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Creationism Curiosity

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Hi friends. :wave:

I'm afraid I may not have been too terribly fair in the past in my treatment of the claims of intelligent design or creationism. I'd like to take this time to offer a challenge of sorts, for those who feel ID or creationism is a valid scientific view of the origin and diversification of life.

Evaluating a hypothesis' claims via the criteria of adequacy is the way in which scientists determine its scientific veracity. It is also the way in which a decision is made between two competing ideas that already meet it--that is, which meet the criteria more fully. The criteria are as follows:

Scope: is the hypothesis able to fully describe the diversity of our observations? If all other criteria are met equally between two competing hypotheses, which is able to predict more of what we observe in the natural world? (Think Einstein vs. Newton)

Simplicity/Parsimony: is the hypothesis as simple as possible to explain our observations, and does it refrain from invoking unnecessary entities to explain what we observe? (Think Ptolemy vs. Copernicus in terms of retrograde motion)

Conservatism: does the implications of the hypothesis maintain current established principles (that we would have no other reason to "throw out" except to accommodate the new theory)? To put it in the negative, does acceptance of the hypothesis require us to completely revamp all of our background knowledge for the mere purpose of accommodating it? (Think Von Donikin's UFO Pyramid hypothesis vs. all accepted Pyramid archeology)

Convergence: does the evidence cited to support the hypothesis converge with other types of evidence or evidence from other fields? To put it in the negative, must any established line of evidence be ignored in order for the hypothesis to remain plausible? (Think Holocaust Revisionism vs. all eyewitness, testimonial, census, physical and historical evidence that suggests the Holocaust did in fact occur)

Testability: does the hypothesis make predictions that are able to be tested? (Think novel predictions vs. ad-hoc hypotheses and other various non-testable hypotheses)

Fruitfulness: can the hypothesis offer successful predictions that tell us something new about the natural world? (Darwin's ideas predicted the necessity of a biological mechanism by which traits are inherited that also must allow for their diversification--DNA)

I would be interested in hearing how ID or creationism meets these criteria and thus should be considered scientific, as many claim. After this, I would be interested in hearing your take on why it meets these criteria better than evolution by natural selection. We can even discuss whether or not evolution meets these criteria as well, if you'd like--I encourage those in support of evolution to offer their arguments.

Thanks. :thumbsup:
 
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Ectezus

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Nice post, but good luck finding a scientific creationist. :D

Long discussions on a certain subject often result in the creationists admitting intelligent design or creationism is not really science. So my money is on the "We can't prove god through science, he is everywhere, it's so obvious, just look around you!!" argument.

- Ectezus
 
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Washington

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Yeah, creationists have pretty much abandoned the idea of supporting creationism with any science. Even the once popular Creation Science movement in creationism seldom if ever tried to support creationism with science, but rather tried to use science to disprove evolution. So, like Ectezus, I doubt if you'll find the response you're looking for. "God did it" will probably be as close as you'll get.
 
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juvenissun

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Yeah, creationists have pretty much abandoned the idea of supporting creationism with any science. Even the once popular Creation Science movement in creationism seldom if ever tried to support creationism with science, but rather tried to use science to disprove evolution. So, like Ectezus, I doubt if you'll find the response you're looking for. "God did it" will probably be as close as you'll get.

Scientific evidence for creation? Please take Logic 101, then ask again.
 
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Scientific evidence for creation? Please take Logic 101, then ask again.

Please keep in mind that this isn't a claim offered by materialists--it is one that is still being offered by many creationists. Maybe I'm just bitter, but I got a little upset when I heard that the shiny new Creation Museum 25 minutes away from me was bringing in more visitors than my beloved Cincinnati Museum of Natural History across the river--And you can bet the average Creation Museum visitor buys their claims to speak with the authority of science. If this challenge cannot be met, then so be it. It'll serve as some consciousness raising as to what science actually is, and more importantly, what popular appeals to established scientific views haven't earned the right to be considered a contender.
 
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Split Rock

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Please keep in mind that this isn't a claim offered by materialists--it is one that is still being offered by many creationists. Maybe I'm just bitter, but I got a little upset when I heard that the shiny new Creation Museum 25 minutes away from me was bringing in more visitors than my beloved Cincinnati Museum of Natural History across the river--And you can bet the average Creation Museum visitor buys their claims to speak with the authority of science. If this challenge cannot be met, then so be it. It'll serve as some consciousness raising as to what science actually is, and more importantly, what popular appeals to established scientific views haven't earned the right to be considered a contender.

You are so lucky to live near The Creation Museum! What a sad waste of millions of dollars.

You should consider going there if they ever have any free admission day, and ask the people there questions they have no answers for.
 
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Matthewj1985

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Just FYI, there is no such thing as an intellectually honest creationist who has a REAL (as in not mail order) degree in biology, they are all "evolutionist" now. I mean you can only stare fact in the face and say "NOT LISTENING" for so long.
 
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juvenissun

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Please keep in mind that this isn't a claim offered by materialists--it is one that is still being offered by many creationists.

Miscommunication.

Creationist said: scientific evidence (which suggests) creation.
Materialist said: scientific evidence (which proves) creation.

The "scientific evidence for creation" simply does not make it clear enough. There are tons of scientific evidences that suggest creation.
 
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Hespera

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Miscommunication.

Creationist said: scientific evidence (which suggests) creation.
Materialist said: scientific evidence (which proves) creation.

The "scientific evidence for creation" simply does not make it clear enough. There are tons of scientific evidences that suggest creation.


You always have peculiar definitions for things. Explain what you mean by "creation".


If you mean there exists "tons" of evidence that "proves" the universe was brought into being by an intelligence of some sort...lets see it.
 
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Ectezus

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There are tons of scientific evidences that suggest creation.

Evidence suggests creation? Suggest...?
Why not just say "Evidence proofs creation"? Oh wait, that's because you KNOW that would be a false statement.

The words evidence & 'suggest' don't mix well together in the same sentence. Evidence proves or disproves something.

But please, if there are tons of scientific evidences that 'suggest' creation according to you, could you give us a list with a few examples?
Please keep in mind you said scientific evidence so it better be scientific.

- Ectezus
 
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Matthewj1985

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Miscommunication.

Creationist said: scientific evidence (which suggests) creation.
Materialist said: scientific evidence (which proves) creation.

The "scientific evidence for creation" simply does not make it clear enough. There are tons of scientific evidences that suggest creation.

Then you guys are some of the laziest people on earth. If you have what you claim then PUBLISH IN PEER REVIEWED JOURNALS.
 
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Hespera

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Then you guys are some of the laziest people on earth. If you have what you claim then PUBLISH IN PEER REVIEWED JOURNALS.


Nope. They have that covered. There is a worldwide conspiracy that wont allow anyone to publish anything in a scientific journal it it dont toe the scientific ideological line on creation / evolution.

I heard about that.
 
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Hespera

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Evidence suggests creation? Suggest...?
Why not just say "Evidence proofs creation"? Oh wait, that's because you KNOW that would be a false statement.

The words evidence & 'suggest' don't mix well together in the same sentence. Evidence proves or disproves something.

But please, if there are tons of scientific evidences that 'suggest' creation according to you, could you give us a list with a few examples?
Please keep in mind you said scientific evidence so it better be scientific.

- Ectezus

Suggestions are for the suggestible?
 
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Matthewj1985

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Nope. They have that covered. There is a worldwide conspiracy that wont allow anyone to publish anything in a scientific journal it it dont toe the scientific ideological line on creation / evolution.

I heard about that.

I have too and when I see it, that person gets lumpped in with the rest of the crazies like the flat earthers and the 9/11 "truthers".
 
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Cabal

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Miscommunication.

Creationist said: scientific evidence (which suggests) creation.
Materialist said: scientific evidence (which proves) creation.

The "scientific evidence for creation" simply does not make it clear enough. There are tons of scientific evidences that suggest creation.

Then you guys are some of the laziest people on earth. If you have what you claim then PUBLISH IN PEER REVIEWED JOURNALS.

Nope. They have that covered. There is a worldwide conspiracy that wont allow anyone to publish anything in a scientific journal it it dont toe the scientific ideological line on creation / evolution.

I heard about that.

Yup, it's evidence which only suggests, but doesn't prove beyond reasonable doubt, and yet it's clearly so much better that it should be taught in schools.

And yet "BAWWWWW CONSPIRACY *hides wedge document*"

Urgh....:doh:
 
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juvenissun

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Evidence suggests creation? Suggest...?
Why not just say "Evidence proofs creation"? Oh wait, that's because you KNOW that would be a false statement.

The words evidence & 'suggest' don't mix well together in the same sentence. Evidence proves or disproves something.

But please, if there are tons of scientific evidences that 'suggest' creation according to you, could you give us a list with a few examples?
Please keep in mind you said scientific evidence so it better be scientific.

- Ectezus

Anything we do not know is a suggestion of creation.
So you know there are many many.
 
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juvenissun

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Yup, it's evidence which only suggests, but doesn't prove beyond reasonable doubt, and yet it's clearly so much better that it should be taught in schools.

And yet "BAWWWWW CONSPIRACY *hides wedge document*"

Urgh....:doh:

Most undergraduate students today (at least in US) are quite stupid. They think everything must have a standard answer, and they have no ability of asking questions (and they voted for Obama!) I guess it should be credited to the teaching of evolution and the so-called real science.
 
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