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Alright, we have arrived at the same page.
Moves on*
That we could eventually understand what God knows?
There used to be a time where people thought earth was flat, and we eventually learned what God knows, that the earth was round. This isn't an impossibility.
Scratches head*
Please don't tell me what I wish for. You don't have any idea what I wish for, or even if I wish for anything.But you don't wish to believe. If you actually wished to believe you would seek out God with an open mind. But since your mind is not open you will see nothing, but then complain about seeing nothing. You don't see because you already decided that he isn't.
Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
But you don't wish to believe. If you actually wished to believe you would seek out God with an open mind. But since your mind is not open you will see nothing, but then complain about seeing nothing. You don't see because you already decided that he isn't.
You asked them did you? I suggest the vast majority believe mainly because it's a social and cultural norm they identify with - and they naturally explain events in their lives in terms of their belief system.Atheists are a tiny minority. If the data is correct, 7% of the world, so 93% believe in something. They believe because the spirit realm can be experienced.
Nope. From childhood, I've been keen to have magical or supernatural experiences, and open to the supposed spiritual wonders that I was told about. It just never happened; the most transcendent experiences I had were from psychedelics in my late teens. So, no, I haven't shut off anything, I simply never came to believe in any of those stories - and now I think I understand, in general terms, why.As an atheist you have effectively shut off seeing where God is at work.
I disagree. Free will is the capacity to make conscious uncoerced and unconstrained choices according to your personal needs, wants, desires, etc., whatever the variety and range of those needs, wants, and desires. Everyone is different in their capacities for feelings and emotions. Having a greater capacity for hate and anger doesn't give you more truly free will, nor does having a lesser capacity for hate and anger reduce your free will.Free will is not truly free if you restrict what someone feels. People have to be completely free to feel and experience everything.
In my view, to choose in that way requires belief; I can't choose what I don't believe, and I can't choose to believe, I believe something when I'm convinced of it.Once we choose God then he sends the Holy Spirit that grows us to be more loving and kind.
I disagree that humans reflect what we would expect from evolutionary heritage.
Those types of beliefs have evolutionary explanations, and their development and refinement over time correlates well with changes in culture, social organization, and lifestyle.The vast majority recognize that there is a spirit world and most believe in a God. Even if the belief goes no further it is there, no matter what country you go to and this was in place before countries had contact with each other. When explorers landed they would find established religion.
Because that's a misunderstanding; 'survival of the fittest' is a crude slogan and widely misinterpreted. Cooperation is widespread among living things and altruism is common in social creatures - because they provide a selective advantage. Competition and cooperation are the yin & yang of evolution. For example, meerkats have common creches where all pups get the same attention from the babysitters, hive insects are the paragons of selfless cooperation; altruism and reciprocal altruism are seen beyond just apes and monkeys - many other species, even rats show altruism.Why would we go out of our way to help when it is of no gain to ourselves? For example raising money for charities, nursing the old and dying, people going overseas to help countries in Africa drill for water. How does helping the weak and infirm show evolution when evolution is about survival of the fittest?
Meh. I guess it's unfair to ask you to try and step outside your worldview, even briefly.At the end the signs that were given will be made clear. Each sign that was shown but chosen to be ignored, waved away or rejected. Those who received little will likewise be judged little. God alone knows what someones heart feels. Even if that person did not directly hear, they will be judged on whatever light they did receive.
Which god? There are thousands - and why a god, why not some other superstitious or supernatural belief?Disbelief is a choice in the factor of having an open or closed mind. When the mind is closed it won't even hear or look at any other possibility. So the first step would be an open mind to the possibility of God.
Did He tell you that? Are all those biblical descriptions of him changing his mind mistaken?Because God is unchanging in what he thinks.
But which of the two are you using as the meaning of "miracle"?
That suggests that we might eventually become the equals of God, once we have learned the same things that he knows.
@Kylie was specifically referring to childbirth. Follow the exchanges between you both back a few posts. You described childbirth as miraculous; Kylie is saying it is not miraculous if you mean it is "something that could not have happened without divine intervention".Why do you think that "something that could not have happened without divine intervention" is not miraculous? This sounds miraculous to me.
@Kylie was specifically referring to childbirth. Follow the exchanges between you both back a few posts. You described childbirth as miraculous; Kylie is saying it is not miraculous if you mean it is "something that could not have happened without divine intervention".
Now, as to the more 'ordinary' meaning of miraculous, something that is unlikely, certainly fortuitous and generally most welcome, I recall a couple of Church of Scotland ministers placing Biblical miracles into this category. For example, the feeding of the five thousand was presented as Jesus encouraging everyone to share whatever food they had with them, but were selfishly concealing, with their neighbours. He set the ball rolling, as it were, with the two fishes and five loaves. That explanation fits well with me and delivers a much more important lesson than would a divine miracle. After all, I can never hope to perform a divine miracle, but I can strive to be less selfish and do more to help my neighbour.
Either or. It doesn't matter to me.
Why do you think that "something that could not have happened without divine intervention" is not miraculous? This sounds miraculous to me.
Where did I say that such an event would not count as miraculous?
I've since lost track of your position through your endless open ended questions (and my apologies if I've misinterpreted or misunderstood your questions as well). If you have an argument, you should make it. If you have an idea, express it. But asking me endless questions without getting to the point isn't helping whatever ideas you're trying to express.
Notice how ophiolite expands on his questions and ideas, providing substance for me to work with.
My point was that if God is bound by logic and also didn't create logic (as you calimed in posts 79 and 105), then God can't do anything truly miraculous (as in the real miracles, not like the everyday miracles like childbirth that don't need God to step in and take some action).
And if God can't do miracles, then he couldn't have created the universe.
I've often thought that this is a possible explanation - although it's speculative. It's the same story as 'Stone Soup'.... I recall a couple of Church of Scotland ministers placing Biblical miracles into this category. For example, the feeding of the five thousand was presented as Jesus encouraging everyone to share whatever food they had with them, but were selfishly concealing, with their neighbours. He set the ball rolling, as it were, with the two fishes and five loaves. That explanation fits well with me and delivers a much more important lesson than would a divine miracle. After all, I can never hope to perform a divine miracle, but I can strive to be less selfish and do more to help my neighbour.
We were touching on this topic elsewhere a bit. My thought is that even miracles could be logical, but rather we consider them miracles due to a lack of familiarity with the rules of logic.
In my other post, I'll just summarize it, I noted how our school of thought on logic have evolved over time. Classical logic, aristotelian logic, stoic logic, modern logic etc.
Similar to empirical methods, we figure science and logic out as we go.
And so while I would think that modern science and logic would demonstrate that some miracles likely didn't occur, such as Jesus making 5,000 fish materialize out of thin air, I simultaneously wouldn't say that God couldn't perform miracles, given that things we consider miracles today, could be perfectly logical to a being with an eternally and fully developed logic.
Which god? There are thousands - and why a god, why not some other superstitious or supernatural belief?
As a youth, I opened my mind to the possibility of the magical and supernatural and found nothing of substance. All I saw was fine words, wishful thinking, social pressure, and a desperate desire to believe.
You've been asked multiple times if you could choose to believe in a different god (let's say Thor), but you have avoided answering. Please answer the question, then explain your answer.
Did He tell you that? Are all those biblical descriptions of him changing his mind mistaken?
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