Creationism - Lazy Man's science?

And-U-Say said:

Wow! This is really good stuff. I am always imressed by your work. You should write a book.

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Thank you

Perhaps I should collect my posts from this thread, bind it into a book and call it;

Repetative Refutations to the Willful Ignorance of the Creationist Mind;
From Insomnia to Somnolence.​

Kind of a nice ring to it.

JohnR7 said:

I was going by your definition. We are not going to accomplish anything here because we can not even get our terms defined. Your like a boat without an anchor being tossed around by the waves. It is no wonder that you do not receive anything from God.

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This is the second time I've told you that there is no "the moral laws". How then do you suggest that you're using "my definition"? If I don't believe any such thing exists, how do you assert that I have a definition for it other than "that which doesn't exist"?

We won't accomplish anything if you insist that I've presented definitions for things when all I've presented is the assertion that the things which your suggesting, simply don't exist.

So again; there are actions which cause harm to others and actions which do not cause harm to others. I center my attempts on not bringing harm to others. If you wish to refer to that as "my laws of morality", then please go right ahead. But remember that this would not include sex outside of marriage, sexual desire without commitment, speaking against anyone's concept of any god, and a number of other acts, bringing no harm to anyone, which you feel are immoral. But it would include the trade in body parts and descrimination against anyone for their beliefs or non-harmful actions, which the standard Christian standard of morality allows.

JohnR7 said:

Beastt said:

Everybody dies, John

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You can not prove that,

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*blink* *blink*

JohnR7 said:

because some people do disappear without a trace. My theory is that will happen during the rapture.

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You should really make yourself familiar with what the word "theory" really means. Nothing about any such proposition can be qualified as "theory" or even a "hypothesis". About the best you can do for it is to refer to it as your "belief".

JohnR7 said:

There will be a nuclear war or some other kind of a disaster and people will just vanish without a trace.

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Nuclear war tends to do that. It's usually referred to as "vaporizing", but it isn't know to lead to any kind of continued existence.

JohnR7 said:

Most people will know what happened to them, and perhaps that will cause them to repent. But a lot of others will just think they died from natural causes, even if there is no trace of them or evidence of death.

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You do realize this is conjecture devoid of evidence, do you not?

JohnR7 said:

I looked for that two or three times, but I never did find it.

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Page 56 of this thread, Post #560, my third paragraph.

Thanks Kopilo

AV1611VET said:

Anton LaVey beat him to it.

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Aside from my non-acceptance of the Christian God, would you care to draw lines of comparison to show where any of his beliefs align with my own?

[Off Topic]By the way, I came upon a thread you might be interested in. It addresses the claims you were making recently about Psalms 22

http://www.christianforums.com/t3202647-questions-on-psalm-22.html

It turns out that the KJV translates the Hebrew "kaari" to mean "pierced" as in "they pierced my hands and feet". But the correct meaning of the word "kaari" is "like a lion" as in, "like a lion they are at my hands and my feet." Once you fix the mistranslation, every insinuation that this has anything to do with crucifixion melts away. It's a good read. You should give it a look and provide whatever contributions you may feel are appropriate.[/Off Topic]

JohnR7 said:

I am afraid that your the one that does not understand and I am running out of time to explain things to you. You do not seem very interested in the truth right now anyways. So if you want to be deceived, then go right ahead and enjoy your deception, for a season anyways.

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I appreciate that you take the time to try to explain things to me, John. The problem is usually that you haven't taken the time to first understand them yourself. Case in point;


METHODOLOGY
Two hundred sixty-six volunteers suffering from chronic arm pain. Subjects were asked to rate their pain on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the worst. Patients are divided into two groups of 133 subjects each. Both groups are warned of possible side-effects. One group is provided with acupuncture treatment. The second group is provided with a drug treatment. Duration of treatment is 10 weeks, after which test subjects are asked to again rate their pain.

OUTCOME
Subjects utilizing drug treatment report an average decrease in pain of 1.5 (on the 1 to 10 scale).
Subjects under acupuncture treatment report an average decrease in pain of 2.64 (on the 1 to 10 scale).

ABSTRACT
After being divided into two groups, each containing 133 test subjects, all subjects are warned of potential side-effects. Those receiving the acupuncture treatment are warned of potential pain, swelling and redness of the skin. Those receiving the drug therapy are warned of potential for dizziness, restlessness, rashes, headaches, nausea, dry mouth, fatigue and nightmares. Twenty-five percent of the acupuncture group reported suffering from the side-effects mentioned. Thirty-one percent of those receiving the drug therapy suffered from various combinations of the described side-effects. The reported side effects exactly matched those describe by the doctors at the beginning of the study. Three of the subjects receiving the drug therapy withdrew from the study after reducing the dosage failed to control their symptoms.

The trick here is that the instruments used were special retracting needles. No puncturing of the skin took place during the treatments. The drug used was a blue pill resembling amitriptyline, an antidepressant often prescribed for repetitive strain injuries. But the pill contained only cornstarch and coloring.

The full name of the research study is; Sham Device vs. Inert Pill: Randomized Controlled Trial of Two Placebo Treatments
http://www.discover.com/issues/apr-06/rd/placebo-placebo/

So, we see that if a person with the appearance of authority, such as a doctor, suggests the potential for side-effects, a sizeable number of test subjects will experience those side effects, even though there is no cause for their suffering. Some are so convinced that they are suffering the effects of a drug being tested, that even decreasing the dosage, (of an inert pill), does not produce a decrease in the severity of the side-effects. We see that not receiving acupuncture appears to be 11.4% more effective than not receiving drug therapy, in the threatment of chronic arm pain.

It's not a miracle, John. It's simple power of suggestion, combined with human perception. If you tell someone they're receiving a treatment which will ease suffering, many will report that the treatment is effective, even if no treatment is actually administered. If you suggest that the treatment itself might cause suffering, many will believe that they are experiencing this suffering. But their is no evidence that the arm pain suffered by the test subjects underwent any change, aside from the testimony given by the test subjects.

As with the other examples I offered, if people believe they have received a surgery which will reduce their pain, many will believe their pain is lessened. But their condition remained he same. Circulation to the heart muscle was still compromised. These patients felt better because they believed in the treatment. And they believed in the treatment even when they didn't, in reality, receive the treatment. Chronic arm pain isn't life threatening. Angina pectoris is a different matter. It's often the precursor to heart attack. And a person who believes they perceive less pain after receiving a sham treatment is no less susceptible to heart attack than they were before being convinced that they received a treatment. They suffer less anxiety because they believe the treatment, (that they didn't receive), has been effective. Such belief can lead to the failure to recognize a lift-threatening condition. It's not a miracle when people believe things which aren't true, even if they are so convinced that they believe they have experienced a physical manifestation as a result. This is much like children who have become convinced that they were sexually molested, even though no such molestation has occurred. Studies have shown that the simple suggestion, given by those the children believe to be authorities, is sometimes enough to cause the child to believe they've had experiences which simply never occurred.

Beastt said:

Did you suffer a heart attack, stroke or other serious illness?

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I went to my doctor and he said I had acid reflux and recommended Prilosec. I went to the emergency room and they said I had Pneumonia and gave me a new antibotic where you take one a day for five days. At the end of five days I was still sick and I called my doctor to see about getting some more medicine. He did not return my call so I decided to just pray and leave it all to God. I do not really remember what happened after that until there was a nurse talking to me and when I tried to answer it was as if a fourth of my brain was gone. So I did what I always do, I prayed and then I could feel the prayers of the people at the church and I could feel God heal me. I can remember every little detail after that, esp all the stupid info commericals that they have on the TV set all night long there. It was really boring. I don't remember anything for a week, but then the next week I remember all the tiny little details so it is as if I remember more than I did before I got sick. They say what does not kill you will make your stronger.

Can you see why I have more than enough reason to doubt your claims?

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That is fine, if I have nothing to offer you, then I have nothing to offer. I am sure you will find the help you need from someone else.

Beastt said:

It's not a miracle, John.

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Ok, so your saying you do not believe in miracles. You do not believe that a metaphysical change can take place without a natural explaination.

The problem with that is that the doctor far to often does not have a natural explaination.
Far to often there is nothing they can do to help, because they do not even know what the problem is.

So I know if I need a miracle, you are not the person to talk to. If I need a miracle, then the thing to do would be to talk to someone that believes in miracles.

JohnR7 said:

I went to my doctor and he said I had acid reflux and recommended Prilosec. I went to the emergency room and they said I had Pneumonia and gave me a new antibotic where you take one a day for five days. At the end of five days I was still sick and I called my doctor to see about getting some more medicine. He did not return my call so I decided to just pray and leave it all to God. I do not really remember what happened after that until there was a nurse talking to me and when I tried to answer it was as if a fourth of my brain was gone. So I did what I always do, I prayed and then I could feel the prayers of the people at the church and I could feel God heal me. I can remember every little detail after that, esp all the stupid info commericals that they have on the TV set all night long there. It was really boring. I don't remember anything for a week, but then the next week I remember all the tiny little details so it is as if I remember more than I did before I got sick. They say what does not kill you will make your stronger.

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Please don't feel obligated to answer anything which is private to you. But I do have some questions;

Where did the 911 call, firemen (paramedics/IEMTs/EMTs), come in? Did they take you to the hospital?
Was there ever a definitive diagnosis made? What treatment(s) did you receive prior to your recovery?

JohnR7 said:

That is fine, if I have nothing to offer you, then I have nothing to offer. I am sure you will find the help you need from someone else.

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I think you have much to offer, John. I wouldn't be spending so much time and effort on this if I thought it was pointless.

Beastt said:

Where did the 911 call, firemen (paramedics/IEMTs/EMTs), come in? Did they take you to the hospital?

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All I know about that is what my wife told me. She said that I woke her up at 5 in the morning. She called 911 and they told her to do CPR. She had just finished a class on that. Then they came out and shocked my heart to get it going again. They told her it did not look very good, but they would do what they could. Somehow they got me down the steps and to the hospital. I am sure it was difficult to get me down those steps.

The pastor said when he saw me in the hospital he went home and cried because he really did not think I was going to make it. His wife verified that is what happened. Of course I do not remember anything, so I not know what they had me on. But I think they were trying to get my lungs cleared out. But I do not know what tubes or live support they had me on.

The doctor put in one stint and they put in a defibrillator. My wife said they used the defib to shock my heart five times to try and get it steady. I am pretty sure I remember that. It was something I noticed but it was not all that painful. It is a very mild shock.

The only other thing I remember was my wife asked me if I knew who she was. I remember laughing because I though I had been married to her for 8 or 9 years so of course I knew who she was. She said she thought it was very strange that I was laughing but that I did not answer her otherwise.

What was the question again? Do you want to know what I know, or what people told me?

I think you have much to offer, John.

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I guess it is a good thing I am still alive then, if you think I have something to offer.

Is that why you do it? Is that why you run out in the middle of the night to get someone's heart going again?

JohnR7 said:

Ok, so your saying you do not believe in miracles.

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I'm saying there is no evidence of any miracle ever occurring and I base my beliefs on evidence rather than desire.

JohnR7 said:

You do not believe that a metaphysical change can take place without a natural explaination.

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I see no evidence of a "metaphysical". There is no credible reason to believe that any such thing exists.

JohnR7 said:

The problem with that is that the doctor far to often does not have a natural explaination.

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The phrase, "I don't know" is not equivalent to "Goddidit".

People didn't used to understand what could cause a mountain to belch ash, fire, magma and gases. So to fill in the gap, they assumed a volcano god. They did the same thing with earthquakes, rain, droughts, tsunamis and pretty much anything else that seemed out of the ordinary and without an obvious explanation. They were wrong in every case. But people don't tend to learn from the multitudes of failures in god-related explanations. They even deny the true explanations when they're found. But eventually, society comes to accept the naturalistic and demonstrable explanations. But they continue to apply gods to anything they don't fully understand.

JohnR7 said:

Far to often there is nothing they can do to help, because they do not even know what the problem is.

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Which only means that they don't fully comprehend the problem or that they are without a means by which to correct the problem.

JohnR7 said:

So I know if I need a miracle, you are not the person to talk to. If I need a miracle, then the thing to do would be to talk to someone that believes in miracles.

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Apparently, when your wife needed a miracle on your behalf, she turned to naturalistic methods and called someone who does what I do. She did the right thing.

JohnR7 said:

All I know about that is what my wife told me. She said that I woke her up at 5 in the morning. She called 911 and they told her to do CPR. She had just finished a class on that. Then they came out and shocked my heart to get it going again. They said it did not look very good, but they would do what they could.

The pastor said when he saw me in the hospital he went home and cried because he really did not think I was going to make it. His wife verified that is what happened. Of course I do not remember anything, so I not know what they had me on. But I think they were trying to get my lungs cleared out.

The doctor put in one stint and they put in a defibrillator. My wife said they used the defib to shock my heart five times to try and get it steady. I am pretty sure I remember that. It was something I noticed but it was not all that painful. It is a very mild shock.

What was the question again?

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You answered the question, John, thank you.

So it seems that you were suffering symptoms that were never fully explained. Perhaps the diagnosis of acid reflux was actually a heart attack. Myocardial Infarction, (heart attack), manifests in a number of different ways. The pain can be in the abdomen, chest, back, neck, shoulders and/or arms. It's not uncommon for the patients to assume it is indigestion or heart burn but doctors should be a bit more cautious, especially at your age and knowing you're a smoker and follow an omnivorous diet.

You turned to prayer, hoping for a miracle. What you received was clinical death, (or something very close). Obviously, you didn't get better by praying, you got worse. Your heart stopped.

Only when your wife intervened and turned to naturalistic methods did you begin to respond, regain a pulse and start to get better.

Your wife did the right thing. Had she prayed instead, you'd likely not be with us today. I hope that someday you will be able to learn from the lesson integral to such an experience. So far, it seems you've avoided seeing the lesson. Hopefully, should you have such symptoms again, you'll turn immediately to naturalistic methods. Pray all you like if you feel that will help. Come back here and call me "ignorant" and "blind". But please don't put off methods based on research and reason until it's too late.

Jase said:

I think calling fellow board members creators of Satanism is very unChristian.

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Why? Is there something wrong with Satanism now???

I've shown you from the NIV where Jesus and Satan are one and the same. Surely you don't think the King James trumps the NIV, do you?

AV1611VET said:

Why? Is there something wrong with Satanism now???

I've shown you from the NIV where Jesus and Satan are one and the same. Surely you don't think the King James trumps the NIV, do you?

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I think both of them are flawed translations of the original. I wouldn't trust either one to get everything correct. They are fine for a basic read of scripture, but absolutely don't tell the entire story.

Beastt said:

Aside from my non-acceptance of the Christian God, would you care to draw lines of comparison to show where any of his beliefs align with my own?

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I doubt I could do that. Both come from the same source --- the author of confusion.

[Off Topic]By the way, I came upon a thread you might be interested in. It addresses the claims you were making recently about Psalms 22.

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Now why would I be interested in that? If I want to know what the Bible doesn't say --- I'll come here and read you guys' posts.

It turns out that the KJV translates the Hebrew "kaari" to mean "pierced" as in "they pierced my hands and feet".

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Imagine that!

But the correct meaning of the word "kaari" is "like a lion" as in, "like a lion they are at my hands and my feet."

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Hmmm --- I wonder how the NIV, RSV, and HIV "translators" missed that?

Once you fix the mistranslation, every insinuation that this has anything to do with crucifixion melts away.

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Yup --- so Psalm 22 doesn't mention a crucifixion in progress, like I claimed once before, right? And here I was just starting to believe my own posts!

It's a good read. You should give it a look and provide whatever contributions you may feel are appropriate.[/Off Topic]

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No, like I said, if I want to know what the Bible doesn't say, I'll come here an read you guys' dime-a-dozen critiques.

I think the KJV-phobe camp has enough contributors already, don't you?

AV1611VET said:

I doubt I could do that. Both come from the same source --- the author of confusion.


Now why would I be interested in that? If I want to know what the Bible doesn't say --- I'll come here and read you guys' posts.


Imagine that!


Hmmm --- I wonder how the NIV, RSV, and HIV "translators" missed that?


Yup --- so Psalm 22 doesn't mention a crucifixion in progress, like I claimed once before, right? And here I was just starting to believe my own posts!


No, like I said, if I want to know what the Bible doesn't say, I'll come here an read you guys' dime-a-dozen critiques.

I think the KJV-phobe camp has enough contributors already, don't you?

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Untill you can justify using a second hand translated copy instead of an orginal as a definative source, the anti-AV1611VET-KJV camp is just going to continue to grow.

Jase said:

I think both of them are flawed translations of the original. I wouldn't trust either one to get everything correct. They are fine for a basic read of scripture, but absolutely don't tell the entire story.

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Just like Science, huh? Science doesn't give us the whole picture --- just some of it, until more evidence comes along to push us closer to the truth, right?

Then we adjust our theories and paradigms accordingly and go from there until next year.

OdwinOddball said:

Untill you can justify using a second hand translated copy instead of an orginal as a definative source, the anti-AV1611VET-KJV camp is just going to continue to grow.

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Oh, believe me, it'll still grow, whether I justify it or not.

AV1611VET said:

Oh, believe me, it'll still grow, whether I justify it or not.

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You believe a lot of things without evidence. Doesn't make any of them right.

Evidence is king. Without it, all you have is conjecture and opinion. The evidence of reality is that a translation is never as accurate as the original. Languages vary too much for that. Just because you are too lazy to be bothered to learn Hebrew and Greek doesn't mean you're version is better. It just means it requires effort to understand.

Knowledge takes work. The easy path is the road to ignorance. Time after time we see this evidenced in the actions and posts of those who cannot be bothered to learn science and instead reject it unstudied. And yet you all seem proud of this.

Its really no different than the attitude in high schools. Where the kids who get good grades get picked on by those who cant be bothered to even try. Thats all this board really is in the end. Just a continuation of the fight between those who actually wanted to learn, and those who thought learning was beneath them.

AV1611VET said:

I doubt I could do that. Both come from the same source --- the author of confusion.


Now why would I be interested in that? If I want to know what the Bible doesn't say --- I'll come here and read you guys' posts.


Imagine that!


Hmmm --- I wonder how the NIV, RSV, and HIV "translators" missed that?


Yup --- so Psalm 22 doesn't mention a crucifixion in progress, like I claimed once before, right? And here I was just starting to believe my own posts!


No, like I said, if I want to know what the Bible doesn't say, I'll come here an read you guys' dime-a-dozen critiques.

I think the KJV-phobe camp has enough contributors already, don't you?

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Sometime when you're in a reflective mood, I'd like you to think a bit about the attitude you displayed in presenting this post.

Why is it necessary to take such an attitude in defending your position? Is it perhaps, that without such a stance, there simply isn't any defense?