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Creationism VS Public schools

mpok1519

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Thank you. You have just validated my point.

By macroevolution, I mean one species changing into another through a series of intermediate forms. Evolutionary theory states that all life ultimately evolved from single celled organisms that lived in the water. If that is the case, everything evolved from something else, and there would have to be millions of transitions, yet there is not a single transitional form to back this idea up. There is no example of a fish that started growing legs, no example of fish that developed wings and became birds, etc.

Another thing...
Why do things evolve? To get better, stronger, more resistant to predators, etc. So it's based on survival of the fittest. If one species developed into a better species, why are all these old species still around? If fish developed into birds, and birds into dinosaurs, and ultimately into primates and then humans, why are there still fish? Why are there still single celled organisms? That just does not make sense.


yes, there are transitional forms; monkeys, apes, early hominids like austrelepithicenes(sp?), late hominids, homo-habilis, neanderthal, cromagnon, and then, us, the technologically, artistic, mathematical and nuclear powered humans. Do you think these species existed, or did these fossils show up from something else?

fossils do show these transitional steps within our own species; there are maps that show transitional species; like eohipus, which is just a really really small horse. Do you think eohipus really existed, or is it just a fossil of, something else?

We DO have observable transitional periods among species' developement; once must simply study and believe these facts to be true before one can truely understand them.
 
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Pete Harcoff

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Creationism is not "on the verge" of being taught in public schools. Our moronic friends at the ACLU will never let that happen, nor will the liberals or the radical left. They will never let such a good thing happen.


That's right, blame the "radical left" or the ACLU. When in fact, it's the US Constitution which makes it illegal.

And I know enough about evolution to know that Biblical creation makes a whole lot more sense and takes a whole lot less faith to believe in.

Evolutionary biology including common descent has real world application in various fields (agriculture, forestry, medical research, etc). Creationism does not.

So which makes more sense again? :confused:
 
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ChordatesLegacy

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Ok then. Let's have it. Prove evolution. And I mean "macroevolution," not "microevolution." Prove that species change into other species. Show me uncontestable proof in the fossil record of such changes, and prove to me the existance of intermediate forms. This should be entertaining. If you can convince me, then I'll become an evolutionist and I'll reject creation.

For a start there is no micro and macro evolution; JUST evolution, you cannot split evolution into two entities, just because evolution is observable.

This is creationist logic; evolution is proven, but it is tiny steps, so we accept these small steps but not big steps. A good analogy is the Empire Estate Building, creationists accept the small steps that make up the stairs between floors but will not accept that the floors exist.

You and other creations accept evolution; but put a caveat on it, MICRO EVOLUTION, evolution is evolution it does not come in two kind (forgive the pun) and you already agree it occurs.

But just to prove a point, here’s some long term evolutionary trends.

Horse evolution


image


LINK

Whale evolution

whaleevolution.gif



Transitions from fishes to first amphibians (tetrapods)

FishToTetra.jpg


Transitions from reptiles to first mammals

ReptileMammalTransition.jpg




Hominid evolution






hominidtimeline.jpg





LINKS

Tackleberry; you show a total lack of scientific understanding; evolution has been proved over and over again, you are just to indoctrinated into magic mysticism to see and accept it.
 
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Danyc

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Ace of Spades,
I see what you mean about the "wolf packs."

Listen, you made an unsupported assertion, that evolution was bunk. You were called on it, and were provided evidence for evolution.

You then ignore it. It is not your lack of knowledge (i.e., ignorance, which isn't in itself a bad thing, just unfortunate) that brings this upon you, its your attitude. And if you don't want a proverbial wolf pack to attack you then I suggest you show a willingness to learn.

Otherwise, don't post. This is a discussion and debate board. That is what we do here.
 
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Dogbean

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I was called on it, huh? I still haven't heard anything from you guys that proves macroevolution a a whole for the source of humans. You've proven microevolution, and I already agree that it exists. Anybody can post websites.....I can post websites too backing up my point....but I'm just a very busy man. You all come on this Christian board just to spew your apparently vast knowledge of science, unwilling to have your eyes opened, the same as you say of me. So we can go round and round and frustrate eachother, or I can just walk away knowing that I know the truth and you are in the darkness.....

Evolution is full of such big holes you can drive a truck through them. Even Darwin himself agreed with that.
 
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Danyc

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I was called on it, huh? I still haven't heard anything from you guys that proves macroevolution a a whole for the source of humans. You've proven microevolution, and I already agree that it exists. Anybody can post websites.....I can post websites too backing up my point....but I'm just a very busy man. You all come on this Christian board just to spew your apparently vast knowledge of science, unwilling to have your eyes opened, the same as you say of me. So we can go round and round and frustrate eachother, or I can just walk away knowing that I know the truth and you are in the darkness.....


You think we're equal here? What have you put forth? You haven't put forth a single bit of evidence, either for creationism or against evolution. Meanwhile, all of these people who supported this hole-riddled theory are posting numerous amounts of evidence for evolution. You asked for transitionals, you got transitionals. What are you complaining about?

If you don't discuss and debate, then get out, you're wasting all of our time.

Evolution is full of such big holes you can drive a truck through them. Even Darwin himself agreed with that.[/quote]

Have you ever actually read On the Origin of Species?

This one sentence shows just how much credit we should give you. Please, educate yourself. Its getting embarrassing.




You all come on this Christian board just to spew your apparently vast knowledge of science, unwilling to have your eyes opened, the same as you say of me

Don't make assertions about our thoughts of you; when we provide evidence for you, we are making an assumption that you are willing to learn. Why else would we go to the effort of helping you out? I thought at first, that you would be willing. You may still be willing. Examine what they have posted. Look at it closely, and form your conclusions, but they must be logical. That is how to be a freethinker, which I know you believe yourself to be.

If you cannot respond to what others have taken time out of their also busy lives to try to help you understand what evolution actually is (because from what you show here by what you say, you don't have a very good grasp of it at all), and you ignore them, then you are directly showing us that you are unwilling to learn.



The same as we say of you? We say it of you only after you show it. And you have shown it in this post.





Now, kindly respond to what you asked for, claimed does not exist, and have had posted for you in decent amount above.
 
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Danyc

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Here, Tackleberry, I will repost a post I made on the last page, one you did not respond to, please read it.







Tacklebery, I am glad you have showed a vested interest in learning; if you are willing to learn has yet to be shown. But please read what we have to say, and do not dismiss things offhand. You need to look at the facts and look at them carefully. I will now address this set of questions, please read these answers I'm giving you.


Another thing...
Why do things evolve? To get better, stronger, more resistant to predators, etc.



A common misunderstanding, I won't harp on you for it. Ok, first things first:

There is no 'why' in evolution. Why do things evolve? They simply do. It is not a why question. This is really important, remember this.

Right now we are trying to help you better understand was evolution actually is.

Theology has the final say on the 'why' question. Science says 'how'.





So it's based on survival of the fittest.



Sort of. But you mustn't misunderstand what the word 'fittest' means. 'Fittest' is used in context to a specific creatures' environment.

Can you tell me which animal is more fit, a tortoise, or a hare?

Well, say these two animals lived in a desert environment. Now, introduce birds of prey into this desert environment.

The hare is now hunted by these birds. The hare is now less fit for its environment, that is, it is less likely to reproduce than the tortoise, because the tortoise will not be hunted by these birds. They cannot take down a tortoise. But, they can attack and kill the hares.

The hare is now less fit than the tortoise, and the tortoise is now more fit for the environment then the hare is.

Do you now understand what 'survival of the fittest' means?


If one species developed into a better species, why are all these old species still around? If fish developed into birds, and birds into dinosaurs, and ultimately into primates and then humans, why are there still fish? Why are there still single celled organisms? That just does not make sense.

You're question is a common one, and I'm not surprised, it seems an obvious problem for evolution if you do not fully understand the implications of the question you are asking.

Ok, think about this:

The U.S. is here. The U.S. exists. It is a country across the sea from Britain.

Now...Was not the U.S. started by British people?

Why are British people still in existance if they became American people?

The simple answer to this question and yours is, not every British person became an American. The majority stayed back in Britain.

In the same way, not every member of a species undergoes the same evolutionary stages.

To give an example, if a group of black insects lived in the forest, and one of them, when born, was green, would not this green insect have a higher chance of reproduction than its brothers? After all, it can hide amongst the green leaves of the forest. Its brothers cannot. It would be less vulnerable to predators.

Now, this one insect is still green. But, it and its offspring and its offspring's offspring are the only green ones; the black insects still exist. They may or may not die off, but if they live on, there are now two colours of insects.

And you would be asking, if the green insects evolved from the black insects, why are black insects still around?


Many of the questions you are asking show a basic misunderstanding of what evolution actually is and what it entails. But its not a problem; we're always learning. Hopefully you learned something today as well.


Please read everything abovea few times over to really try and understand it. It is actually quite simple.
 
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Danyc

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I read it, and understand it, but it doesn't prove macroevolution.

Macroevolution IS evolution.

Microevolution IS evolution.

They are both evolution. Evolution does not need to be designated between small and large. Each is evolution; one is long term and the other is short-term.

If you accept one you accept the other. In the scientific community, there is no distinction besides time.


If you can provide a mechanism that would prevent a lot of 'micro'evolution from resulting in 'macro'evolution, please share it. I will personally send a letter with your post attached to the Nobel Prize foundation and you will have your medal within the year for disproving a fundamental theory of biological science that has been accepted for the past 150 years.
 
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Cabal

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I read it, and understand it, but it doesn't prove macroevolution.

Fyi, tack, noone's used the terms macro- and micro-evolution since the 30s (noone who does proper science, anyway). The reason being that they're the same thing on different timescales. Might be worth bearing in mind.
 
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Tomk80

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Fyi, tack, noone's used the terms macro- and micro-evolution since the 30s (noone who does proper science, anyway). The reason being that they're the same thing on different timescales. Might be worth bearing in mind.
Not since the 30s? Then what's this?
And this?
Or this?

Micro- and macro-evolution are still valid scientific terms, used to denote relative distances of relationship. Comparable to the way kilometers and millimeters are both valid terms, both used for different distances. The problem with the micro- / macro- distinction is that it appears (to me) to be more subjective. Micro-evolution will often refer to closely related species or genes, while macro-evolution denotes relationships that are more distant. See also this wiki.
 
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Cabal

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Not since the 30s? Then what's this?
And this?
Or this?

Micro- and macro-evolution are still valid scientific terms, used to denote relative distances of relationship. Comparable to the way kilometers and millimeters are both valid terms, both used for different distances. The problem with the micro- / macro- distinction is that it appears (to me) to be more subjective. Micro-evolution will often refer to closely related species or genes, while macro-evolution denotes relationships that are more distant. See also this wiki.

Ah, think I was reading this paragraph too quickly earlier this week:

"Russian entomologist Yuri Filipchenko (or Philipchenko, depending on the transliteration) first coined the terms "macroevolution" and "microevolution" in 1927 in his German language work, "Variabilität und Variation"[4].
Since the inception of the two terms, their meanings have been revised several times and even fallen into disfavour amongst scientists who prefer to speak of biological evolution as one process."

Invented in the 30s...and I guess scientists still do use the terms.
 
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MasterOfKrikkit

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I still haven't heard anything from you guys that proves macroevolution a a whole for the source of humans.

How about ERVs and Human Chromosome #2? (If you don't know about these and you're actually interested in learning, just say the word and I'll give a quick explanation.) There. Happy now?
 
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Vene

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I read it, and understand it, but it doesn't prove macroevolution.
Then define how you are using the term macroevolution. With biologists it means speciation, and guess what, I gave several examples of observed macroevolution.

While we're at it, why don't you provide evidence for creationism instead of complaining about these wolfpacks. You don't know anything about having your ideas attacked. Every time I post here I make sure not to get too aggressive, scientists are trained to be aggressive, and are used to others attacking their ideas aggressively. I've been grilled harder than anything in this thread and didn't lose my cool or cry that they were being unfair. And even if we are, so what? You have yet to refute a single point, you have yet to offer a single piece of evidence, and you have yet to explain what these so-called holes are. Maybe because you know you have nothing and if you try to point out what you think is a gap, you'll find it can be filled.
 
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Split Rock

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I was called on it, huh? I still haven't heard anything from you guys that proves macroevolution a a whole for the source of humans.
You asked for transitionals and got them. These were all examples of transitions between genera or higher taxa. How does that not qualify as "macroevolutiuon?"


You've proven microevolution, and I already agree that it exists.
Explain the difference to us, since we have shown transitions between higher taxa.



Anybody can post websites.....I can post websites too backing up my point....but I'm just a very busy man.
Everyone is "busy." I guess you are too "busy" to learn you are wrong.



You all come on this Christian board just to spew your apparently vast knowledge of science, unwilling to have your eyes opened, the same as you say of me.
Spew?


So we can go round and round and frustrate eachother, or I can just walk away knowing that I know the truth and you are in the darkness.....
Yes... the tried and true creationist tactic of decalring victory and then running away. :wave:


Evolution is full of such big holes you can drive a truck through them. Even Darwin himself agreed with that.
Show us some of them.
 
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Dogbean

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Anyone can post websites and then claim victory in a discussion, but the websites could be wrong. You have not proven evolution; nobody had "proven" evolution. If it was proven, there would be no debate, and it would not be called the "theory of evolution" anymore.
 
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Naraoia

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Anyone can post websites and then claim victory in a discussion, but the websites could be wrong. You have not proven evolution; nobody had "proven" evolution. If it was proven, there would be no debate, and it would not be called the "theory of evolution" anymore.
:doh: Again, this gddmnd word "theory".

Do you have the same problem with the Theory of General Relativity? Atomic Theory? Cell Theory? Could go on...

Yes, websites "could be" wrong. Books could be wrong. Scientific papers could be wrong. However, simply saying they "could be wrong" is like saying your watch "could be" showing the wrong time. I don't think you have grave doubts every time you check your watch unless you know the battery is running low or something. So how about you tell us why you think the websites are wrong (and no, "they don't agree with me" isn't a valid reason) instead of having doubt for doubt's sake.

Or if websites don't play, tell us what you would accept as reliable evidence. I hope you agree it's not a fair game if you just declare that every piece of evidence presented to you isn't actually evidence. I know it's easier to debate if you don't have to do any work but your partners might not like to do all the work and have no hope of ever making you respond to what they've posted.
 
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ChordatesLegacy

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Anyone can post websites and then claim victory in a discussion, but the websites could be wrong. You have not proven evolution; nobody had "proven" evolution. If it was proven, there would be no debate, and it would not be called the "theory of evolution" anymore.


Evolution is proven from many lines of evidence, including the fossil record and micro biology DNA etc. There is no debate about whether evolution is right or wrong; it is universally accepted by scientist’s world wide.

It is only the magical mystical creationists that disagree; referencing a Bronze Aged test, which incidentally does not exist anymore, as evidence for special creation or whatever the in vogue catch phrase is today.
 
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