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Creationist Philosophy

lucaspa

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I haven't concluded much of anything with evolution period, only that nothing had room to evolve until after everything turned dark because Eden was perfect along with everything in it, including micro-organisms.
That whole thing is unBiblical. First, in Genesis 1 creation is "very good", not perfect. Nothing is said in Genesis 2 about Eden being perfect. That is something people have read into it. In fact, since the serpent was there, Eden could not have been "perfect".

Second, the punishments for Adam and Eve's disobedience is given in Genesis 3. Those punishments are very specific. "Everything turned dark" is inaccurate. Very few things happened, and nothing "turned dark". For someone so concerned about the Bible, you seem to be ignoring the Bible and making it up as you go along.

Third, "microevolution" does not refer to microorganisms. It refers to changes within a population. The changing proportion of light and dark colored peppered moths in England with changing levels of pollution are an example of microevolution.

Macroevolution is speciation (formation of a new species) and higher taxa (groups of species). As it turns out, microevolution produces macroevolution. This has been shown both in the lab and the wild many times in real time. It is also demonstrated in the fossil record.

Recombination, mutations, ect,, nothing in evolution is truly random, just as cause and effect is not random. In a perfect world, these things simply do not exist.
In evolution, "random" has a specific meaning here: the variations are random with respect to the needs of the individual or the population. In a climate growing warmer, just as many deer will be born with longer fur than shorter fur. IOW, we don't see the majority of variations being favorable for the individual or the population, nor do we see the majority being unfavorable.

Now, selection is nonrandom. In fact, it is pure determinism.

Microorganisms, along with plants, have no brains or even instinct. They are practically there in spite of themselves thriving on stimulus, and God is not vain. This reinforces why micro-organisms are simply here to support life, just as the ozone layer and sunshine as I stated.
:confused: Yersinia pestis is here to "support life"? That is a micro-organism and it causes Bubonic Plague! There are many other examples.

Micro-organisms are life. Most of them are independent of mult-cellular organisms. For instance, we all have the bacteria Step aureus growing on our skin. It is indifferent to us and we are indifferent to it. Or consider the micro-organisms in the hot springs in Yellowstone. They don't support any multicellular life because the hot springs are too hot for any life except these thermophiles.

As it happens, natural selection is also unintelligent. But it produces design. It is very good at doing that. The proof is that humans turn to it when the design problem is too hard for us. :)
 
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Sum1sGruj

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That whole thing is unBiblical. First, in Genesis 1 creation is "very good", not perfect. Nothing is said in Genesis 2 about Eden being perfect. That is something people have read into it. In fact, since the serpent was there, Eden could not have been "perfect".

Did you ever think that this play of semantics is nether here nor there? God saw that it was good. What does that amount to? Organisms dying and suffering through the ages, and only the modern human is worthy of attention?
TE is unbiblical. You know why? Because there is not one verse out of the entirety of the Bible that supports the idea even remotely. In fact, there are verses that flat out tell you that scientific oppositions are wrong.
One would think that if God made life in such an elegant and systematic way, there would be at least a scrap of an idea pointing toward it. Saying the Bible isn't a science book is a non-answer.

Second, the punishments for Adam and Eve's disobedience is given in Genesis 3. Those punishments are very specific. "Everything turned dark" is inaccurate. Very few things happened, and nothing "turned dark". For someone so concerned about the Bible, you seem to be ignoring the Bible and making it up as you go along.
What exactly does this have to do with anything? They became enlightened on good and evil. God gave them these things that sin induces rather then them dying, which is what he stated beforehand.
Context. I know it requires time and thought, but it is effective in understanding.

Third, "microevolution" does not refer to microorganisms. It refers to changes within a population. The changing proportion of light and dark colored peppered moths in England with changing levels of pollution are an example of microevolution.

Macroevolution is speciation (formation of a new species) and higher taxa (groups of species). As it turns out, microevolution produces macroevolution. This has been shown both in the lab and the wild many times in real time. It is also demonstrated in the fossil record.
Did i ever imply that? No, I implied that it has only been noticed in micro-organisms. Sorry if I didn't spell it out.
Microevolution has only largely been seen in microorganisms. Since we have not actually seen macro-evolution, we cannot conclude that it even fits into ToE at all. So the terms are loosely thrown around by people who believe in evolution whole-heartily.

In evolution, "random" has a specific meaning here: the variations are random with respect to the needs of the individual or the population. In a climate growing warmer, just as many deer will be born with longer fur than shorter fur. IOW, we don't see the majority of variations being favorable for the individual or the population, nor do we see the majority being unfavorable.

Now, selection is nonrandom. In fact, it is pure determinism.
Everything is nonrandom in a Deistic universe. Everything boils down to cause and effect. We do not have free will in this respect. Everything we do is just the natural coursing of the universe. This puts the entire construction of the Bible at risk.
I can hammer nails into TE all day.

:confused: Yersinia pestis is here to "support life"? That is a micro-organism and it causes Bubonic Plague! There are many other examples.
Sin. The plague was not just a result of dominance, nor any other form of parasites. It is caused by uncleanliness. God's will? No. Our transgressions? Yes.
God gave His creatures the ability to adapt. Parasites just outdid our ability to adhere to what we should have been doing. Why should that amount to our common ancestor being a microscopic jelly at the bottom of an ocean?

Micro-organisms are life. Most of them are independent of mult-cellular organisms. For instance, we all have the bacteria Step aureus growing on our skin. It is indifferent to us and we are indifferent to it. Or consider the micro-organisms in the hot springs in Yellowstone. They don't support any multicellular life because the hot springs are too hot for any life except these thermophiles.
Thermophiles give beauty to hot springs. God did, after all, have a knack for such things, given the stars and the universe.
The bacteria on our skin obviously is there for a reason. Otherwise, it wouldn't be there. It also can produce minor infection. You will notice whenever you get a shot, an alcohol pad is swiped. This is because of that and other bacteria as well.
Again, because we didn't adhere to God's will, these things become problems. Notice that the Levites never fell victim to illness with the harsh Old Covenant. They made strides to rid of it, and alas, it was effective.
Clearly, liberalism doesn't always equate to righteousness.

As it happens, natural selection is also unintelligent. But it produces design. It is very good at doing that. The proof is that humans turn to it when the design problem is too hard for us. :)
The odds of life developing naturally are less then 0.01% over every 4 billion years. Such precision an unintelligent thing has, right?
How is it that God did it.,
but not the way He said it? At the bottom of logic, TE is no more likely then anything else.
Rub it off on ambiogenesis and you will have sufficiently proved that mixing evolution into Abrahamic theology is just a loose, convenient way to exclude critical thinking.

Think about it., what in science cannot be countered? In what way does science show anything to be more then a Desitic account on the history of life and matter?
 
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Notedstrangeperson

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Sum1sGruj said:
Sin is what causes deformities. If, from the beginning, man did not sin, there would be none of that. This is why the Old Covenant was harsh. Casting the ill out of society saved more lives and stopped more suffering from coming about, and it was sin that cause illness to begin with.
Sum1sGru said:
confused.gif
Yersinia pestis is here to "support life"? That is a micro-organism and it causes Bubonic Plague! There are many other examples.
Sin. The plague was not just a result of dominance, nor any other form of parasites. It is caused by uncleanliness. God's will? No. Our transgressions? Yes.

I see this argument used a lot by Creationists. It's not a particularly good argument either. The idea that everything painful and unpleasant in the world is caused by human sin is Karma, which isn't a Christian ideal. Indeed the Bible says the opposite (my emphasis) -
That you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

- Matthew 5:45 (NIV)​

As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.
- John 9:1-3 (NIV)​
God treats both the good and the bad equally - during our time on Earth anyway. This sort of 'karmic Christianity' Creationists seem to promote doesn't really belong in our religion. You wrote that with theistic evolution and deism ...

Sum1sGruj said:
Everything boils down to cause and effect. We do not have free will in this respect. Everything we do is just the natural coursing of the universe. This puts the entire construction of the Bible at risk.

But this is exactly what karma does.
 
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Sum1sGruj

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I see this argument used a lot by Creationists. It's not a particularly good argument either. The idea that everything painful and unpleasant in the world is caused by human sin is Karma, which isn't a Christian ideal. Indeed the Bible says the opposite (my emphasis)God treats both the good and the bad equally - during our time on Earth anyway. This sort of 'karmic Christianity' Creationists seem to promote doesn't really belong in our religion. You wrote that with theistic evolution and deism

Let me state this before speaking on karma:

One thing I see TE's throw up a lot is this idea that God controls everything and somehow that is supposed to defend it's post.
Well, we see cause and effect happening everywhere in existence. So what exactly is God controlling?
Here's an analogy., if I were to stack dominoes in a line, and tip the one at the end over, what practicality do I have in guiding these dominoes when they are falling by themselves anyways?

TE requires cause and effect, and therefore one must assume that all God has done is initiate a Big Bang, and then billions of years later tended to the modern human.
Where then do we have separate souls? Does this not include that we are, along with existence, one unified body? A creation within a creation but all of the same?
TE must conclude that God gave us souls thereafter and yet we do not have free will, as we are still products of cause and effect and subject to it.
TE cannot believe in free will, but rather predestination. The only way you can say otherwise is if the universe, including us, is one willing soul and that cannot be possible because we are separate souls.
You may have to marinate on that for a second, because I know I did when I conceived it lol.

The further you delve into the gears and mechanics beneath TE, the more elusive it becomes to plausibility. Granted, it has a nice, promising surface, but it doesn't seem to be much more then that in my own opinion.
But I can get more into all that later.

Getting back to karma-
Karma is a mathematical junction. It doesn't really require a divine influence. That is why the Bible is so firm on the idea of sin, because it is not God delivering karma, it is our own undoings.
 
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Notedstrangeperson

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Sum1sGuj said:
Well, we see cause and effect happening everywhere in existence. So what exactly is God controlling?
Here's an analogy., if I were to stack dominoes in a line, and tip the one at the end over, what practicality do I have in guiding these dominoes when they are falling by themselves anyways?

I wasn't really arguing about evolution versus creationism, I was arguing against the idea that all the painful things in the world are caused by human sin. This isn't so - natural disasters, diseases, genetic disorders have nothing to do with sin at all.

I've seen creationists argue that the world was completely perfect before the Fall and that there was no suffering whatsoever, but this fails to make a distinction between things that are unpleasant to us and things that are genuinely wrong. Not everything bad in the world is a result of human sin.

Sum1sGunj said:
Karma is a mathematical junction. It doesn't really require a divine influence. That is why the Bible is so firm on the idea of sin, because it is not God delivering karma, it is our own undoings.

That's true, but as I said earlier karma is not a part of christianity. It belong to Buddhism and Hinduism, based on their ideas of reincarnation.
 
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Sum1sGruj

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I wasn't really arguing about evolution versus creationism, I was arguing against the idea that all the painful things in the world are caused by human sin. This isn't so - natural disasters, diseases, genetic disorders have nothing to do with sin at all.

Much of it can be directly attributed to sin nonetheless. To delve deeper would require deeper explanation:

Genesis 2:8
Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden
.

From this, we can see that Eden is Earth, and the Garden was placed within it. This was a special place, bearing not only God's masterwork of man but the Trees of Knowledge and Life. It's safe to say it was a holy place, different form the rest of the world. This means that everything of the Garden was pure. There was no sin to tilt karma.
Outside of the Garden, however, everything is sinful. Animals of all sorts were already subject to unforgiving nature.
One must think of it this way, because animals are just different from us. Unless God purposefully makes them perfect in will, they are indifferent to good and evil.
Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge, and that is when the Adversary officially fell from grace:

Genesis 3:14
So the LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, “Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.

This is important because he had been able to enter the Garden pre-deception.
When sin had reached Adam and Eve, they were kicked out of the Garden for it, as well as to keep them away from the Tree of Life.
Because of sin, God spelled out what would become of them not being in grace, as our sinful nature cannot be balanced without incident.
Because we fail miserably, the miserable things we endure are there. That is why, like I said, the Old Covenant was harsh. It stopped a lot of causes form sin from coming about.
There was nothing bad about a tsunami or hurricane on the other side of Eden, because it wasn't consequential to us anyways.

That's true, but as I said earlier karma is not a part of christianity. It belong to Buddhism and Hinduism, based on their ideas of reincarnation.

But that poses a problem in the plausibility of TE, because it relies on an idea that God set an initial cause and everything was the effect.
And since karma is a mathematical junction in the idea of cause and effect, TE directly correlates it into it's theology.
 
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Notedstrangeperson

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Sum1sGunj said:
notedstrangeperson said:
I was arguing against the idea that all the painful things in the world are caused by human sin. This isn't so - natural disasters, diseases, genetic disorders have nothing to do with sin at all.
Much of it can be directly attributed to sin nonetheless.
No, not really. Human sin isn't responsible for the weather, or genetic disorders or diseases. I think the quotes I gave earlier supports this.

Sum1sGunj said:
And since karma is a mathematical junction in the idea of cause and effect, TE directly correlates it into it's theology.
Karma was original used to explain why some people had better lives than others - why some people were born into rich, healthy families and others were born sick and into poverty - and they explained it by saying unfortunate people had bad karma from previous lives. So unless you're confusing evolution with reincarnation I don't see what TE has to do with karma.

---------------
I said, Christianity doesn't really have anything to do with karma. Come to think about it it doesn't even have anything to do with Creationism either - but somehow it seems to have wriggled itself in there.

Sorry about all the nagging :p but one of the most damaging and incorrect assumptions about medical conditions / natural disasters / diseases is that they are due to some kind of flaw in our morality. It's a silly and primitive assumption and it doesn't belong in our religion.
 
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Assyrian

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Much of it can be directly attributed to sin nonetheless. To delve deeper would require deeper explanation:

Genesis 2:8
Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden
.

From this, we can see that Eden is Earth,
Typo? Otherwise how can Eden be the earth, but be different from the rest off the world? Did you mean Eden is on the Earth?

and the Garden was placed within it. This was a special place, bearing not only God's masterwork of man but the Trees of Knowledge and Life. It's safe to say it was a holy place, different form the rest of the world. This means that everything of the Garden was pure. There was no sin to tilt karma.
Outside of the Garden, however, everything is sinful. Animals of all sorts were already subject to unforgiving nature.
How was everything sinful outside the garden if Rom 5:12 NET sin entered the world through one man?

One must think of it this way, because animals are just different from us. Unless God purposefully makes them perfect in will, they are indifferent to good and evil.
So how can they be sinful?

Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge, and that is when the Adversary officially fell from grace:

Genesis 3:14
So the LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, “Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.

This is important because he had been able to enter the Garden pre-deception.
Presumably when God brought him to Adam and Adam called him 'Snake'.

When sin had reached Adam and Eve, they were kicked out of the Garden for it, as well as to keep them away from the Tree of Life.
Because of sin, God spelled out what would become of them not being in grace, as our sinful nature cannot be balanced without incident.
God didn't mention anything about balance.

Because we fail miserably, the miserable things we endure are there. That is why, like I said, the Old Covenant was harsh. It stopped a lot of causes form sin from coming about.
There was nothing bad about a tsunami or hurricane on the other side of Eden, because it wasn't consequential to us anyways.
So no reason evolution can't have been going on out there?

But that poses a problem in the plausibility of TE, because it relies on an idea that God set an initial cause and everything was the effect.
No that sounds more like your deistic version, not TE.

And since karma is a mathematical junction in the idea of cause and effect, TE directly correlates it into it's theology.
Karma goes beyond direct cause and effect. You end up with an STD as a consequence of sleeping around. But karma says that when you pass that STD on to your faithful wife, she is being punished for some other sin she committed, and when you baby boy is born infected with your STD, that is the result of either sin he committed in an earlier life or he is being punished for your sin. Neither of these are Christian teachings and they certainly aren't TE.
 
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Assyrian

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I was thinking of that. And the man born blind: "whose sin was it the man or his parents?" It is much too easy, almost an occupation hazard, for religious people like the disciples and the pharisees simply to blame the poor and the sick, instead of showing compassion.

Love the sig :)
 
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shernren

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Let me state this before speaking on karma:

One thing I see TE's throw up a lot is this idea that God controls everything and somehow that is supposed to defend it's post.
Well, we see cause and effect happening everywhere in existence. So what exactly is God controlling?
Here's an analogy., if I were to stack dominoes in a line, and tip the one at the end over, what practicality do I have in guiding these dominoes when they are falling by themselves anyways?

I see a pigeon eating breadcrumbs. Is it a miracle?
 
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