Creationism - Lazy Man's science?

[JohnR7]

Now, let's examine his claim that "the Bible is proof of God."

ALL of the Bible is evidence for God, every jot and ever tittle. The Word of God will never fail.

Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

 

[vipertaja]

ALL of the Bible is evidence for God, every jot and ever tittle. The Word of God will never fail.

Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

This is C&E, John...not the 700 club.

 

[Beastt]

head of the Center for Theology and Science

Being head of a center based on contradictions I guess it wouldn't bother him that his "evidence of God" is full of them.

Is there a rule somewhere that says I have so say something, anything? Could you show me that rule?

It's not just one rule.

Here's one

Here is another

Here's a third

It is not what I say, it is what God says and what the Bible says that counts. We need to check everything out with the word of God to see if we can verify it or not.

You don't know what God says. You assume you know because you choose to believe in unverified claims of men you never knew. Even the existence of God is only an assumption and yet, you expect that your assumption of his existence, coupled with your assumption that the Bible is God's word is going to be compelling to those who understand what does and doesn't constitute evidence, and realize there is no evidence in support of God's existence or any tie between a supernatural entity and the Bible.

Before you can check anything out with the "word of God", you must first confirm that what you take to be the word of God, actually is. And the only way to do that is to search for the verifiable parts of that word and compare them to reality. But when we do that, we find that the word provided is demonstrably unsound and fallacious on many counts even under minimal scrutiny. It verifies itself to be other than the word of the creator of the universe, John. Sorry to tell you this but there's little doubt. If God created the universe, he'd know how it was done. If the Bible were his word, it would demonstrate that knowledge. Instead, the Bible demonstrates a distinct ignorance of reality which it seems to have passed on to some of the more eccentric of its readers.

 

[JohnR7]

Being head of a center based on contradictions I guess it wouldn't bother him that his "evidence of God" is full of them.

What do you think he "contradicts" the Bible? Or man made science? The general rule of thumb is to let God be true and every man a liar. Actually, Wise is about the only person I know that argues that God created the universe with an appearance of age. He does not believe that God did that with intention. The universe just looks that way to us according to Dr Wise.

 

[JohnR7]

It's not just one rule.

Here's one

Here is another

Here's a third

Your trying to judge me for integitry, honesty and the truth? It is amazing what people tell us about themselves. I never would have known that about you if you had not told me. You need to be careful how you judge others because as Psychology tells us, your only projecting yourself out onto others.

Matthew 7:1-2
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. [2] For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

 

[JohnR7]

You don't know what God says.

I know what God tells us in His written word to us.

You assume you know because you choose to believe in unverified claims of men you never knew.

I believe in the witness and the testimony of the Holy Spirit of God that was given to us to lead us and guide us into all truth. He is our comforter and our teacher. So we do not need man to teach us anything, because we are taught of God.

Even the existence of God is only an assumption

If you were to talk to my wife, she is positive that "assumption" is why I am alive right now and why she still has a husband. She gives God all of the credit for healing me and keeping me alive. There is nothing you can do and nothing you can say that will change her mind on that.

what does and doesn't constitute evidence, and realize there is no evidence in support of God's existence or any tie between a supernatural entity and the Bible.

The evidence is that I am still alive to have this conversation with you to try and show you the truth of God's love for lost humanity. So you can know that God has a good future for you and the He plans good things for you if you will allow Him to do a work in your life.

If the Bible were his word, it would demonstrate that knowledge.

The Bible has always demonstrated itself as being the truth to me. There has never been any question in my mind that it is all true. The only thing your doing is confirming that man can not be trusted. So it is obvious that we need to put our faith, hope, love and trust in the God who created us and this universe.

He is restoring this universe back to His plan and purpose so that the whole earth will become as Eden was. All of the earth will become a "paradise". It is reserved for those who walk in obedience and do everything they can to live right before God.

Even people who claim they do not know God, but they live by His moral law, they reap the benifit of that.

 

[OdwinOddball]

I am fully aware that there are people on this board who do not take the truth serious. Actually they do not belong here. They should be on the General Apologetics forum, because Science claims they can neither confirm nor deny God.

Good job quote mining as usual.

And as usual, you ignore the question.

Simple yes or no answer here John, but now it is two questions.

Are you going to provide this supposed Scientific Evidence you have claimed to have on numerous occasions that support your views?

If not, are you saying that you refuse to provide any substantiation for your claims?

 

[TheBear]

Probably. (with "science" in quotation marks)

Even more lazy is the repeated notion that we'll find out after we're dead in the grave.

 

[Beastt]

I know what God tells us in His written word to us.

No you don't because you don't know that what you hope is his word, really is. It's just an assumption, built upon desire to believe. It was written by men. It has always been known to have been written by men. "Men", John. Not God, but men.

I believe in the witness and the testimony of the Holy Spirit of God that was given to us to lead us and guide us into all truth.

So did the since deconverted Christians. The concept simply fails under scrutiny. Christianity certainly isn't the only religion for which people claim "spiritual experiences". And it has no greater hold over its members than do other religions. People believe, assume they've had this supposed experience of the Holy Ghost, then realize it wasn't what they had hoped it to be all of the time. In just eleven years, the U.S. has shown a decline in those who identify themselves as Christian of 9.7%. When you consider the number of people that represents, it's pretty obvious that the Holy Ghost has been wholly unconvincing, long-term, for a numerically significant number of people. When you observe that Canada, Australia and New Zealand have shown a similar decline over a similar period of time, the concept of the Holy Ghost spirals to the ground in flames.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm

He is our comforter and our teacher. So we do not need man to teach us anything, because we are taught of God.

Claims alone mean very little, John. Were you able to show any hint of knowledge not provided by man and the experiences of the real, (physical) world, perhaps your claim would have merit. But what you continually demonstrate on this board is verification that your claim here holds no substance.

If you were to talk to my wife, she is positive that "assumption" is why I am alive right now and why she still has a husband.

And if I were to talk to trained medical professionals with the evidence provided by your medical records, I would be given credible, demonstrable explanations as to why your biological processes continue today.

She gives God all of the credit for healing me and keeping me alive. There is nothing you can do and nothing you can say that will change her mind on that.

Lance Armstrong's first wife felt the same way about the fact that he survived cancer. His doctors, after the fact, gave him only a 2% chance of survival. People want to claim his survival as "miraculous" but it was only a numerically unlikely outcome. Were you to find 99 more people in his condition, one of those would likely survive. Two-percent doesn't mean certain death. It means survival is unlikely, but possible. He survived. And being firmly planted in reason, he gives no credit to any spiritual entity. Your wife is likely as immersed in her desires that her beliefs be true as are you. Why should I find her delusions more compelling than those you hold and present yourself?

The evidence is that I am still alive to have this conversation with you to try and show you the truth of God's love for lost humanity.

That's utter nonsense, John. Had you not had proper medical care, your biological processes would likely have ceased and your sentience would discontinue along with them. But you and your wife didn't demonstrate your faith by leaving it up to your God. Instead you followed reason and sought the help of men and science. And as soon as men and science did what you hoped they could do, you turned right back around, denied them any credit, and displace that credit back to your being of desire -- God.

So you can know that God has a good future for you and the He plans good things for you if you will allow Him to do a work in your life.

No, John, you can't know that. You can believe it. You can deny the reality around you in pursuit of your desires. But you can't know what you can't demonstrate to be true. Anything you hold to be true which remains beyond demonstrability is "belief" and only belief.

The Bible has always demonstrated itself as being the truth to me.

Do you live on a flat planet which remains stationary at the center of the universe with a sun, stars and moon which circle it within it's own atmosphere? Do you live below an atmosphere which is the dividing wall between the oceans on the planet and an immense reservoir of water above that atmosphere? Do you live on a planet where water remains liquid no matter how cold it gets? Do you live on a planet where green plants grow in near total darkness? The Bible is true to you only because when you encounter the many untruths it presents, you expend time and energy to interpret your way around those untruths.

There has never been any question in my mind that it is all true.

Which only serves to demonstrate why you believe it's true. You won't allow yourself to see the untruths. You intentionally and willfully blind yourself to it and take that process to such incredible extremes that you will boldly and blatantly proclaim you have evidence which supports the Bible against the contrary findings of science. Then when asked for the evidence, you play games of drawn-out evasion because even you know that the evidence doesn't exist. You simply want it to exist so much that you will proclaim that it does. But when pressed to provide the evidence, you continually fail. Then days or weeks later, you again produce the decidedly dishonest claim of evidence again.

If you would allow yourself the question, you'd find the answer to be other than what you wish. So, as you have admitted here, you simply won't allow yourself the question. That does nothing but demonstrate the fragile nature of your beliefs, John. Were you to allow yourself to question them, even for a moment, they would crumble like old wet plaster in an earthquake. So you protect them through willful blindness.

The only thing your doing is confirming that man can not be trusted.

You're right, John. Men cannot be trusted. That's why science relies upon evidence. In science, no matter how much men might proclaim anything to be true or untrue, only the evidence may be allowed to have the final word. But you deny this evidence and instead turn to the claims of men -- that their writings were actually those of God -- and through their falsified claims, deny the demonstrations of the evidence.

All you have are the claims of men and the blindness to the failures of those men. You correctly state that men cannot be trusted, then devote the whole of your trust to the words of men whom you've never known and can never know. Science places the foundation of knowledge in the evidence, leaving the words of men open to demonstration or the failure of demonstration. The words of your men have shown a failure of demonstration making them other than consistent with reality. And that which is not consistent with reality is false.

So it is obvious that we need to put our faith, hope, love and trust in the God who created us and this universe.

But the God in which you place your faith, hope, love and trust was born in the words of the men you've correctly claimed can't be trusted. God is not a construct of your own making. He is a construct of men, held in their writings and demonstrated to be false by the very nature of that which he is said to have created. The evidence will always speak the truth because it has no agenda, no emotion and no sentience. It lacks the ability to lie or distort. You instead turn to the claims of men who are betrayed by the very evidence they present as supportive of their claims. Everything about religions is based in the claims of men. The bibles are always the work of men. The indoctrination of others is always performed by men. The only evidence any ever present are the subjective experiences of men. Never do they present anything not produced, created or devised by men. And yet you tell us the men cannot be trusted. Then you ignore the evidence which lacks the ability to do other than provide the truth. And you ignore that evidence because you are uncomfortable with the truth. The truth denies you your desired beliefs so you reject it.

He is restoring this universe back to His plan and purpose so that the whole earth will become as Eden was. All of the earth will become a "paradise". It is reserved for those who walk in obedience and do everything they can to live right before God.

It will never happen, John. If you live another 30 years, or 50, or 100 or 1000 or even 10,000 years, you'll never live to see this occur just as you will never see the return of Jesus. You can proclaim the words of men all you like. But in the end, the evidence of reality will have the final say. And what it is already telling you is that your beliefs are destined to failure.

Even people who claim they do not know God, but they live by His moral law, they reap the benifit of that.

And even men who claim they are not the product of evolution carry within their bodies the evolutionary history of their DNA.

 

[JohnR7]

No you don't because you don't know that what you hope is his word, really is. It's just an assumption, built upon desire to believe. It was written by men. It has always been known to have been written by men. "Men", John. Not God, but men.

All your doing is telling me about yourself.
God does not give it to us to judge others.
They can only judge themselves.
I am nto the topic here anyways.

So did the since deconverted Christians.

I have no evidence that the "deconverted Christians" were ever christians. There are lots of parents that take their kids to church all of their lives, but not all of them make a decision for God. They have every chance and every opportunity, but that does not mean they take advantage of what has been given to them.

Were you able to show any hint of knowledge not provided by man and the experiences of the real,

Oh, I can provide it, your just not ready, willing or able to receive all of what God has for you.

And if I were to talk to trained medical professionals with the evidence provided by your medical records, I would be given credible, demonstrable explanations as to why your biological processes continue today.

Every time I talk to my doctor I ask him. Every time he give me a different answers. Why is he not consistant? Because he does not know.

2% chance of survival.

That means that 2 percent of the people figure out HOW to receive their miracle from God. The other 98% do not figure out how to receive what God has for them and they die. I have studied this for many, many years. I have studied who is able to receive from God and who is not able to receive from God. Of course not everyone wants to be healed. Some people are ready to go onto their reward.

But you and your wife didn't demonstrate your faith by leaving it up to your God.

I left it up to God. My wife was the one that called 911, not me. As far as my wife is concerned, she believe we have to do our part and God will do His part. Just like if we need money we can not sit around praying and asking God for money, we got to get out and go to work. If we do out part, He will do His part.

 

[Beastt]

All your doing is telling me about yourself.

First you say this, then you proclaim that you aren't the topic. It would appear that while you wish to believe that this does nothing but present me, you ultimately recognize that it is about you.

God does not give it to us to judge others.

Of course not, John. He doesn't exist. Therefore he can't give anything to us and never has.

They can only judge themselves.

We can still judge others, John. We have elaborate court rooms and a justice system specifically for that purpose. And in that you'll note that what your proclaimed God has or hasn't given us obviously has no bearing on what we do or don't have, or can and can't do.

Notice how when you look to the Bible for your "logic", that logic always falls apart?

I am nto the topic here anyways.

Why would you assume yourself to be the topic when you have already proclaimed that my posts only illustrate me? The topic here, John, is your beliefs, my beliefs and the beliefs of all others. If you're not here for that topic, then why are you here?

 

[Nathan Poe]

ALL of the Bible is evidence for God, every jot and ever tittle. The Word of God will never fail.

Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

You've said this ad nauseam, Johnny. Now comes the part where you're supposed to back it up...

And now comes the part where you try to change the subject...

And now comes the part where you pull your infamous "I know you are but what am I?" blather...

And now comes the part where you ramble on incoherently on a red herring...

And now comes the part where the rest of us wonder why we bother.

 

[JohnR7]

And now comes the part where the rest of us wonder why we bother.

I think that is one thing that we can all agree on: why do we bother?

Now comes the part where you're supposed to back it up...

We back it up with our witness and our testimony. If you reject that the Bible is clear about what we are to do.

Matthew 10:14
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

 

[steen]

And now comes the part where the rest of us wonder why we bother.

We don't. We stick him on ignore and deny him a forum for his claims.

 

[kangitanka]

And now comes the part where the rest of us wonder why we bother.

I've been wondering the same thing.
I lurked around here for a while before joining and what I have seen in the past few months are some people making claims with no evidence (JohnR7, dad, AV1611VET, and a few others come to mind) over and over again. Others keep asking them (ad nauseum) to back up their assertions with evidence, yet no evidence is put forth.
And yet people continue debating with them.

Why? It's been shown that evidence will not come forth from these people, so why bother? Why give them the apparent ego boost from the attention they gain? Really all that is happening is that those asking for evidence are doing nothing more than the equivalent of banging their head against a wall.

Ive just discovered the 'ignore' feature, btw

 

[Jase]

I keep responding to them just because I enjoy debating. Unfortunately, the forums, particular the debate forums aren't very active. Not enough good debates.

 

[JohnR7]

some people making claims with no evidence

The evidence is in the Bible. How much of the Bible have you read? Any at all?

 

[TheBear]

I've been wondering the same thing.
I lurked around here for a while before joining and what I have seen in the past few months are some people making claims with no evidence (JohnR7, dad, AV1611VET, and a few others come to mind) over and over again. Others keep asking them (ad nauseum) to back up their assertions with evidence, yet no evidence is put forth.
And yet people continue debating with them.

Why? It's been shown that evidence will not come forth from these people, so why bother? Why give them the apparent ego boost from the attention they gain? Really all that is happening is that those asking for evidence are doing nothing more than the equivalent of banging their head against a wall.

Ive just discovered the 'ignore' feature, btw

Welcome to the forums!

 

[kangitanka]

The evidence is in the Bible

Generalizations do not evidence make
Assertions do not equate to empirical evidence (in the objective sense)

How much of the Bible have you read? Any at all?

All of it.
More than once.
Now, your question should have been "How many times have you interpreted the Bible the way I do?" because your interpretation of the bible is the only reason you see any "evidence" at all

 

[kangitanka]

Welcome to the forums!

Thank you kind sir!