Creationism - good or bad?

[crawfish]

Because you have never explained why tornados happen.

How can you possibly know anything you claim here?

Where is your evidence?

You want to say "common sense" and thus beg the question, go ahead.

But, you haven't the slightest proof that tornados are not caused by an angered Elohim, ashtoreth, beelzebub, satan or the wrath of Khan.

You still don't get it. We know enough to know when tornadoes can happen and when they can't. We can take data from each occurrence and add it to an overall view that will eventually lead us to know how to better predict them. If God, or any other supernatural being, is responsible for them, then that being is doing it in a way that is consistent, predictable and testable. In other words, it is a natural process.

We are separating two forces here, calling them "natural" and "supernatural". The first we can discover, predict and count on. The second is offered by God as God decides, and CANNOT be predicted. If every time someone prayed for a peanut one would appear in their hand, that would be a natural process. Conversely, if a tornado appeared out of a clear sky out of the wrong weather conditions exactly once, that would be supernatural.

You YEC's downplay the natural. You think that calling anything "natural" takes away from the glory of God. The question is, why?

 

[Mallon]

Biology. He's also very much into astronomy.

Cool! What about biology, specifically?

 

[juvenissun]

Can your son formulate a hypothesis?
Can he propose evidentiary tests of those hypothesis?
And can he recognize when a hypothesis has been falsified?
And can you?

Hey, Shernren, what is the normal age for a teens to become aware (I avoid the word "learn") of all the above considerations? I constantly have tens of kid sit in my geology class. I would say only a couple of them (graduated from public high schools) can begin to think independently along those threads.

On the other hand, it might not be so good for a kid to think about your questions too early (college is about the right time). It may affect the "grade" of their science courses, because once they start the thinking, they could out smart their teachers, and overlook the foundation of knowledge they should lay at their age.

 

[Mallon]

On the other hand, it might not be so good for a kid to think about your questions too early (college is about the right time). It may affect the "grade" of their science courses, because once they start the thinking, they could out smart their teachers, and overlook the foundation of knowledge they should lay at their age.

Yes, by all means, let's stop children from thinking at an early age, lest they outsmart their professors.
Is this really a concern of yours, juvenissun?

 

[shernren]

Hey, Shernren, what is the normal age for a teens to become aware (I avoid the word "learn") of all the above considerations? I constantly have tens of kid sit in my geology class. I would say only a couple of them (graduated from public high schools) can begin to think independently along those threads.

On the other hand, it might not be so good for a kid to think about your questions too early (college is about the right time). It may affect the "grade" of their science courses, because once they start the thinking, they could out smart their teachers, and overlook the foundation of knowledge they should lay at their age.

I really don't know when kids start thinking this way. I'm pretty sure that they do it subconsciously really early. For example, my little bro employs "hypothesis-test-assess" mentalities all the time when dealing with the computer - what happens if I do this? or that? It's the same way I've treated my computer too since I had a CD drive.

But science is about consciously applying this mentality to the physical universe, and that is something that doesn't happen very often even for those of us who are very skilled at unconsciously applying such methods.

In any case. Why shouldn't a kid be taught to think about these things early on? Anyone who can really understand what an atom is, is smart enough to understand how people arrived at the idea of the atom.

 

[gluadys]

In any case. Why shouldn't a kid be taught to think about these things early on? Anyone who can really understand what an atom is, is smart enough to understand how people arrived at the idea of the atom.

I was bored stiff by science in elementary and high school. It wasn't until I began learning the history of scientific ideas that I took interest. Taught properly, science can be as intriguing as a detective story. Because in many ways, that is what it is. We find clues, we puzzle over what they mean, we create hypotheses and test them, and we follow the ones that lead somewhere until we arrive at an explanation.

 

[Snowbunny]

Yes, by all means, let's stop children from thinking at an early age, lest they outsmart their professors.
Is this really a concern of yours, juvenissun?

you have one of the coolest personal photos i have seen here! where on earth did you get close to a collection like that?

 

[Snowbunny]

hola,

i went to private and boarding schools so i'm not familiar with this... but are public schools as bad as people here make them to be? i feel like there is a hidden accusation of agenda and propaganda behind some of the criticisms of public schools, specifically as it relates to evolution...

que Dios te bendiga

 

[WarEagle]

Cool! What about biology, specifically?

It had to do with (and, forgive me, I'm not a biologist or an engineer) nerve impulses and robotics.

He's always been interested in robotics, ever since he was little and would watch the robot competitions on TV. Then, one day, he was reading about soldiers coming home from Iraq needing prosthetics and got interested in that.

It's pretty cool, really.

He's also done some things with robotics and voice recognition.

 

[Mallon]

you have one of the coolest personal photos i have seen here! where on earth did you get close to a collection like that?

I'm a grad student in palaeontology. I spend a lot of time in museum collections.
(That photo was taken at the Canadian Museum of Nature in Ottawa.)

 

[juvenissun]

I really don't know when kids start thinking this way. I'm pretty sure that they do it subconsciously really early. For example, my little bro employs "hypothesis-test-assess" mentalities all the time when dealing with the computer - what happens if I do this? or that? It's the same way I've treated my computer too since I had a CD drive.

Yes, you are probably right. Things change so fast.

I was educated in the old fashion. And as a consequence, I encountered a dilemma as a teacher when people started to emphasize the teaching of "critical thinking". The old fashion way of doing that is: feed the student enough facts, then the student WILL start to think critically when the time is right. However, the new way is: teach student to think critically "without much knowledge".

Yes, indeed, the use of computer justified the change. The "what if" exercise is never so easily done before.

But, the general education on science is not up to that stage yet. What you said only happened outside the classroom and has not happened in most science teachings, particularly, not seen in class test. If a kid does the what-if game too often, he would risk in getting D in test. One old fashion professor complained to me: they do not even read the textbook, how could they learn anything? I teased her: may be they are good in thinking, did you test them on that?

In fact, this is not only a problematic feature in secondary education. It is also a serious problem in higher education. There are still many old fashion professors around (not necessary old in age ). If a student ask too many what-if questions, one common answer given is: go back to read more papers.

To my opinion, in order to upgrade the (undergraduate and lower) science education, the science textbooks HAS TO be modified in a revolutionary way. The inclusion of some websites in textbooks today is only a very very small step toward it. The pedagogy, in general, is still century old.

 

[Mallon]

i went to private and boarding schools so i'm not familiar with this... but are public schools as bad as people here make them to be? i feel like there is a hidden accusation of agenda and propaganda behind some of the criticisms of public schools, specifically as it relates to evolution...

I wasn't even taught evolution in public school until university. A lot of what I had learned about evolution early on was self-taught from palaeontology books.
I can't speak for the education system in the US, but I expect you're right. There's no global congregation of evil atheistic professors conspiring against young Christian minds through the teaching of evolution. That's just a scare tactic used to whoop up support from fundamentalists.

 

[Snowbunny]

I wasn't even taught evolution in public school until university. A lot of what I had learned about evolution early on was self-taught from palaeontology books.
I can't speak for the education system in the US, but I expect you're right. There's no global congregation of evil atheistic professors conspiring against young Christian minds through the teaching of evolution. That's just a scare tactic used to whoop up support from fundamentalists.

hola,

if i am not mistaken education is part of the police powers doctrine that the supreme court uses in reviewing 10th amendment cases... so in theory curricula are probably set on a state by state basis... but i am not certain.

i learned evolution in High School... i went to a very good boarding school called PA Andover near Boston, it's a full course taken at the 500 level... it never bothered me, prima facie it seems rational and the explanations are logical and well grounded. it's an entire field of study in its own right though... people could spend their lives debating its existance or studying its tracks in history. i pursued one of my majors in biochemistry in college at Columbia and by that time it really did not matter whether you believed we were created in seven days or evolved over eons... those kinds of questions were outside the purview of that kind of biology.

lol strangely i would say that a lot of my professors were so aggressive about atheism i might call it an agenda or a mission. i dearly loved all of my professors but some of them made it their mission in life to make me stop believing in God, since i'm so overtly Catholic. one in particular clearly had a little crush on me but we were friends and he always invited me to his office and home for hot chocolate just to talk and the topic was almost invariably about how i am a smart girl and shouldn't believe in superstition.

i don't think that there is a secret organization out there trying to convert everybody to atheism (if that even makes sense), you're right, that sounds to me like fundamentalists trying to scare people into their position. but i think academics attracts a certain kind of personality and that such people can become a little carried away in their thoughts, especially about God.

que Dios te bendiga

 

[Dannager]

hola,

i went to private and boarding schools so i'm not familiar with this... but are public schools as bad as people here make them to be? i feel like there is a hidden accusation of agenda and propaganda behind some of the criticisms of public schools, specifically as it relates to evolution...

que Dios te bendiga

From my personal experience they aren't bad at all. In high school I was exposed to evolution (though I never took an actual biology course), and at the university level I've taken classes dealing with evolutionary theory. In both cases, the instructor acknowledged that people might disagree with what the class has to say, but that the evidence overwhelmingly favors evolution and that's what is going to be taught.

 

[Snowbunny]

that seems exceedingly reasonable... incidentally what do you think about the quality of public education?

 

[Dannager]

that seems exceedingly reasonable... incidentally what do you think about the quality of public education?

I grew up in an area where public school education was phenomenally good. I've also worked with public school districts that are extremely troubled. I don't think my experiences could be said to represent the average American high school career. On the whole - and from what little I know - the public school system appears to work reasonably well. I will probably send my children through the public school system in an area with excellent schools.

 

[Snowbunny]

I grew up in an area where public school education was phenomenally good. I've also worked with public school districts that are extremely troubled. I don't think my experiences could be said to represent the average American high school career. On the whole - and from what little I know - the public school system appears to work reasonably well. I will probably send my children through the public school system in an area with excellent schools.

do you think public school and the peers, learning environment etc had an effect on you in terms of what you believe morally and religiously?

 

[Dannager]

do you think public school and the peers, learning environment etc had an effect on you in terms of what you believe morally and religiously?

Yes, definitely. The best thing public school does is offer real exposure to other people and their beliefs. This chance to put ourselves in the shoes of others really helps moderate some of the more extreme positions we might hold.

 

[juvenissun]

From my personal experience they aren't bad at all. In high school I was exposed to evolution (though I never took an actual biology course), and at the university level I've taken classes dealing with evolutionary theory. In both cases, the instructor acknowledged that people might disagree with what the class has to say, but that the evidence overwhelmingly favors evolution and that's what is going to be taught.

I think you did not have any chance to learn in depth what the "acknowledgement" your teacher made is about, until much later time.

A boy grew up in Muslim culture would have 80% chance (do not ask me for data !!! I do not have it. It could be 90%) to have bias in favor of Islam during his whole life, even he came to America or Europe later and exposed to other cultures. That does not mean Islam is more correct than Christianity.

 

[Dannager]

I think you did not have any chance to learn in depth what the "acknowledgement" your teacher made is about, until much later time.

A boy grew up in Muslim culture would have 80% chance (do not ask me for data !!! I do not have it. It could be 90%) to have bias in favor of Islam during his whole life, even he came to America or Europe later and exposed to other cultures. That does not mean Islam is more correct than Christianity.

Nor does it make Christianity more correct than Islam.

But we're talking about a body of empirical evidence, not a popularity contest. Evolutionary theory isn't right because it's accepted by all the scientists. It's accepted by all the scientists because it's right.