Credit and the poor

[smaneck]

Voucher means more choice for poor kids.

No, it makes segregation easier for the Middle Class.

 

[JackofSpades]

@Jane

Heh, I wrote it and then said to myself "This was a bad example, she won't let me get away with it" but I left it there anyways, so here we go:

Yeah, I know what NT says about slavery. However, if the book is understood being antipolitical and focusing on kingdom of heaven, then it doesn't so much take position on things like slavery. Rather it just accepts everything as it is in political system without paying much attention how good or bad it is, and focuses on matters of religion.

But you are right in sense that if we go to biblical literalism, there are more verses to support slavery than there are against it. How well that fits into intuitive picture of what character of Jesus was about is much more debatable tho.

Why I think Jesus would make a fine case for anti-slavery movement is his general "treat people well" message and his symapthy for suffering people and I guess we agree that slaves were not being treated well generally. But its true that all this doesn't necessarily equal anti-slavery being "the Jesus way", it could aswell be "basic rights for slaves" without abandoning the concept of slavery or something like that.

 

[dcalling]

Meaning that he did not intend to erect a new state or become its king, NOT meaning that he had nothing to tell people on how to manage a society. There's PLENTLY of very direct words on the topic on how his followers ought to treat the less fortunate: feeding them, clothing them, tending to their illnesses.

Even his famous "render unto Caesar's what is Caesar's" is anything but an endorsement of the Roman empire, if you bother to take a closer look at the context and meaning of the entire episode.

You misunderstood me.

Jesus tell us we should love others as ourselves, enough said, that means we need to take care of the needy, the poor, should not torture (even if that might save us from some certain terrorism death, because we should have trusted the Lord and not ourselves).

The above is what we should do (or at least those who believe in Jesus), but since we are not perfect, if you apply too much communist ideas (i.e. evenly distribute wealth) it will mess up.

 

[dlamberth]

If we are lead by God in a perfect system where there is no evil, it will be more like the communist system in my mind.

I don't know if I'm correct in this, but I've read that in Rome those first followers of Jesus did in fact lead a life that today we could call communism. Along those same lines, I have also read that one of the way they established a foothold in Rome and grew is because they freely gave their riches to feed the poor and helped those in need and gave of themselves to the better good. How true that all is I don't know. But it does fall in line with what in my mind a true follower of Jesus would look like. And I can't think of a better way in which a religion could bring God to the people.

.

 

[dcalling]

You can't be serious. There are no private boarding schools that charge only would a voucher would pay.

Check here for boarding school prices:
Boarding Schools with the Least Expensive Tuition - All Schools | BoardingSchoolReview.com

As for public ones, you don't need a voucher to go to one of those. What you need is the ability to get in!

You can always get in a public school, the problem is some of the schools in poor neighborhoods have students running around and no one cares, the ones who want to learn can't because of that. (there was a documentry on that from either NBC or ABC forget which one). We need a way so if they wish to learn, they can, just like our own kids.

 

[dcalling]

I don't know if I'm correct in this, but I've read that in Rome those first followers of Jesus did in fact lead a life that today we could call communism. Along those same lines, I have also read that one of the way they established a foothold in Rome and grew is because they freely gave their riches to feed the poor and helped those in need and gave of themselves to the better good. How true that all is I don't know. But it does fall in line with what in my mind a true follower of Jesus would look like. And I can't think of a better way in which a religion could bring God to the people.

.

I learnt that too, but that system didn't last too long did it? Not even on the group of people who try to follow God.

I myself give over 10% of my income pre-tax, which is far from what Christ has demanded ("sale all your have and follow me"). I know people who did that, missionaries in poor countries with their own kids play in mud, not me, I am just a sinful man.

However I will NEVER force what Christ demanded to others, because God likes willing contributions. If you ever try to force this on people, that is against the will of God and bring bad consequences, just see how the communist countries fares.

 

[Supreme]

I am distressed by the number of loaning agencies that have sprung up here in the UK, this Christian nation, that extort the poor. They give loans out, with stupidly high and unreasonable interest- and their main demographic are poorer people anyway. I can hardly imagine it'd be what Christ would want.

The Government has taken steps to try and reign them in a bit, but every time I watch TV, there seems to be another advert for a new lending agency.

 

[gord44]

edit to make my point better later.

 

[dlamberth]

I learnt that too, but that system didn't last too long did it? Not even on the group of people who try to follow God.

I myself give over 10% of my income pre-tax, which is far from what Christ has demanded ("sale all your have and follow me"). I know people who did that, missionaries in poor countries with their own kids play in mud, not me, I am just a sinful man.

However I will NEVER force what Christ demanded to others, because God likes willing contributions. If you ever try to force this on people, that is against the will of God and bring bad consequences, just see how the communist countries fares.

What I take away from this has nothing to do with how long it lasted. What I see is a system with a proven track record where Christianity works best.


.

 

[dcalling]

What I take away from this has nothing to do with how long it lasted. What I see is a system with a proven track record where Christianity works best.

.

That period is certainly not when Christianity works best, or at least not for us to judge. They have a small set of dedicated people, and when community is small and under stress, they depend more on God instead of themselfs, you see this time and time again when the Jews were in trouble, and they started to depend on God, and God saves them, same here.

There is no proven record, because you only heard about that system once, and it didn't even last, just like how they elected another to replace the 12th disciple, instead of waiting for God, who choose Paul.

 

[smaneck]

Check here for boarding school prices:
Boarding Schools with the Least Expensive Tuition - All Schools | BoardingSchoolReview.com

Go to their own websites and read it more carefully. For some of them this is the price of tuition only. It does not include room and board. Only one of them has tuition at a level that could be covered by a voucher.

Two of the cheaper ones the Advanced Academy of Georgia and the New Mexico Military Institute are not exactly boarding schools. The Advanced Academy is more or less a dormitory for college students of high school age who attended West Georgia State University. If I had remained in Georgia, I might have ended up sending my son there. The New Mexico Military Institute is a state supported high school and junior college.

Incidentally, the state supported boarding schools in Mississippi (the School of Science and Math and the School of the Arts) only charge about $500 a semester and that is waived if your family is eligible for the free lunch program. (Can you even feed a teenager on that amount of money?) The catch is you have to pretty much be a straight A student to get in in the first place

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Tax-sponsored school systems are not inefficient by default.

Finland consistently appears in the top ten charts of top education countries, and their schools are all tuition-free, with fully subsidized meals served to full-term students.

This link provides a quick overview of where they're at - it's simply amazing.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

The problem I see with microcredits is that they're still a for-profit venture, ultimately aiming at generating more money for the investors, not at assisting people. As with "normal" credits for comparatively well-off people, banks will specifically calculate on the fact that some people will be unable to meet the demands at the end of the year.

The growth fetish is perhaps one of the most persistent systemic errors of our current market economy. Its long-term consequences are *always* catastrophic, even if they may sustain a short-term gain.

 

[smaneck]

just like how they elected another to replace the 12th disciple, instead of waiting for God, who choose Paul.

Where does the Bible indicate that God wanted Paul to be the 12th disciple?

 

[dcalling]

Where does the Bible indicate that God wanted Paul to be the 12th disciple?

God showed a vision to Paul, and Paul's actions spoke itself.

 

[smaneck]

God showed a vision to Paul, and Paul's actions spoke itself.

And this is evidence Paul was supposed to be the 12th disciple how?

 

[dcalling]

And this is evidence Paul was supposed to be the 12th disciple how?

He done a lot of work spread the word of God, without force but with Holy Spirit. Also I think he was called brother by one of the disciples.

Also just curious, any reason so many of you don't want to give the poor kids a choice (by given them vouchers)? Is there a better way?

 

[smaneck]

He done a lot of work spread the word of God, without force but with Holy Spirit. Also I think he was called brother by one of the disciples.

So if the disciples call someone 'brother' that makes them one of the twelve?

Also just curious, any reason so many of you don't want to give the poor kids a choice (by given them vouchers)? Is there a better way?

As I indicated, I don't believe they give poor people a choice, I think they make it easier for the Middle Class to segregate themselves from the poor.

As for a 'better way' did you read what I wrote about Charter Schools as a possible alternative?

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Paul also calls several other people "apostle": Barnabas, Andronicus and Junia (yep, a woman), Silas, Timothy and Apollo - and seventy unnamed people.

Also, different gospels give different names to "the Twelve", and those mentioned in one aren't mentioned in another. It seems quite probable that "the Twelve" are a rather ham-fisted attempt at symbolism: one for each tribe of Israel or some such. But this tradition obviously did not exist when Paul wrote his letters. The only honorific he uses (somewhat derogatively) is "pillars".

 

[smaneck]

Paul also calls several other people "apostle": Barnabas, Andronicus and Junia (yep, a woman), Silas, Timothy and Apollo - and seventy unnamed people.

Also, different gospels give different names to "the Twelve", and those mentioned in one aren't mentioned in another. It seems quite probable that "the Twelve" are a rather ham-fisted attempt at symbolism: one for each tribe of Israel or some such. But this tradition obviously did not exist when Paul wrote his letters. The only honorific he uses (somewhat derogatively) is "pillars".

My recollection is that Paul does refer to the "Twelve" in connection with those who saw the risen Christ in 1 Corinthians. It is a very formulaic passage which suggests some sort of hierarchy. He says firs the Twelve, then the five hundred and last himself.
That indicates he did *not* consider himself one of the Twelve disciples.