Creationist Resources?

[trophy33]

So all the higher taxa of animals could not escape the valley? They do now Why could they not then?

did God lock all teh unrepentant in their rooms so that when the floods came- they could not escape to higher ground so that all the locals ended up dying?? Is that what you are trying to say?

Or was it Gods intent to trick them by having Noah spend 120 years building an ark instead ojust packing up and moving to higher ground!

You are trying to read the story in a purely technical sense (how to save dinosaurs, how to save trilobits... well, they did not make it anyway), instead of trying to understand the point - people were corrupted, the civilization was destroyed and Noah and animals living with people (for example cows) were saved so that the a new civilization could be built again.

 

[nolidad]

You are trying to read the story in a purely technical sense (how to save dinosaurs, how to save trilobits... well, they did not make it anyway), instead of trying to understand the point - people were corrupted, the civilization was destroyed and Noah and animals living with people (for example cows) were saved so that the a new civilization could be built again.

So the Ark and the 120 years was all just useless fluff? Isn't it funny that in Gods Inspired Word, He talks about the corruption of all people,

Genesis 6:

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

So that you are willing to buy!

But then when it comes to how he is going to destroy all (not just some) flesh from the face of the land (you are sure He meant just the Mesopotamian Valley)

13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

14 Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.

So all this below and chapter 7,8,9,10,and 11 are all just myth, fable or intense imagination? After all the genealogies are a continuous narrative and the genealogies show how the gentile nations were settled! Is that what you are trying to say?

15 And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.

16 A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.

17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.

19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.

20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.

21 And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.

22 Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.

 

[nolidad]

Great!


And with all your books about the culture and linguistics of biblical times you have, you come up with this...?

Yep isn't it amazing! Without any comparative language in the narrative, with history of Israel accepting it as true, with Jesus accepting it as true and with global geology giving very compelling evidence it is true- I think I am standing on firm ground.

What is the evidence you present that this is just an allegory? The over 200 differing ark accounts from around the world and throughout history? After centuries of accepting it as true the church and Israel both left it as true?

Once again, a normal usual reading of the narrative says the whole world- No matter whether Noah understood or not. BTW if you accept the fact that all the highest mountains were covered by at least 21.5 feet of water!

Gen. 7:
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

so once the mountains surrounding the mesopotamian valley were covered- they would spill over elsewhere! Unless of courser God couldn't stop Noah from writing such an intentional falsehood! After all Noah didn't have sonar or even old fashioned rope fathom measures. So either He got that from God or.......?

 

[trophy33]

Yep isn't it amazing! Without any comparative language in the narrative, with history of Israel accepting it as true, with Jesus accepting it as true and with global geology giving very compelling evidence it is true- I think I am standing on firm ground.

And I think I know what kind of books you have, that the authors are from one specific camp. Of course, when we have books and other sources just from one viewpoint, we think our position is certain.

What is the evidence you present that this is just an allegory?

If I remember correctly, I did not state the the story of Flood is allegory.

I only stated that you read it wrong - from the planetary perspective, not understanding that it was local.
You are reading the text and expressions they used and, being a 21st century man, you think it means what you mean by those expressions. But its just a misunderstanding of their language.

 

[trophy33]

So the Ark and the 120 years was all just useless fluff?

No, it was just useful in a way you do not like.

Isn't it funny that in Gods Inspired Word, He talks about the corruption of all people

Its probable (because all nations have some kind of a flood story), that all people, or at least majority of them, were located in the area we are talking about.

The area was flooded (and became the Persian gulf) about 12,000 years ago. Which correlates well with the history of other nations and with the biblical location of Eden.

 

[nolidad]

And I think I know what kind of books you have, that the authors are from one specific camp. Of course, when we have books and other sources just from one viewpoint, we think our position is certain.


If I remember correctly, I did not state the the story of Flood is allegory.

I only stated that you read it wrong - from the planetary perspective, not understanding that it was local.
You are reading the text and expressions they used and, being a 21st century man, you think it means what you mean by those expressions. But its just a misunderstanding of their language.

Well you may think but you would be wrong! When I have a need to understand- I look at both sides and try to discern who has the best biblical argument.

but you do think the flood is allegory! Because it did not cover the whole heaven, nor the highest mountains by 21.5 feet, nor did you believe it killed all flesh on the face of the WHOLE earth under the WHOLE heaven. Without any philosophical arguments to the otherwise a usual reading would cause the reader to say- the whole earth

 

[nolidad]

No, it was just useful in a way you do not like.


Its probable (because all nations have some kind of a flood story), that all people, or at least majority of them, were located in the area we are talking about.

The area was flooded (and became the Persian gulf) about 12,000 years ago. Which correlates well with the history of other nations and with the biblical location of Eden.

You build a boat because you need a boat! They floated for a year! HArd to stay in one area if the mountains were under 21.5 feet of water. HArd to keep a flood contained ewither!

The peoples may well have been there. But they would not have a flood mythology pre-flood. And they supposedly all died!

Noi the more logical, scientific and biblical answer is that after the tower of Babel as peoples left and formed the gentile nations that they corrupted the story.

Just like I believe the mythologies of the gods and demi-gods are corruptions fo teh genesis 6 account where the angels left heaven and had sex with human women and produced the mighty men of old!

 

[trophy33]

HArd to stay in one area if the mountains were under 21.5 feet of water. HArd to keep a flood contained ewither!

Yes, hard. Thats why you should ask yourself, how is it possible that Noah landed in the same region (mount Ararat) in which he began (middle East). Not on the other side of the planet.

Because the flood was local.

 

[trophy33]

Well you may think but you would be wrong! When I have a need to understand- I look at both sides and try to discern who has the best biblical argument.

but you do think the flood is allegory! Because it did not cover the whole heaven, nor the highest mountains by 21.5 feet, nor did you believe it killed all flesh on the face of the WHOLE earth under the WHOLE heaven. Without any philosophical arguments to the otherwise a usual reading would cause the reader to say- the whole earth

I think you misunderstand what I am saying. I do not say the story of the Flood is allegory.

I say that their vocabulary was pre-scientific. When they said "the whole world", it did not mean the whole world technically, but the whole world known to them - Mesopotamia.

I say that we need to understand their context and stop putting our modern planetary context into the story. Their "all" is not our "all".

 

[nolidad]

Yes, hard. Thats why you should ask yourself, how is it possible that Noah landed in the same region (mount Ararat) in which he began (middle East). Not on the other side of the planet.

Because the flood was local.

Well I am glad you were there and watched the movement of the Ark to inform us!

Maybe you should ask yourself, if the waters covered the highest mountains by 21.5 feet, how could the flood be contained to just the Mesopotamian Valley??

 

[nolidad]

I think you misunderstand what I am saying. I do not say the story of the Flood is allegory.

I say that their vocabulary was pre-scientific. When they said "the whole world", it did not mean the whole world technically, but the whole world known to them - Mesopotamia.

I say that we need to understand their context and stop putting our modern planetary context into the story. Their "all" is not our "all".

Once again the Christian world owes you a debt of gratitude for being there!

See I don't put our context.but God's context! Remember it was God who told Noah what He was going to do!

I guess God broke His covenant He made with Noah, the animals and teh earth many times!

8 And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying,

9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;

10 And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.

11 And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.

12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:

13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.

14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:

15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.

16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

17 And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.

There have been many many massive regional floods that have destroyed much human and animal life!

 

[nolidad]

Yes, hard. Thats why you should ask yourself, how is it possible that Noah landed in the same region (mount Ararat) in which he began (middle East). Not on the other side of the planet.

Because the flood was local.

Did you ever hear of a local flood (except this one) where a massive storm system stayed in the same area for forty days and night?

Did you ever hear of a flood where people and animals did not flee to safer ground?

How did Noah know all flesh died? There was no one to tell him!

Once again how could the waters stay in a valley when it topped the mountains by 21.5 feet? Also given that the Mesopotamian area is a valley and not bowl- it would have run to the southern edge where there were no mountains and keep flowing out!

 

[trophy33]

Did you ever hear of a local flood (except this one) where a massive storm system stayed in the same area for forty days and night?

Do you realize that 40, 7, 12 etc are symbolic numbers for Jews, representing fullness?

How did Noah know all flesh died? There was no one to tell him!

All flesh in his area died. All men and all local animals.

Once again how could the waters stay in a valley when it topped the mountains by 21.5 feet? Also given that the Mesopotamian area is a valley and not bowl- it would have run to the southern edge where there were no mountains and keep flowing out!

Scientific details are not the point of the story. You are still reading it wrongly, you are reading it technically.
Read it as it was described by 5 years old child, not knowing about other continents, not even about other lands far away, not being present or witness, just writing an old story it heard from grandpa.

 

[trophy33]

Once again the Christian world owes you a debt of gratitude for being there!

See I don't put our context.but God's context! Remember it was God who told Noah what He was going to do!

 

[trophy33]

Well I am glad you were there and watched the movement of the Ark to inform us!

You do not have to watch it. Its written in the text - it landed on the Ararat mountain.

Maybe you should ask yourself, if the waters covered the highest mountains by 21.5 feet, how could the flood be contained to just the Mesopotamian Valley??

The word for mountain can be translated as hill, too. Not sure what you have a problem with.

 

[nolidad]

Do you realize that 40, 7, 12 etc are symbolic numbers for Jews, representing fullness?


All flesh in his area died. All men and all local animals.


Scientific details are not the point of the story. You are still reading it wrongly, you are reading it technically.
Read it as it was described by 5 years old child, not knowing about other continents, not even about other lands far away, not being present or witness, just writing an old story it heard from grandpa.

So now 40 days and nights is symbolic as well? How about 150 which is the number of days the waters rose!

So none of the animals followed their instincts? No people just bugged out and sought higher ground? Where they locked in their rooms and dens? How do you know none survived?

 

[nolidad]

Well when I have an hour free I will watch the video. Other wise I have three books on culture.

 

[nolidad]

You do not have to watch it. Its written in the text - it landed on the Ararat mountain.

The word for mountain can be translated as hill, too. Not sure what you have a problem with.

Actually it landed on the mountains of ararat the region, not a specified mountain. But maybe that is me putting too much value in the written words again!

Gen. 8: 4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.

How can the waters top a valley that is only bounded by hills on two sides? How could the water top the mountains on both sides to 21.5 feet when it had 2 wide open ends? Water always finds the easiest path to take.

I have no problem- but you definitely do.

Try an experiment. 1. Find some dirt and make a valley! Have it be a valley surrounded on 3 sides by hills!

(Valleys usually have 2 open sides, but let us have a 3 sided for the experiment) Now name your valley Mesopotamia.

2. have two hoses with sprinkler heads! Bury one shallowly under the surface of the valley8 and the other hold over the valley.

3. Open the water full force on both hoses!

4. See how long it takes for your valley to be filled so that the water tops your hills lets say just 2 inches consistently for a long time!

Your interpretation of the NOahic Flood just doesn't cut it when we try to try it in scale!

And I do look at the Flood History as a 5 year old! When grandpa tells me that the waters covered the whole facre of the earth under all of the heavens, I go "grandpa, every place their is sky, the water flooded the land? Grandpa says YUP that is what it says!"

 

[trophy33]

So now 40 days and nights is symbolic as well? How about 150 which is the number of days the waters rose!

Does not it seem interesting to you, that so many events, genealogies, years etc were such nice numbers like 7, 12, 40, 70, 120...? What a coincidence, right?

Or, maybe, just maybe, Jews were not scientifically minded, but wanted to communicate the message in another way, in a Jewish way

 

[nolidad]

Does not it seem interesting to you, that so many events, genealogies, years etc were such nice numbers like 7, 12, 40, 70, 120...? What a coincidence, right?

Or, maybe, just maybe, Jews were not scientifically minded, but wanted to communicate the message in another way, in a Jewish way

Ah the secret number codes.

Well I did a class on biblical numerology.
6=man
7=com[letion
40=judgment
etc.etc.

These were because of how God arranged things and not some made up stories by the Jews or early church!