Credit and the poor

[dcalling]

The whole basis of Christian Reconstructionalism is implementing the scripture in our political system. Since the Bible speaks of the institution of slavery, they think we should re institute it.

Wonder which institution of slavery you are talking about.

 

[dcalling]

Not so. The voucher is only worth what the voucher allows. Parents must make up the difference. And except in Pennsylvania they won't have school buses to get their kids to school.

The voucher is made to pay for excat the cost of average schools, so if you don't need to pay anything for public school now, you don't need to pay anything for public schools with a voucher.

And that gives some poor kids at least a chance, unlike many of us who live in OK neighborhoods (of course there are those middle class who oppose to the vouchers because they are afraid poor kids will get in their schools, I think that is where the biggest opposition are).

 

[keith99]

Yea it is the middle class that opposes vouchers!

Right, teh people who either are sending their kids to private schools and scraping by to do it or would love to but can't afford $12,000 - $15,000 or even the $9,000 that a good Catholic school costs. Yea, right. Those already sending their kids don't want en extra $9,000 each and the one who can't yeat don't want to be $9,000 per kid closer.

Not to mention that vouchers will not include transportation so it will be rare for that to lead to more poor kids attending schools in better areas.

Try again.

The voucher is made to pay for excat the cost of average schools, so if you don't need to pay anything for public school now, you don't need to pay anything for public schools with a voucher.

And that gives some poor kids at least a chance, unlike many of us who live in OK neighborhoods (of course there are those middle class who oppose to the vouchers because they are afraid poor kids will get in their schools, I think that is where the biggest opposition are).

 

[dcalling]

Yea it is the middle class that opposes vouchers!

Right, teh people who either are sending their kids to private schools and scraping by to do it or would love to but can't afford $12,000 - $15,000 or even the $9,000 that a good Catholic school costs. Yea, right. Those already sending their kids don't want en extra $9,000 each and the one who can't yeat don't want to be $9,000 per kid closer.

Not to mention that vouchers will not include transportation so it will be rare for that to lead to more poor kids attending schools in better areas.

Try again.

Have you heard the story that a poor black women got sent to Jail (or almost) for using her parent's house for her kids school? All she wants is a better school for her kids. Why would you deny her the chance?

I would even support to not given vouchers to parents who made over $xxx per year (or reduce it gradually). You need to give the poor a chance of school.

 

[keith99]

Complete non sequitur to what i said.

Have you heard the story that a poor black women got sent to Jail (or almost) for using her parent's house for her kids school? All she wants is a better school for her kids. Why would you deny her the chance?

I would even support to not given vouchers to parents who made over $xxx per year (or reduce it gradually). You need to give the poor a chance of school.

 

[dcalling]

Complete non sequitur to what i said.

Voucher means more choice for poor kids. Transportation is easier to deal with than rent buy more expensive house. If the parents are willing to make sarcrifives for their kids, we should make their life easier

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

She definitely have communist leanings

If that's what you gleaned from my posts, your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired.

 

[dcalling]

If that's what you gleaned from my posts, your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired.

Maybe I misread you, in that case sorry. I came from communist back ground, saw some pretty bad things. The theories of Karl Marx looks very nice, but it got major flaws when used in real life, much worse than the problems it is trying to fix.

Anyway, this is totally unrelated to religion, sorry for detracting.

 

[smaneck]

Have you heard the story that a poor black women got sent to Jail (or almost) for using her parent's house for her kids school? All she wants is a better school for her kids. Why would you deny her the chance?

I would even support to not given vouchers to parents who made over $xxx per year (or reduce it gradually). You need to give the poor a chance of school.

There is another alternative to vouchers and that is charter schools which stay in the neighborhood.

 

[smaneck]

Voucher means more choice for poor kids. Transportation is easier to deal with than rent buy more expensive house. If the parents are willing to make sarcrifives for their kids, we should make their life easier

You really have no idea how the poor live if you think transportation isn't a big problem. I can't tell you how difficult it is for them to by gas if they are lucky enough to have a car.

 

[dcalling]

You really have no idea how the poor live if you think transportation isn't a big problem. I can't tell you how difficult it is for them to by gas if they are lucky enough to have a car.

check out boarding schools. There are expensive ones, but there are good and cheap ones. The public ones are free but few in between.

All they need is a chance, that if they want to learn, give them a chance. There are working class parents that send their kids to private schools right now, and a voucher will help them that much.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Maybe I misread you, in that case sorry. I came from communist back ground, saw some pretty bad things. The theories of Karl Marx looks very nice, but it got major flaws when used in real life, much worse than the problems it is trying to fix.

The bolded part is basically what I've been saying in the parts of my posts that dealt with Communism.


But since you mentioned religion, and Christianity specifically: how is it possible that evangelical/fundamentalist Christianity is so strongly allied with the political right, whose goals revolve mostly around destroying welfare, gutting social security nets, and shovelling more money into the pockets of those who are already humongously rich?
What the "Tea Party" and even the less insane parts of the GOP advocate strikes me as the virtual ANTITHESIS of Christianity, promoting a "dog eat dog", "pull yourself up by the bootstrings or suffocate", "devil take the hindmost" ideology.

Staff Edit: Cartoon

 

[JackofSpades]

I haven't so far been convinced by any attempt to make Jesus a cover boy for any political party or ideology. Save perhaps some temporary activist movements which have had very limited human rights - related goals, such as abandoning slavery.

I see Jesus as antipolitical character. Every time when something related to politics was asked of him, he gave answers which were more related to religion than actual question asked.

Way how Jesus is portrayed in political propaganda tells much more about mechanics of political propaganda (People like Jesus = Let's represent Jesus being same us = People like us) than Jesus.

Since Jesus made so little direct political claims its kinda easy to read whatever agenda we want into stories about him. I personally see his message (and message of the NT as a whole, altho Paul focuses on religious community aswell) being about individuals spirituality, religion and morality and having very little to do with societal agendas.

 

[dcalling]

The bolded part is basically what I've been saying in the parts of my posts that dealt with Communism.


But since you mentioned religion, and Christianity specifically: how is it possible that evangelical/fundamentalist Christianity is so strongly allied with the political right, whose goals revolve mostly around destroying welfare, gutting social security nets, and shovelling more money into the pockets of those who are already humongously rich?
What the "Tea Party" and even the less insane parts of the GOP advocate strikes me as the virtual ANTITHESIS of Christianity, promoting a "dog eat dog", "pull yourself up by the bootstrings or suffocate", "devil take the hindmost" ideology.

Jane,

If we are lead by God in a perfect system where there is no evil, it will be more like the communist system in my mind.

But if you use that system in our current world with all the imperfections, you will see the result as in Russia/China/Cambodia, hell on earth, literally. smaneck is a historian so she might relate.

 

[dcalling]

I haven't so far been convinced by any attempt to make Jesus a cover boy for any political party or ideology. Save perhaps some temporary activist movements which have had very limited human rights - related goals, such as abandoning slavery.

I see Jesus as antipolitical character. Every time when something related to politics was asked of him, he gave answers which were more related to religion than actual question asked.

Way how Jesus is portrayed in political propaganda tells much more about mechanics of political propaganda (People like Jesus = Let's represent Jesus being same us = People like us) than Jesus.

Since Jesus made so little direct political claims its kinda easy to read whatever agenda we want into stories about him. I personally see his message (and message of the NT as a whole, altho Paul focuses on religious community aswell) being about individuals spirituality, religion and morality and having very little to do with societal agendas.

Yep. Jesus specifically said his kindom is no of this world.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

If you manage to wriggle out of very clear, very specific statements such as "what you have done to the least of these, you have done to me", or "it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye than for a rich man to enter the kingdom", you have truly warped the gospel and created a god in your own image - an ugly, Scrooge-like image at that.

Your assertion that everything will go to hell if we (as a society) tend to the sick and feed the hungry is the most callous and simplistic nonsense I have read in a long time. North Korea is NOT the only alternative to the broken and hopeless society you find in the ghettos of the United States.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Jack of Spades: it is interesting that you should consider the abolition of slavery one of the few typically Christian political stances, as this is one of those concepts that the Bible (both "Old Testament" and New) VERY clearly approves of:

The Old Testament never calls the practice into question, the gospels are ENTIRELY silent on the topic, never as much as challenging it even a bit, and the Pauline epistles even contain the case of an escaped slave, who is commanded to return to his master because all earthly authority is "GOD's" authority, and it wouldn't do to break the law.

(And yes, Paul tells the master that it might be better if he freed the slave, but that's written from the perspective of someone who thought that the world was going to end Any Second Now - which is why he also wrote that it'd be better not to waste any time getting married if one could help it: because THE KINGDOM was just around the corner.)

In short: although liberal Christians were at the forefront of the abolition movement, the ones who had the most scriptural support were always the conservatives in favour of slavery.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Yep. Jesus specifically said his kindom is no of this world.

Meaning that he did not intend to erect a new state or become its king, NOT meaning that he had nothing to tell people on how to manage a society. There's PLENTLY of very direct words on the topic on how his followers ought to treat the less fortunate: feeding them, clothing them, tending to their illnesses.

Even his famous "render unto Caesar's what is Caesar's" is anything but an endorsement of the Roman empire, if you bother to take a closer look at the context and meaning of the entire episode.

 

[faroukfarouk]

In the Old Testament, the accounts of the bondservant being offered his or her freedom and choosing to use his of her freedom to serve willingly and having the ear pierced as a sign, are a picture of the Lord Jesus Who 'took upon Him the form of a servant' and 'became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross' (Philippians 2).

 

[smaneck]

check out boarding schools. There are expensive ones, but there are good and cheap ones. The public ones are free but few in between.

You can't be serious. There are no private boarding schools that charge only would a voucher would pay. As for public ones, you don't need a voucher to go to one of those. What you need is the ability to get in!

There are working class parents that send their kids to private schools right now, and a voucher will help them that much.

Not all working class parents are poor.