JohnR7 said:
Miracles happen all of the time, very few people deny that.
Are you under the impression that I just stepped out of a cave, John? I've been involved in a number of threads based on precisely this topic and there are usually more members challenging the assumption that miracles occur than there are people claiming they do occur.
JohnR7 said:
I worked as a carpenter long enough to know that something metaphysical is going on out there. New construction maybe different but when it comes to remodeling and renovation you had better be able to pull a miracles out of your hat every now and then. Because without it your not going to be able to finish the project.
So I repeat again, where is your evidence that the God of the Bible is not true. In what way can you falsify the Bible and show that it is not true.
Do you remember what I asked of you? I asked that you provide me with some examples of actual miracles. What did I get? I received from you, another unsupported claim that miracles occur, but not a single example of anything remotely miraculous.
And I've already demonstrated to you several examples of biblical fallacy. The Bible isn't true on many counts. I gave you five distinct examples from the very first page. The fact that you wish to deny them and claim that my "interpretation" is flawed means very little. I didn't interpret the Bible, John. I simply read what it says and then showed you that those to whom Hebrew is the native language read the original Hebrew scripture to say exactly what I read the KJV to be saying. It's wrong, John. You can replace "water" with "ice", pretend "lights" doesn't refer to sources of light, assume dozens of things the Bible never claims, and within your edits perhaps find a place to hide from the facts, but your edited version of scripture isn't a part of the Bible. It's your distortion of the Bible. The actual Bible still says what it says and what it actually says is demonstrably incorrect.
JohnR7 said:
Like I said before, I had a friend once that did not believe in miracles. He needed a miracle but he did not believe in them, so he died.
Throughout the entire history of the Earth, every single person has been known to die, (excluding those currently alive who will all eventually die). So the only thing I can conclude by your statement is that all of us need a miracle or we will die. And since all of us either have or will die, there musn't be any miracles.
JohnR7 said:
The bottom line is that people who belive in healing and miracles tend to live.
When are you going to learn that statements devoid of support are devoid of credibility?
JohnR7 said:
People who do not believe tend to die.
Everyone dies, John. It's part of being a biological entity. You've already testified to how close you've already come to becoming further evidence of this. Are you operating under the misconception that because medical science was able to save you, that you'll now never die?
JohnR7 said:
So we have a lot of people alive today who belive. Because their belief keeps them alive.
Support for this please? As I mentioned, I used to work on an ambulance crew, John. I've seen believers die and witnessed the fear and dread on their face. I've watched them fight as life slipped away. They didn't receive any miracles and they're dead now.
JohnR7 said:
Or at least someone that had faith to believe. In the Bible it could be a parent, or an enployer or a friend who did the praying and who had faith to believe.
Are you trying to tell me that if one has adequate faith, that their friends and family members will never suffer from the ceasation of biological functions?
JohnR7 said:
There is nothing in all of science that has more proof than the effectiveness of a placebo. Every drug test they every run shows yet again that people get better when they take a placebo.
That's a rather severe over-statement but yes, many people seem to think they're feeling better if they have sufficient reason to believe they're getting better. But I think you're misunderstanding placebo effect. It's not that the people actually become more healthy; it's that they believe they have become more healthy. They play a little trick of self-deception. I can offer you specific examples, backed by scientific research if it helps you to grasp what placebo effect is and what it isn't.
JohnR7 said:
No, it's self-deception.
JohnR7 said:
Is that mind over matter?
It might be considered to be mind over matter. But it's obvious that you don't understand what placebo effect is and what it isn't. Placebo effect doesn't cure people, John. It only makes them feel that they're less sick.
One very prominent example involves a procedure which came into popular use in the 50s to combat angina, (chest pain due to inadequate circulation to the heart). It was believed that by tying off the mammary artery, that more blood would be supplied to the heart muscle. Since angina is the result of insufficient blood flow to the heart, it was believed this would decrease the pain experienced by sufferers.
The initial test surgeries showed remarkably effective results with patients reporting a dramatic decrease in discomfort. The procedure was deemed a success and was put into widespread use. But studies were then published in the
American Journal of Cardiology on the extreme susceptibility of placebo effect in cases of angina.
So just to be sure, doctors engaged in a study which would never be allowed today. About half of the angina patients offered the surgical procedure received, instead of the procedure, only an incision to the chest. This was to promote the belief that they had actually received the surgery. The rest did receive the surgical procedure. It was found that patients receiving the sham surgery reported the same degree of relief as reported by those who actually received the surgery. The results were published in the
American Journal of Cardiology.
(Diamond, E.G., "Comparison of Internal Mammary Ligation and Sham Operation for Angina Pectoris", American Journal of Cardiology 5, (1960), 483
This left surgeons once again looking for an effective treatment for angina. Eventually they turned to a new procedure wherein a hole was cut into the myocardium, (heart muscle), and the end of the mammary artery was sewn into the hole. The hope was that the artery would branch and grow, thereby improving circulation to the heart. Again patients reported a remarkable reduction in the pain of angina. But several years later some of the patients of this surgery died and were subjected to autopsies. It was found that no branching of the mammary artery had occurred, and thusly, circulation to the heart after the surgery was the same as it had been before the surgery. Placebo effect had struck again.
But the point here is that placebo effect is not something which causes sick people to get well despite not actually receiving a proper treatment and only believing that they have -- it's the effect of people believing they are better, despite the demonstrable fact that their condition hasn't changed. People don't get better due to placebo effect. In fact, sometimes people die because they believe they are better, report that they are better and therefore do not seek further treatment. They die just as dead as those who recognized they weren't getting better.
JohnR7 said:
Whatever it is, it works.
No it doesn't, John. That's very much the point. It doesn't work. But people
believe that it has worked. The damage isn't affected, the condition doesn't change, the sickness doesn't decrease. Only the person's perspective of their condition changes.
JohnR7 said:
If you get results does it really matter why we get the results we get?
But your results aren't real. They're a form of confirmation bias, just like placebo effect. And when it comes right down to it, the end result isn't affected by your means of confirmation bias anymore than it is by placebo effect.
JohnR7 said:
Do we really have to be able to explain everything? What harm does it do if people were to believe that prayer is effective and it works as long as you pray for the right things and are not being greedy or in violation of a natural or moral law somewhere.
It allows people to think they can rely upon God to fix things for them. And in believing God will take care of their problems, they sometimes neglect to follow routes which might actually bring more positive outcomes. Prayer doesn't work no matter how many people want to believe that it does. And if someone prays for recovery from an illness instead of seeking proper treatment, their recovery becomes less likely. It is harmful.
