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Creationism=religious philosophy, evolution=science

Astridhere

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In short. The post was not meant for you.

In longer: The post was meant for astridhere, who seems to think that disproving evolution would automaticly make creation a science, among other things. I am trying to argue that all the evidence I have seen 'for' creation is simply precieved evidence 'against' evolution. For the sake of arguement I've allowed that evolution is false and asked her to make her case for creation as a science.

I'll requote this nonsensical reply and again restate many evolutionists would not know what evidence is nor what it looks like.

By demonstrating there are NO ape/human intermediates in the fossil record (evidence) I have support for creation of kinds, apes and humans, with no intermediates (science).

So I have done much more than just discredit evolution. I am afraid evolutionists are so confused they no longer know what using support for their assertions looks like.
 
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Chalnoth

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That's the problem with evolutionists. They start threads like this then have zilch ability to defend their science. Hot air and insults is about all that is on offer.
I can't tell whether you're being serious, or are just repeating things that people who have actual knowledge have said to you.

Lucy, Ardi, have been dethroned and called into question as human ancestors. Did you know this? I'll bet not.
This is completely false.

I mean, in a sense we know that Lucy isn't a direct ancestor of humans. But Lucy is almost certainly more closely-related to humans than to any other living apes. Lucy, for the most part, looks like a chimpanzee that habitually walked on two legs. Her skull differs very little from modern chimpanzee skulls (which, incidentally, also look pretty similar to the orangutan skull you posted).

The feet, the knees, and the hips, however, look quite a bit more like our feet, knees, and hips than they look like chimpanzee feet, knees, or hips. Lucy was, more or less, a chimpanzee that walked upright.
 
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Chalnoth

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For now, you have no human/ape intermediates and that is science that supports creation and NOT evolution.
Then which of these skulls is human and which is ape?
hominids2.jpg


If there are no intermediaries, then there should be a clear way of distinguishing the two.
 
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Chalnoth

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I'll requote this nonsensical reply and again restate many evolutionists would not know what evidence is nor what it looks like.

By demonstrating there are NO ape/human intermediates in the fossil record (evidence) I have support for creation of kinds, apes and humans, with no intermediates (science).

So I have done much more than just discredit evolution. I am afraid evolutionists are so confused they no longer know what using support for their assertions looks like.
Look, fossil intermediates right above this post. Shocking, I know.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Well if it makes you chuckle perhaps you had best go look at what I said and prove me wrong. If you reply at all it will be with more baseless insults and ignorance of a steam of evidence you yourself have stated you have not read. Ignorance is no excuse..and you may now extract your foot from your mouth.
I'm sorry? You made such an overt logical fallacy that it made me chuckle.

I am still checking threads but so far I see not one single refute to my assertions.
Could you list them, so that we can discuss them more efficiently? I'm disinclined to browse 300+ posts.

Lucy, Ardi, have been dethroned and called into question as human ancestors. Did you know this? I'll bet not. They are now being seen as ape ancestors.
On the contrary, both Lucy and Ardi have their place in the tree of life. It is unknown as to whether Australopithecus afarensis is a direct ancestral species to Homo sapiens, but we know it is more closely related to the Homo genus than other hominids. As for Ardipithecus ramidus, we know it is not a direct ancestral species to H. sapiens, but it is nonetheless a glimpse into early hominids.

And both were always considered to be ape ancestors: 'ape' encompasses the superfamily Hominoidea, within which both A. afarensis and A. ramidus lie (specifically, both are genera in the tribe Homininae). Thus, both are apes.

The links are provided in previous posts. I have shown how erectus are apes. Every claim I made is backed by research from your own scientists. I have played this out for about a week and the only thing I get back is hot air like your response...total denial.
My post was comment on a single part of a single post of yours. You're exaggerating the seriousness of my involvement here.

The same can be said of all your so called intermediates eg deer to whale.

Do you know why your famous Lucy does not have eyebrow ridging when Erectus does?
She, like all primates, has an eyebrow ridge.

For now, you have no human/ape intermediates and that is science that supports creation and NOT evolution.
To be fair, you've yet to cite anything that supports Creationism. Even if what you say is true, even if evolution has no scientific merit - that doesn't for one second support Creationism.
 
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USincognito

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You never answered which F16 model (C or D) was represented by the pile of debris.

I see still are failing to grasp that machines are not analagous to living beings?

These orangs look more human than many of your homo erectus fossils.

Perhaps to a layman, but I bet a paleontologist could spot the difference immediately. And hey, why do you want to stop at a laymans evaluation of a skull? Why don't we also have a laymans evaluation of the bodies?

Please explain why Lucy does not have eye brow ridging while erectus does? In fact Lucy's skull I posted looks more human that many erectus skulls.

She does. The photo you're posting looks more like Taung Child than Lucy. Are you sure that's really Lucy? And if it is Taung Child, can you think of a reason it might have less pronounced brow ridges (hint, look at the juvenille Orang skull vs. the adult one).
Here's mock up of Lucy's skull.
DSC_0062_medium.jpg

which clearly has brow ridges. Here's a male Au. afarensis
DSC_0025_medium.jpg

again, with prominent brow ridges. I'm not sure where you're getting this claim that Lucy lacked brow ridges.

Why are there few fossil chimp ancestors or even other primates been found?

Why are there so few bison fossil lying around the plains of the U.S.? Why are there so few dinosaur fossils when they ruled the earth for 100 million years? Fossilization is a very rare process and can be made all the more rare if the environment a species resides in isn't conducive to that process. Jungles are not conducive to fossilization. Does this answer you question?

Why do you class Turkana Boy as human when his skull shows clearly ape traits and bears no resemblence to any variety of human skull today, but does resemble other primates? Turkana Boys skull actually resembles the first reconstruction of rudolfensis before it was corrected. I think Turkana Boy has been misrepresented yet still looks like an ape.

Calling Mark Kennedy! Calling Mark Kennedy!

This is funny, one of the YECs that's been around here the last 6 years (Mark) has been claiming that because of his body and that his cranial capacity is at the very outside limits of human cranial capacity, Turkana Boy must be a "human". It's rather refreshing to have you show up, ignore the placement of his foramen magnum (hint, it's not ape like), his cranial capacity (hint, it's not "human", but it is Homo) or his body (hint, it's definately not ape like), yet claim that he must be an "ape" because his face just "looks too ape like". Ironically it's the brow ridges and giant jaw that Mark constantly ignores to continue talking about cranial capacity.
 
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USincognito

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Nostromo

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Lucy, Ardi, have been dethroned and called into question as human ancestors. Did you know this? I'll bet not. They are now being seen as ape ancestors. The links are provided in previous posts.
So Evolution is wrong because humans didn't evolve from Lucy, modern apes did?
 
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Exiledoomsayer

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I'll requote this nonsensical reply and again restate many evolutionists would not know what evidence is nor what it looks like.
You cant deal with my point so instead you choose to be insulting, a common creationist tactic. See that is the problem if your whole case is build on a simple false dichotomy falacy.
By demonstrating there are NO ape/human intermediates in the fossil record (evidence) I have support for creation of kinds, apes and humans, with no intermediates (science).
It would also be evidence for humans having been dropped off here by spaceship after our native planet turned out to be in the way of a supernova and alliens saved us.

Now you may notice I provided no evidence of this planet, these aliens or the spaceship.

All I got is a few missing human fossils (if they are indeed missing.)

There are a myriad of 'explainations' that would fit that observation. Creation does not get a special ticket over aliens just because you think its the only other option you think is reasonable (its not btw.)

So provide evidence that creation is the correct one. And accept that merely disproving evolution is not good enough. (And Im being extremely generous here, you havent even dented the theory of evolution. I'm simply pointing out why the very concept of proving creation soley by argueing against evolution is barking up the wrong tree. I'm sure thats hard to accept but reality just doesnt work the way you want it too.)
 
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USincognito

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By demonstrating there are NO ape/human intermediates in the fossil record (evidence) I have support for creation of kinds...

OOOooo! Another advocate of "kinds". I wonder if you can take my simple challenge.

What "kind" do the following beings belong to and why are they related or why are they not related via common ancestry?

Shiitake mushroom
Bakers (or brewers) yeast
White truffle

Lilac
Apple Tree
Saguaro cactus

Cuttlefish
Scallop
Banana slug

Lobster
Dragonfly
Tarantula

Sea lion
Manatee
Humpback whale

And please, show your math. Have fun. :cool:
 
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Oncedeceived

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OOOooo! Another advocate of "kinds". I wonder if you can take my simple challenge.

What "kind" do the following beings belong to and why are they related or why are they not related via common ancestry?

Shiitake mushroom
Bakers (or brewers) yeast
White truffle

Lilac
Apple Tree
Saguaro cactus

Cuttlefish
Scallop
Banana slug

Lobster
Dragonfly
Tarantula

Sea lion
Manatee
Humpback whale

And please, show your math. Have fun. :cool:

I think kinds are as difficult to define as species is, just my opinion.:)
 
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Oncedeceived

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Perhaps, but that's no excuse to not make an effort...

...or is it?

I think it is fine to try in both cases but I've found that it comes down to subjective conclusions and so where that leaves us...who knows?
 
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Wiccan_Child

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I think kinds are as difficult to define as species is, just my opinion.:)
A species is, broadly, a group of organisms that can interbreed.

A kind is, broadly, a group of organisms that can interbreed and that were created as is by God however many years ago. 'Kind' refers to various, non-overlapping taxonomic levels. For example, both the genus Felis and the order Teuthida are 'kinds', as God created two sets of interbreeding organisms - one set would eventually diversify and speciate, and all its descendents would be known as Teuthida, while the other would be known as Felis.

It's like the modern tree of life, but arbitrarily truncated at a certain period in history. The species living at that point in time are the original 'kinds'. Evolution posits that these 'kinds' are themselves related further back in time.
 
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USincognito

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I think kinds are as difficult to define as species is, just my opinion.:)

Well, some of the things I've listed using common names are species, some genera and I think a family or two. That's a bit of a red herring though because evolution can explain why the groups of three are related via common ancestry and how the groups themselves are interrelated via common ancestry. The onus is on those making the "kinds" claim to show that they are not related.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Well, some of the things I've listed using common names are species, some genera and I think a family or two. That's a bit of a red herring though because evolution can explain why the groups of three are related via common ancestry and how the groups themselves are interrelated via common ancestry. The onus is on those making the "kinds" claim to show that they are not related.


Lobster
Dragonfly
Tarantula

This one surprised me. I was not aware that they were related.
 
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USincognito

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Actually, pretty much most of your intermediates are misrepresentations.

You know, if you had a sense or irony...

Remember how Neanderthal once looked like an ape man.

No, because I wasn't alive in the mid-1800s when such misconceptions and the now anachronistic concept of a "missing link" ruled paleoanthropology.

There were no new discoveries that morphed Neanderthal into a human indiscernable from the variety of humans today.

Completely untrue. It was the discovery of many other tranistional hominids that dispelled the 19th Century misconceptions about Neanderthal as well as paleoanthropological finds that gave us insight into their primative culture (relative to us and Cro-Magnon H. sapiens). Neanderthals also are not indiscernable from "the variety of humans today". They have a number of unique characteristics that definatively qualify them as a separate or subspecies of genus Homo.

It was DNA. Hence, thank the Lord, he gave us this evidence and folley that demonstrates just how biased your representations can be.

Yes, DNA showed them conclusively to not be modern H sapiens. How then is the NDNA Project supposed to support your assertions?

Here is your (F) Rudolfensis, above...an ape.

You base that on those simple profile drawings? How trained are you in primate anatomy and how much intimate knowledge do you have about Rudolphensis anatomy specfically?

Lluc, the flat faced ape 12myo.

And did you read the whole article, including this part:
"The detailed morphological study of the cranial remains of Lluc showed that, together with the modern anatomical features of hominids (e.g., nasal aperture wide at the base, high zygomatic rood, deep palate), it displays a set of primitive features, such as thick dental enamel, teeth with globulous cusps, very robust mandible and very procumbent premaxilla. These features characterize a group of primitive hominoids from the African Middle Miocene, known as afropithecids.

Interestingly, in addition to having a mixture of hominid and primitive afropithecid features, Lluc displays other characteristics, such as a very anterior position of the zygomatic, a very strong mandibular torus and, especially, a very reduced maxillary sinus. These are features shared with kenyapithecines believed to have dispersed outside the African continent and colonized the Mediterranean region, by about 15 million years ago."

So, Lluc has a surprisingly reduced prognathism, but every other characteristic in his head resembles other hominids and primative pre-hominids. You can't just look at one characteristic or look at a profile drawing and go on gut instinct. There are professional anatomists that are much more qualified to make classifications of these fossils than you or I.

Lucy
Lucy: The First Hominid Skeleton

Above is Lucy, with curved fingers, no heavy eye brow ridging...and still an ape.

This is why you should know what the heck you're talking about and not rely on search engine results. The photo on the left not only isn't Lucy, it's not even an Australopithecine. It looks to me like a modern human who has been ritually buried or, perhaps a sacrifice or murder victim. The photo on the right isn't Lucy either - as I've already pointed out to you - but is instead Salem and I think I figured out how you messed up. Salem is popularly referred to as "Lucy's child" despite being a couple hundred thousand years older than she is. That's probably how you got the incorrect search result that you did.

Above is Turkana Boy, Erectus or eragaster, they haven't made up their mind...as you see the side view shows...an ape...and an ape with heavy eyebrow ridging. If you square his chin up by tilting the head back a little even more does he look like an ape.

{snip a lot of bluster by someone who clearly doesn't know the most basic facts about the topic upon which she's lecuring people}

Turkana Boy, since he lived in Africa, is ergaster. And I've already pointed out that you need to not only look at all the characteristics of the skull, you also need to look at the body and it clearly isn't "ape".
 
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Chalnoth

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Turkana Boy, since he lived in Africa, is ergaster. And I've already pointed out that you need to not only look at all the characteristics of the skull, you also need to look at the body and it clearly isn't "ape".
Well, it is ape, but no more ape than we are.

I think the clear distinction to be made here is that the human lineage is the only lineage of apes known to have walked upright habitually, which can be clearly determined by the structure of their hips, knees, and feet.
 
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USincognito

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Well, it is ape, but no more ape than we are.

Yeah, that's why I used the "quotes". Proper binomial names and phylogenetic classifications are the electrified rail for most Creationists. Note how when they talk about "kinds" they always use common names for barnyard or petting zoo beings or meaningless verbiage like "goo to you" or "frog to prince".

I hate to succumb to hubris, but there simply isn't a Creationist out there, layman or self-declared professional that can respond seriously to my "kinds" challenge - especially when I include triads like groups of mollusks and arthropods.

And back to the "ape" thing, have you ever seen the Talk Origins chart that shows the disparity amongst Creationists who consider a particular hominid species "fully ape" and "fully human"? It's quite humorous.

I think the clear distinction to be made here is that the human lineage is the only lineage of apes known to have walked upright habitually, which can be clearly determined by the structure of their hips, knees, and feet.

How are you sir! :p I've been harping on the position of the foramen magnum being the characteristic determining bipedalism for 7 years now. Several years before Mark Kennedy came up with his crazy theory that hominids with a bidpedal foramen magnum placement are actually bipedal chimp ancestors... or whatever nonsense he's asserted regarding that hairbrained pronouncement.
 
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