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Creationism

Silly Uncle Wayne

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I am happy to try. If you could tell me a claim or a prediction made by Creationists (that isn't' held by evolutionary scientists) that could be falsified if wrong, it will help me narrow down an example that relates more directly to your beliefs.

For example, if a tyrannosaurus fossil was found below or above the Cretaceous layer, that would be evidence which might falsify Evolutionary theory.

But earlier you said:
No, I mean to say Creationism. It is a theological position--not a scientific one. I can supply evidence for my claim if you are interested.

Now you are asking me to provide evidence?

The fact that you go straight to evolution and dinosaur fossils suggests that you are still mixing up Young-Earth Creationism and Creationism.
 
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BobRyan

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The fact that you go straight to evolution and dinosaur fossils suggests that you are still mixing up Young-Earth Creationism and Creationism.

Its a fair question though - since the age of the Earth in the Bible - via creationism's literal reading of the text does not match the stories people tell about the age of Dinosaurs. And everyone can see that.

The not-expected soft tissue finds in Dinosaurs -- Just "HOW unexpected"?

https://www.history.com/news/scient...entists find soft tissue materials preserved

Unexpected "enough" so that Mary Schweitzer of North Carolina State University who found collagen fibers in the fossilized leg bone of a Tyrannosaurus rex in 2005 -- was viciously attacked by her colleges and fellow "believer" scientists at the time.

=========================

"Scientists have estimated that under the most ideal conditions, DNA can theoretically survive for a maximum of one million years. Although a team of researchers recently claimed to have discovered 419 million-year-old genetic material belonging to prehistoric bacteria in the Michigan Basin"

"We have calculated an optimum half-life of DNA to be about 500 years (give or take a few decades). What this means is that x grams of fresh DNA will degrade to x/2 grams after 500 years." so then 10g of pure DNA would not last 10,000 years.
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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Its a fair question though - since the age of the Earth in the Bible - via creationism's literal reading of the text

Well firstly, not all creationists read the text literally. There are plenty that read it as an allegory.

And even among those who don't see it as allegory, there isn't all that much issue with the subject. See John Lennox's Seven Days that Divide the World for example. or John Walton's the Lost World of Genesis 1.

does not match the stories people tell about the age of Dinosaurs. And everyone can see that....

This is very interesting but not of much relevance after all only Young Earth Creationists have an issue with the age of the Earth being less than 10,000 years old. The rest of the Creationists are quite content with a million years or more.
 
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Caliban

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But earlier you said:


Now you are asking me to provide evidence?

The fact that you go straight to evolution and dinosaur fossils suggests that you are still mixing up Young-Earth Creationism and Creationism.
Fine, Creationists view the age of the earth differently. My question stands. What could prove your hypothesis wrong?
I have you an example of something that could invalidate my claim.
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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Fine, Creationists view the age of the earth differently. My question stands. What could prove your hypothesis wrong?
I have you an example of something that could invalidate my claim.
What claim? Does your claim need invalidating?

Because you got distracted, I'm losing track of what it is you are trying to say.
 
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BobRyan

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Well firstly, not all creationists read the text literally. There are plenty that read it as an allegory.

True. But not because of the text.. Rather in spite of the text to the contrary. A point that James Barr points out regarding the scholars of Hebrew and OT studies in all world-class Universities. Where he says that when it comes to "the kind of text" that it is -- they recognize that it is given as a historic account and not as allegory. They don't accept the account as factual but they admit it is written as historic account .. that is "the kind of literature that it is".


This is very interesting but not of much relevance after all only Young Earth Creationists have an issue with the age of the Earth being less than 10,000 years old. The rest of the Creationists are quite content with a million years or more.

Then the rest of "inconvenient facts" just listed when it comes to "observations in nature" that they must ignore to hold to their long-ages views for life on Earth. And as you point out - the ones that have no problem at all accepting the facts list in my post - are the Creationists (does not need to be young-earth) who see that life on Earth has only been here for less than 10,000 years which fits the data I reference in my post.

the idea that such data "is not much of an issue" makes no sense -- since it would only be "not much of an issue" to the young earth creationists. It presents not obstacle to their view on origins at all.
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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Cool, are you able to steel man the reason for the tissue from an evolutionary perspective. If so please articulate that position so we have a fair starting point.
What happened to the modern scientific discoveries that made Creationism untenable?

I went back over the posts and you still haven't provided any nor any evidence for what you claimed, only questions.
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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True. But not because of the text.. Rather in spite of the text to the contrary. A point that James Barr points out regarding the scholars of Hebrew and OT studies in all world-class Universities. Where he says that when it comes to "the kind of text" that it is -- they recognize that it is given as a historic account and not as allegory. They don't accept the account as factual but they admit it is written as historic account .. that is "the kind of literature that it is".

I agree to a certain extent, but perhaps you should try John Walton's The Lost World of Genesis 1 which treats it as a historic account and still accepts the scientific views of origins.

Then the rest of "inconvenient facts" just listed when it comes to "observations in nature" that they must ignore to hold to their long-ages views for life on Earth. And as you point out - the ones that have no problem at all accepting the facts list in my post - are the Creationists (does not need to be young-earth) who see that life on Earth has only been here for less than 10,000 years which fits the data I reference in my post.

the idea that such data "is not much of an issue" makes no sense -- since it would only be "not much of an issue" to the young earth creationists. It presents not obstacle to their view on origins at all.

I'm not sure what it is you are trying to show.
 
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Caliban

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What happened to the modern scientific discoveries that made Creationism untenable?

I went back over the posts and you still haven't provided any nor any evidence for what you claimed, only questions.
We can move foreward
 
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Caliban

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Its a fair question though - since the age of the Earth in the Bible - via creationism's literal reading of the text does not match the stories people tell about the age of Dinosaurs. And everyone can see that.

The not-expected soft tissue finds in Dinosaurs -- Just "HOW unexpected"?

https://www.history.com/news/scientists-find-soft-tissue-in-75-million-year-old-dinosaur-bones#:~:text=Scientists Find Soft Tissue in 75-Million-Year-Old Dinosaur Bones,British scientists find soft tissue materials preserved

Unexpected "enough" so that Mary Schweitzer of North Carolina State University who found collagen fibers in the fossilized leg bone of a Tyrannosaurus rex in 2005 -- was viciously attacked by her colleges and fellow "believer" scientists at the time.

=========================

"Scientists have estimated that under the most ideal conditions, DNA can theoretically survive for a maximum of one million years. Although a team of researchers recently claimed to have discovered 419 million-year-old genetic material belonging to prehistoric bacteria in the Michigan Basin"

"We have calculated an optimum half-life of DNA to be about 500 years (give or take a few decades). What this means is that x grams of fresh DNA will degrade to x/2 grams after 500 years." so then 10g of pure DNA would not last 10,000 years.
Read this!!!
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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We can move foreward
I'm pretty certain the fact that we can move forward is not a modern scientific discovery. It is difficult to believe that ancient man could only move sideways or backwards.
 
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Caliban

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I agree to a certain extent, but perhaps you should try John Walton's The Lost World of Genesis 1 which treats it as a historic account and still accepts the scientific views of origins.



I'm not sure what it is you are trying to show.
Do you agree with Walton's temple framework? Do you also agree with him that evolution is a fact?
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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Do you agree with Walton's temple framework? Do you also agree with him that evolution is a fact?
I can't remember a temple framework, and no I don't agree with his assertion that Evolution is a fact (certainly in the context he was using it).
 
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Caliban

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I can't remember a temple framework, and no I don't agree with his assertion that Evolution is a fact (certainly in the context he was using it).
His whole book The Lost World of Genesis One is about the temple framework.
 
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Caliban

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I'm pretty certain the fact that we can move forward is not a modern scientific discovery. It is difficult to believe that ancient man could only move sideways or backwards.
The following are findings from scientific and Governmental sources that conclude Creationism is unscientific and merely qualifies as religious teaching:


Wikipedia: Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District

The ruling in this case identified Creationism and ID as religious teaching and not scientific. The ruling was based on testimony on both sides.


This peer reviewed essay describes why the U.S. Government considers ID and Creationism religious instruction. The Department of Education does not permit the teaching of Creationism in schools because they identify it as Religious teaching and not a valid scientific theory.


An article from Scientific American that provides contrary evidence to Creationists claims.
 
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BobRyan

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Will do ... because I want to know how much their story changed from "This" -
Soft tissue found in 75 million-year-old dinosaur bones is a big deal for paleontology

After they had some time to work on that story.

And all they came up with was ...

"The discovery could have a big impact on fossilization science. "Before this discovery, as a palaeontologist, I ‘knew’ that it was not possible for soft tissues to be preserved over geologic timescales, except in exceptionally rare circumstances,"

AND what made them "KNOW" that??


Maidment explains. "What is most exciting for me is the potential this opens up: if we are able to find these tissues in other specimens, and replicate the results, it indicates this type of preservation might even be the ‘norm.'"

==================

"Later, Schweitzer recalls, “I looked at this and I looked at this and I thought, this can’t be. Red blood cells don’t preserve.”
Schweitzer showed the slide to Horner. “When she first found the red-blood-cell-looking structures, I said, Yep, that’s what they look like,” her mentor recalls. He thought it was possible they were red blood cells, but he gave her some advice: “Now see if you can find some evidence to show that that’s not what they are.”

What she found instead was evidence of heme in the bones—additional support for the idea that they were red blood cells. Heme is a part of hemoglobin, the protein that carries oxygen in the blood and gives red blood cells their color. “It got me real curious as to exceptional preservation,” she says. If particles of that one dinosaur were able to hang around for 65 million years, maybe the textbooks were wrong about fossilization.

=============== which was stated this way "at the time" in 2005

""We have several indications that the structures we found are consistent with red blood cells and collagen," explains Sergio Bertazzo, a physical chemist at Imperial College London and co-author of the study published in Nature Communications today. "We were not expecting to find what we found at all. So for us, every single discovery was quite exciting."

casting about them for ways to "explain-away" what is not expected:

"There's one important limitation that's worth noting, however. It's possible that the red blood cells don't belong to the dinosaurs at all, Bertazzo says; contamination from other animals can't be ruled out"

"This isn't the first such discovery; researchers have been able to find soft tissues like this in other fossils. What sets this study apart is the fact that the researchers were able to find these materials despite the fact that the fossils weren't exceptionally well preserved. And before this finding, the researchers note in the study, the oldest un-degraded collagen ever recorded was about 4 million years old."

=======================

DNA Decay Rate Evaluated

"By measuring the length of remaining mitochondrial DNA fragments, the team calculated the half-life of meaningfully sequenceable DNA. DNA half-life for a 242 base pair strand was 521 years, indicating a decay rate about 400 times slower than predicted. The researchers suspect that nuclear DNA decays considerably faster. They also reported that despite the rough correlation to radiocarbon-determined ages, there was a great deal of variation, possibly due to varying conditions during the process of fossilization. Nevertheless, extrapolating their calculations to other possible scenarios, they suggest that soft tissue preserved at –5 ºC might harbor DNA fragments about 30 base pairs long for considerable lengths of time, possibly allowing preservation of a meaningful amount of DNA in million-year old specimens, but not 65–million-year-old ones"
 
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Caliban

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Will do ... because I want to know how much their story changed from "This" -
Soft tissue found in 75 million-year-old dinosaur bones is a big deal for paleontology

After they had some time to work on that story.
I'm not sure what you think the Verge story says, but it does not support a young earth, much less Creationism in general. It simply says they found red blood cells. It also says this: ...before this finding, the researchers note in the study, the oldest un-degraded collagen ever recorded was about 4 million years old.

Hardly a case for Creationists. What do you think this demonstrates?
 
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