not believed will be condemned.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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choosing to follow Christ in baptism.

That is the problem right there.


Proverbs 22:6
New King James Version

6 Train up a child in the way he should go,
And when he is old he will not depart from it.


If you do things right you train a child up to be a follower of Christ from the get go. There is not choice, because this is the best of all options for everybody.
If you do a good job, and are good parent they love God and the Faith repeat the same process, when they leave home and go to college or whatever.
 
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BobRyan

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That is the problem right there.


Proverbs 22:6
New King James Version

6 Train up a child in the way he should go,
And when he is old he will not depart from it.


If you do things right you train a child up to be a follower of Christ from the get go. There is not choice, because this is the best of all options for everybody.
If you do a good job, and are good parent they love God and the Faith repeat the same process, when they leave home and go to college or whatever.


I am not arguing against that at all.

My point is that Mark 16:16 makes the path of baptism very clear. Many parents raise their children to understand the gospel and accept Christ and those children are baptized usually between 9 and 12 years old.

But that does not mean they were not saved until their head was put under the water. 1 Peter 3 says baptism saves you -- but he then adds that it is NOT the point of water touching the flesh - rather it is the "appeal to God for a clean conscience" which the child can make long before being old enough to understand all the abstract concepts connected with baptism.

All formulas that rely on some special feature of the water touching flesh, or a special feature of the one holding the infant being baptized - are looking to the wrong source.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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The bible definition of the baptism path to heaven is as follows

Mark 16:16 The one who has believed and has been baptized will be saved; but the one who has not believed will be condemned.

Mark 16:16 could be seen as a dubious text as it is the longer ending of Mark. The longer ending begins at verse 10. Some Christians only hold to the shorter ending, some the longer. But to solely rely on a definition from the longer ending, for me is questionable.
 
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concretecamper

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Mark 16:16 The one who has believed and has been baptized will be saved; but the one who has not believed will be condemned.
This by no means outlines the order of steps needed to be taken. All this means is you need BOTH belief AND baptism to be saved
 
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The Liturgist

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When credobaptists say “We don’t baptize infants and children because they do not or cannot have faith” what do they mean?

Are they saying infants and small children do not have the capacity for faith?

Or more specifically, can it be said: Infants are seen as incomplete creatures of God and don’t become complete creatures of God until the Age of Accountability, at which point they can have faith.

If true, how old must a child be, before it can be said the child fully belongs to the human race?

Furthermore, what about the adult severely mentally ill? When baptism is denied to them, are credobaptists saying they will always be incomplete creatures of God? Can church membership and the Lord’s supper be denied to them because baptism was denied to them?

Paedobaptists believe there is no moment in life when a person is more human than another. All humans born have the built in capacity for faith.

This I think is a technical problem with credobaptist sacramental theology. I really feel there is a need to promote the baptism and communion of infants, which requires changes to most Western churches, where communion of infants does not happen, for example, in the Latin Rite, until children are seven, owing to a Scholastic misunderstanding of the discernment of the Body of Christ being intellectual rather than noetic. We have to promote the concept of the nous, basically, the soul, which can discern and interact with God regardless of intellectual functioning. While Baptists get some things right, like full immersion (although triple immersion in the Trinitarian formula is ideal), the overall Baptist and credobaptist approach to baptism can be seen as an extension of the error of the Western intellectualism of Sacramental Theology from the Eucharist to Baptism.

This does not negate the great accomplishments of Baptists in terms of moral theology, for example, the current thought leader in this field seems to be the Calvinist Baptist Dr. Albert Mohler, who I regard as the foremost successor in this area to Dr. James Kennedy and Pope John Paul II.* I do not believe the triumph of reversing Roe vs. Wade, which was the among most extreme and liberal abortion laws in the world, treated by the left with Constitutional reverence despite being a product of judicial activism, would have been possible without the help of Baptists.

I also think that Christians, misunderstanding the sacrament of Confession and also the fact that while we are only baptized once, we can remember our Baptism by immersing ourselves in blessed water, which is common in Eastern Orthodox countries on the Feast of Epiphany, or Theophany as they call it (which unlike in the West, always focused on the Baptism of our Lord rather than the Visitation of the Three Magi, something which has been restored in recent years in Roman Catholicism, Anglicanism, and other Protestant churches, but in some the emphasis of Epiphany is still on the Magi, who might better be commemorated on the Sunday before Epiphany).

The other flaw in Credobaptist sacramental theology is that they tend to view the sacraments not as the early church and traditional churches today, such as Lutheranism, Anglicanism, Catholicism, Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy, even traditional Presbyterian/Continental Reformed Calvinism (as opposed to the hybrid of Calvinism and credobaptism we see in Particular Baptists and in Dr. Albert Mohler and many in the SBC), understand them as sacred mysteries by which God the Holy Spirit conveys grace to us by allowing us to recapitulate the Baptism of Christ in the Jordan, thus being baptized in Christ and putting on Christ, and also in the Sacrifice of Christ through recapitulation of and participation in the Last Supper, wherein our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ provided His body and blood as the medicine of immortality, the Baptists instead believe these to be “ordinances”, going beyond Zwinglian symbolism to a full-on memorialism, in which Holy Communion at least is understood merely as a “remembrance” rather than as Calvin, Luther and the early Church Fathers understood it, a mysterious means of grace through which we partake in the Divine Nature, as St. Peter writes, a requirement imposed by our Lord in John 6. Water baptism seems to be differientated in credobaptism from the actual “conversion event”, when someone resolves to be Christian, as opposed to being the culimination of the process of conversion of adults which traditionally involved catechesis and extensive preparation for baptism, which represented the final washing away of hereditary sin and also the sins one had committed in life up to that point.

Confession was understood by Martin Luther, and even the majority of Anglicans, to be the process which combined with Holy Communion to facilitate the remission of sins, with a surprising number of Protestant churches including but not limited to Lutherans and Anglicans offering auricular confession to individual penitents as well as general confessions by the entire Congregation. In a sense, the Altar Call and the Sinner’s Prayer seem to serve a similar purpose to Confession in those Credobaptist churches which adhere to it.

The real problem with the memorialist sacramental theology of Credobaptists is that it seems to be logically incomplete: how could Baptism and the Eucharist be both divine Ordinances and yet not required for Salvation? What happens if one does not engage in them? It lacks the consistency of Patristic and Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian (and increasingly, Continuing Anglicanism in the US), Roman Catholic Scholastic, Calvinist, Lutheran, and Cranmerian Anglican sacramental theology, and suffers from the same problem of requiring a non-literal interpretation of the words of our Lord as Zwinglianism, in which the sacraments are symbols of received grace. Zwinglianism is arguably the worst of the two, since it highly contradicts John 6 and requires us to interpret the Last Supper as Christ saying “This is a symbol of my body” rather than “This is my body,” which is why it is probably less common among clergy at least (but probably fairly common among poorly catechized laity in evangelical non-denominational and Pentecostal churches, even those which baptize infants). Rather, the Baptists focus on a misinterpretation of “do this in remembrance of me”; the word remembrance is, like many English words, less than ideal for understanding the full range of meaning of the original Greek word anamnesis. But this still requires a non-literal interpreration of the words of our Lord at the Last Supper as recorded in the Synoptics and in 1 Corinthians 11, the words of our Lord as recorded in John 6, and indeed the entire Epistle of St. Paul to the Corinthians, which is primarily an exposition of the theology of Baptism and the Eucharist.

This becomes particularly problematic in denominations which insist on extremely literal interpretation of a subset of the Old Testament, especially the Pentateuch but generally the 22 books the Masoretes decided were canonical in the 8th or 9th century, as opposed to the broader range of Old Testament books historically used by Orthodox, Catholics and Protestants (even John Calvin, who regarded Baruch as fully canonical), and historically interpreted both literally and as typological Christological prophecy, in a fusion of the ancient theological schools of Antioch and Alexandria (the former favoring a literal interpretation, the latter favoring a Christological interpretation, but the best Patristic and theological discourse always approaches the Old Testament as both/and, rejecting the false dichotomy; Credobaptism and memorialism, and even some early Anglican theologians such as Richard Hooker, have not been able to explain in a consistent way why the words of our Lord, which we commonly regard as being so important as to rubricate (printing in red letters; rubrics were originally used in liturgical manuscripts for instructions whereas prayers and hymns were printed in black ink; a few centuries ago as multicolor printing became possible it occurred to printers to use the same technique of rubrication to highlight the Words of Christ, himself the Word, hence Red Letter Bibles; indeed the words spoken by our Lord in the New Testament are considered by most to be of such extreme importance that there is even a heresy called “Jesus Words Only” which rejects all scriptural texts except for those spoken by Christ, and a related cult which emigrated from Russia to Canada at the expense of Leo Tolstoy, who paid for their migration, the Doukhobors, or Unitarians, who seem to regard only the Sermon on the Mount as important).

So given how important the words of Christ are, when He tells us we must be born again through baptism which involves the Holy Spirit descending on us as it did on Him in the waters of the Jordan, and when He says “This is my body, broken for you and for many for the remission of sins,” I can only fully appreciate those theological models which interpret these statements in a literal and consistent manner, specifically the models I mentioned earlier, my own preference being Early Church/Eastern Orthodox/Oriental Orthodox/Assyrian and now increasingly American Continuing Anglicanism of the high church variety, such as that espoused by my friend @Shane R , although I can also appreciate Roman Catholic Scholastic sacramental theology, Lutheran sacramental theology and Calvinist sacramental theology. I have to disagree with Credobaptist, Zwinglian, Quaker, and possibly even Salvation Army sacramental theology, and I might even disagree slightly with John Wesley on sacramental theology; his Eucharistic theology stressing a revival of weekly communion was two centuries ahead of its time, but I am not clear on what his baptismal theology was based on edits he made to the Book of Common Prayer for use by Methodists in North America which omitted references to Baptismal Regeneration, but his sacramental theology is at worst only slightly off and he is among the Protestant Reformers I regard as a saint. Even some of the Early Church Fathers made errors; Assyrians such as St. Isaac the Syrian consistently tended to believe in Apokatastasis as a certainty, as did Origen and St. Gregory of Nyssa, while the majority of the early church rejected this. We humans are fallible.

Thus, I can respect the moral leadership of someone like Dr. Albert Mohler and commend the Southern Baptist Convention for its hardline stance against abortion and sexual deviance, because we can make theological errors, without wanting to come across as a Pietist, a movement I somewhat respect but disagree with, as I think correct doctrine is extremely important and beneficial in providing a stable, consistent and defensible faith and the schisms which are mostly the result of the Roman Catholic Church breaking away from the Eastern Orthodox and the Protestant Reformation occurring in reaction to certain Roman Catholic doctrines that the Orthodox churches never believed, resulting in a multiplicity of competing erroneous doctrines taught by different denominations which are less consistent than the faith of the Early Church particularly as expressed by the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, the Assyrians, and the Anglo Catholic Anglicans, particularly those American Continuing Anglican churches which are now doctrinally almost identical to Eastern Orthodoxy. But still, I am grateful for the work of Credobaptist Evangelicals and Baptists, especially the SBC, which has become embroiled in a scandal and needs our prayers; any church can fall victim to abusive leaders, and the devil does attack and try to corrupt church leaders. The Roman church was badly hurt by the sex abuse scandal, and people have tried to exploit that to attack their core doctrine, which is nonsensical, and the SBC is essentially experiencing the same thing now. So I am not keen to particularly criticize the Southern Baptist Convention given all the good work they are doing. There is a demonic element to these abuse scandals, in that those churches which become most vocal about the evils of our society like sexual depravity and abortion seem to have incidents like this occurring, which feels like a devilish act of sabotage intended to depict them wrongly as hypocrites (the Eucharistic liturgy of the Roman Catholic church in all of its rites (Roman, Ambrosian, Dominican, Byzantine, Coptic, Maronite, East Syriac, etc..
) I am aware of makes a point of having the priest declare his unworthiness to celebrate the Eucharist, and good Baptist ministers traditionally have an obvious humility.

* In due course I think the next thought leader in moral theology will be an Eastern Orthodox priest who converted after graduating a Calvinist seminary and spending a year in the Reformed Episcopal Church, whose well respected bishop at the time ordained some priests who were trying to decide between Calvinism and Eastern Orthodoxy.
 
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The Liturgist

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Mark 16:16 could be seen as a dubious text as it is the longer ending of Mark. The longer ending begins at verse 10. Some Christians only hold to the shorter ending, some the longer. But to solely rely on a definition from the longer ending, for me is questionable.

While I accept the Longer Ending because of the three Alexandrian text type Gospels, the Codex Alexandrinus has it (along with Gospel text closer to the Byzantine text type), and more importantly, because it was fairly extensively referred to and even quoted by many 2nd century Chudch Fathers, whereas the only reason to doubt it is its absence from Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus, it should be noted as Eusebius of Caesarea pointed out that the authenticity of the Longer Ending pericope was not confirmed even at the time. It has also been misinterpreted by a heretical sect, the “Jesus Name” Oneness Pentecostal churches which do not baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost which is prescribed in Matthew 28:19 but rather use the longer ending of Mark as justification to revive the ancient anti-Trinitarian doctrine of Sabellianism, also known as Modalism, in which the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are modes rather than persons, contra Nicene Christology, indeed Sabellius was in the 2nd century, so abuse of Mark 16:9-20 enabled that.

Of course all scripture can be misinterpreted and abused, but Mark 16:9-20 has also been used as the main doctrinal basis for the dangerous and reckless practices of the Snake Handling Pentecostals of the Appalachians, who are Nicene Christians, and a very sweet pastor of that sect was interviewed by Fr. Peter Owen-Jones in Around the World in 80 Faiths, but I cannot condone their practices; what I and most others think is a special blessing that was and probably still is granted to the Apostles and certain other Christians engaged in missionary work does not equate to recklessly passing venomous snakes around a congregation. And people do get bit, and that should be a sign that they are misinterpreting the pericope in question, but they still use this.

Now, my belief is that the Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus, based on their provenance, are probably related to an order of 50 bibles placed with the Church of Caesarea early in the reign of Emperor Constantine. Another order of 50 bibles was placed with the Church of Alexandria. Because Eusebius, the Bishop of Caesarea equivocated at the Council of Nicaea, famously declaring “I sign this with my hand and not my heart,” it seems probable that the early church would prefer the textual variant cultivated in Alexandria, where the bishop was St. Athanasius, the main prosecutor of Arius at Nicaea, who spent 25 years in exile in the most extreme parts of the Roman Empire after an Arian conspiracy gained control over St. Constantine’s heir Constantius. St. Athanasius was the protodeacon of the archbishop St. Alexander, who had initially deposed Arius for heresy, leading to the controversy and schism which became so divisive St. Constantine became involved. One of the orders of 50 bibles was for the Roman church, which apparently needed new Greek manuscripts as they were preparing for a replacement of the Vetus Latina, and this was right after the Diocletian Persecution, in which large numbers of Scriptures, Liturgical Texts, and other holy books were destroyed, whereas the other order was for 50 books which were to be needed in the new Imperial capital, Byzantion, which St. Constantine called New Rome and soon was called Constantinople in his honor.

It seems reasonable that these manuscripts were copied from those bulk orders for local use, and while the idea that Codex Alexandrinus represents the output of Alexandria and more closely resembles the dominant Byzantine Text Type as well as the Western Text Type seen in the Vetus Latina and Vetus Syra, and Eusebius of Caesarea is the first person to point out a controversy over this issue, meaning he cared and had an opinion, but this is still speculation on my part and the exact provenance of these manuscripts is unknown.

That being said, given the frequent abuse of this codex, while I cannot condone the deprecation of it we see in the NIV and other recent translations, and believe it should be in the lectionary, like other controversial scripture such as the entire Psalm 138 Super Flumina “By the Rivers of Babylon”, because these need to be explained, as Psalm 138 does not literally condone killing children, and Mark 16:9-20 doesn’t mean we should handle venomous snakes and pass our hands through blow torches.

However, for doctrinal purposes, the argument can be made that it is redundant and is not meant as a doctrinal statement but as an promise that God will protect in diverse ways those who help spread His Gospel; invincibility is not guaranteed, but those working to spread the true Gospel, rightly divided, will be blessed. And when we look at some of the more dangerous evangelizations completed by the Church, such as the conversions of Armenia by St. Gregory the Illuminator, the adjacent country of Georgia (confusingly also called Iberia; even more confusingly, Azerbaijan at one time was called Albania) by St. Nino (an Armenian princess), the Angles by St. Augustine of Canterbury (not to be confused with St. Augustine of Hippo), who also reunified the scattered remnants of the church in the former province of Britannia, which had survived the collapse of Roman government but struggled before his arrival, the conversion of Ireland by St. Patrick, and the conversion of the Aleuts and Sitkas and other Alaskan natives by St. Herman and St. Innocent, and the work of my own relatives who were missionaries in Alaska, and I do believe this.

That, to me, is the message of Mark 16:9-20 : a promise by God to protect the Apostles and their successors who preach the true Gospel, in a proper and conscientious way consistent with the highest ideals of Christianity and not driven by ulterior motives. As a doctrinal reference, Matthew 28 takes priority, obviously because it is the universal practice of the Christian Church in all denominations to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, and the content in the Longer Ending pericope of Mark, aside from the promise to protect apostles, is mostly identical to Matthew and the other canonical Gospels.
 
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Wow that is a very substantial post! @The Liturgist You should consider writing for Christian stack exchange. Something I dabbled in for a few months.

You know about the open source/public domain liturgy group I am a founding member of? We are about to release our first texts, and we plan on publishing them in several places, I myself right here on ChristianForums on my CF.com blog so that forum members can easily see the work.

I don’t personally like other online communities, because many are quite toxic and few have the ecumenical diversity and fellowship opportunity of CF.com. And some have bizarre rules, for example, I once saw a small forum whose rules, in a flagrant bit of discrimination against Roman Catholics (which triggers me, even though I am not myself Roman Catholic, because I am sick of anti-Catholic prejudice) prohibit discussing Catholic doctrine. Since according to the Nicene Creed, whoever confesses in it believes in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and the debate between different denominations like the Anglicans, the Roman Catholics, the Baptists, the Congregationalists, the Pietist denominations, the Lutherans, the Calvinists, the Eastern Orthodox, and so on is ecclesiological, relating to how Catholicity is determined and what makes a church Catholic, and since ecclesiology is arguably not theology per se, if the mods on that forum were smarter, they would have realizes that their rule, aside from being hugely discriminatory against the world’s largest church, and one of the most important charities, if interpreted literally, would not prevent debates between members of these different denominations about issues like Papal authority, the authority of the local church, etc, but it would prohibit the discussion of all Nicene Christian theology, thus limiting the website to Arians, Unitarians and other heretics, who the rules paradoxically also ban. So the moral of that story is to use CF.com.
 
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fhansen

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When credobaptists say “We don’t baptize infants and children because they do not or cannot have faith” what do they mean?

Are they saying infants and small children do not have the capacity for faith?

Or more specifically, can it be said: Infants are seen as incomplete creatures of God and don’t become complete creatures of God until the Age of Accountability, at which point they can have faith.

If true, how old must a child be, before it can be said the child fully belongs to the human race?

Furthermore, what about the adult severely mentally ill? When baptism is denied to them, are credobaptists saying they will always be incomplete creatures of God? Can church membership and the Lord’s supper be denied to them because baptism was denied to them?

Paedobaptists believe there is no moment in life when a person is more human than another. All humans born have the built in capacity for faith.
Historically the church has taught that the faith of the family and community stands in for the infant until they’re able to be responsible for the baptismal vows and have faith for themselves, or to deny them for that matter. There’s a corporate aspect to salvation as well as an individual one; God uses other people in bringing us to Himself.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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You know about the open source/public domain liturgy group I am a founding member of?

That's something I might have heard and passing but suffered from "in one ear, out the other" syndrome. :)
 
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Pavel Mosko

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I don’t personally like other online communities, because many are quite toxic and few have the ecumenical diversity and fellowship opportunity of CF.com. And some have bizarre rules, for example, I once saw a small forum whose rules, in a flagrant bit of discrimination against Roman Catholics (which triggers me, even though I am not myself Roman Catholic, because I am sick of anti-Catholic prejudice) prohibit discussing Catholic doctrine. Since according to the Nicene Creed, whoever confesses in it believes in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and the debate between different denominations like the Anglicans, the Roman Catholics, the Baptists, the Congregationalists, the Pietist denominations, the Lutherans, the Calvinists, the Eastern Orthodox, and so on is ecclesiological, relating to how Catholicity is determined and what makes a church Catholic, and since ecclesiology is arguably not theology per se, if the mods on that forum were smarter, they would have realizes that their rule, aside from being hugely discriminatory against the world’s largest church, and one of the most important charities, if interpreted literally, would not prevent debates between members of these different denominations about issues like Papal authority, the authority of the local church, etc, but it would prohibit the discussion of all Nicene Christian theology, thus limiting the website to Arians, Unitarians and other heretics, who the rules paradoxically also ban. So the moral of that story is to use CF.com.

Yeah I avoided this place your years due to it's many rules and it looked very Balkanized, compared to some free range places I use to be at that slowly went belly up.


Haven't seen Stack Exchange as that, it simply is a place where people ask various questions of all kinds, I think there are maybe 1000 topical stacks sites where people can ask about all kinds questions appropriate to the topical stack. And the goal of it is to have a kind of database FAQ library. e.g. There is a general Christian one, I believe a separate one for Biblical hermeneutics etc. besides ones on about every topic you can think of from consumer goods, to the academic.


I'm also a member of Jewish Stack Exchange just because I wanted a place to occasionally go to inquire about some esoteric aspect of ancient or Second temple Judaism. And well, I trust some of the scholarly objectivity over there a bit more than what a lot of people would do here, which would be to post the question on the Messianic board here. (My primary issue is their often is a big Protestant bias/orientation with many Messianics, especially from the nonsacramental traditions of Protestantism).
 
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The Liturgist

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Historically the church has taught that the faith of the family and community stands in for the infant until they’re able to be responsible for the baptismal vows and have faith for themselves, or to deny them for that matter. There’s a corporate aspect to salvation as well as an individual one; God uses other people in bringing us to Himself.

Additionally, baptism has immediate spiritual benefits for the infant. I mean, we know from the experiences of the early Church and the Bible that demons attack children. Baptism includes an exorcism and from an Orthodox sacramental theology perspective my understanding (correct me if I am wrong please @HTacianas or @prodromos ) is that Chrismation prevents demonic possession unless you intentionally engage in something of a demonic nature, like messing with the occult, which young children will not do. And furthermore, the Litany for Baptism in the Eastern Orthodox Church ensures the child receives from that moment forward a guardian angel.
 
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The Liturgist

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Actually this part of the Eastern Orthodox Baptismal liturgy outlines the many blessings infant baptism can provide. Bear in mind that as soon as someone is enrolled as a catechumen they are considered a part of the Orthodox Church and if they die before receiving Baptism receive a full Orthodox funeral, which is not available in cases such as suicide not related to mental illness, where the Orthodox Church is not reasonably confident that the deceased has reposed in Christ. So all of these spiritual benefits, which actually are part of the exorcism and insufflation, which precedes the Baptism itself, accompany baptism:

Deacon: Let us pray to the Lord.

People: Lord, have mercy.

Priest:
Master and Lord, the One who Is, who made man according to your image and likeness and gave him the power of eternal life; then, when he fell through sin, did not disdain him, but provided for the salvation of the world through the incarnation of your Christ, do you yourself receive also this creature of yours, whom you have redeemed from the slavery of the foe, into the heavenly Kingdom. Open the eyes of his/her mind so that the enlightenment of your Gospel may dawn on him/her. Yoke to his/her life an Angel of light, to deliver him/her from every attack of the adversary, from evil encounter, from the noon-day demon, from evil visions.

Then the Priest breathes on the mouth, forehead and breast of the Catechumen, saying:

Drive out of him/her every evil and unclean spirit hiding and lurking in his/her heart. (He says this three times) The spirit of error, the spirit of wickedness, the spirit of idolatry and diabolic oppression; the spirit of lying and every uncleanness which operates in accordance with the teaching of the devil. And make him/her a rational sheep of the flock of your Christ, an honoured member of your Church, a vessel made holy, a child of light and an heir of your Kingdom. So that, having lived in accordance with your commandments, preserving the seal undamaged and keeping his/her garment undefiled, he/she may attain to the blessedness of the Saints in your Kingdom.

Aloud:
By the grace and pity and love for mankind of your Only-Begotten Son, with whom you are blessed, together with your all-holy, good and life-giving Spirit, now and for ever, and to the ages of ages.

People: Amen.


Now, a lot of traditional Orthodox will say these sacraments are efficacious only within an Orthodox church, and traditional Catholics will say the same thing, and traditional Protestants might as well, but I am an optimist when it comes to ecumenical reconciliation and I find it difficult to regard any Nicene Christian as being separate from the Church. I don’t want to get into my ecclesiology, which could be terribly wrong and is certain to be controversial, but my goal in showing insufflation from the Eastern Orthodox baptismal liturgy is to show that baptism is a truly special sacrament which the early church believed did a number of things, far more than being a mere affirmation of faith. Even the limited baptisms of St. John the Baptist were implied to have a propitiatory effect.
 
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Here is the traditional Baptismal Liturgy used by Continuing High Church Anglicans, and Continuing Anglicans in general, in the US: http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/1928Standard/baptism.pdf

This further illustrates the beliefs of traditional Christians, it being interesting to consider that despite the vast liturgical difference, the Continuing Anglicans of a High Church or Anglo Catholic persuasion generally have the closest sacramental theology to the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches (and the Assyrian Church of the East, except the Assyrians enumerate a slightly different set of seven sacraments and the others are sacramentals, whereas Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholics and Continuing Anglo Catholics, who are now freed of the burden of having to be a broad church accommodating evangelical Anglicans whose views on sacraments are much closer to Calvinism, or in the case of the Reformed Episcopal Church, are Calvinist), agree that there are seven sacraments: Baptism, Communion, Confession, Matrimony, Holy Orders (Ordination), Unction (annointing of the sick with oil) and Chrismation (also called Confirmation). The main difference is that Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrians, and usually, with some exceptions due to Latinization, the Eastern Catholic equivalents of these churches will perform Baptism and Chrismation on infants just before the Eucharistic Liturgy, at which time they will proceed to give communion to the newly baptized infants, whereas in the West for some reason a practice of waiting was implemented, which earlier I attributed to a scholastic misunderstanding of the Eucharist requiring an intellectual rather than noetic discernment of the Body of Christ.

When I received communion for the first time I can remember at age 2 or 3 or 4, it was one of the most amazing experiences of my life, really the highlight of my life up until that point. It was so special I naively tried dipping bread in grape juice (it was at a Methodist church, the grape juice intinction being a standard Methodist procedure) thinking I could somehow replicate it with the ingredients.
 
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This by no means outlines the order of steps needed to be taken. All this means is you need BOTH belief AND baptism to be saved

For Lutherans to even speak of baptism as somehow without or apart from faith amounts to nonsense. Since we see in the promises attached to Baptism the reality of faith, that God works and creates faith as grace. Since it is impossible to speak of Baptism except as "the washing of water with the word" (Ephesians 5:26) and wherever this word of God is God is working to create faith (Romans 10:17). Thus to speak of baptism without faith is like speaking of being born without birth. The very fact of being born means one is birthed; likewise, when one is baptized that one has faith. That's what being "born again" means, born of God, as a believer, "by water and the Spirit" (John 3:5, Titus 3:5).

Baptized infants have faith because God is the One who gives faith. That's what the Bible says, and it's what the fathers of the Church have confessed (e.g. Sts. John Chrysostom and Augustine both explicitly teach this).

-CryptoLutheran
 
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