Creation School. Do we need one?

[Loudmouth]

Including the observations behind the Big Bang theory?

Including those. The COBE observations have been repeated by the WMAP observations. Past surveys of type Ia supernovae can be repeated by observing new type Ia supernovae. The Tolman surface brightness test can be repeated on new galaxies. All of the observations underpinning the current Big Bang model can be repeated.

 

[AV1611VET]

Including those. The COBE observations have been repeated by the WMAP observations. Past surveys of type Ia supernovae can be repeated by observing new type Ia supernovae. The Tolman surface brightness test can be repeated on new galaxies. All of the observations underpinning the current Big Bang model can be repeated.

Are you telling me that the primordial atom expansion, from which the Big Bang theory hangs its reputation, has been repeated?

 

[Loudmouth]

Are you telling me that the primordial atom expansion, from which the Big Bang theory hangs its reputation, has been repeated?

You don't repeat theories. You repeat observations.

 

[AV1611VET]

You don't repeat theories. You repeat observations.

So then are you telling me that the primordial atom expansion, from whih the Big Bang theory hangs its reputation, has been 1) observed, and 2) repeated?

 

[Loudmouth]

So then are you telling me that the primordial atom expansion, from whih the Big Bang theory hangs its reputation, has been 1) observed, and 2) repeated?

You don't observe theories. Theories explain the observations. Can you show me the step where it says, "Observe the theory/hypothesis"?

 

[AV1611VET]

You don't observe theories.

This conversation is getting out-of-hand for me.

Suffice it to say, I don't believe those who tell me, "All observations must be repeatable."

 

[Loudmouth]

This conversation is getting out-of-hand for me.

Suffice it to say, I don't believe those who tell me, "All observations must be repeatable."

You are the one not telling the truth. You keep swapping out "observation" for "theory". Observations are repeatable. I showed you the observations that are repeatable. You don't get to change it around and demand that the theory be repeatable. Theory and observation ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

 

[AV1611VET]

You are the one not telling the truth. You keep swapping out "observation" for "theory". Observations are repeatable. I showed you the observations that are repeatable. You don't get to change it around and demand that the theory be repeatable. Theory and observation ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

Are we done, now?

 

[TLK Valentine]

Are we done, now?

Clearly you are -- you've been caught red-handed and called out.

 

[Loudmouth]

Are we done, now?

We aren't done until you admit that theories and observations are two different things.

 

[AV1611VET]

We aren't done until you admit that theories and observations are two different things.

Theories and observations are two different things.

 

[Blue Wren]

I have no problem respecting what others believe, Blue Wren.

The reason I asked you about respect, for the beliefs of others, is because you wrote:

It has helped me stand up against so much and weed out lies and twisted belief systems.

How is calling other belief systems, twisted, and saying you have to weed out lies from them, showing tolerance & respect? You still, have not answered the direct question, that I asked you. You deflected, as you commonly do. What belief systems, do you think are twisted? What lies, have you weeded out? Evolution, it is not a belief system, no. Creationists, on here, some have claimed, that it is, but, it's not, no.

I'm actually way more tolerant then many others I've encountered especially online. I've not used any so called methods.

It is not a competition, for who is more tolerant, than others, on the internet. Your method, is that you won't directly say that something is twisted, or a lie, no. You'll allude to it. You write, constantly, about how finite & fallible, you think science is, how you think, that "evolutionists" are arrogant, prideful in their own eyes. It's really, not so arrogant, for Christians who believe differently than you do, in their interpretation of Genesis, to accept established science, no. Not just, with evolution, but also, with immunisation, GMOs, geology, ect, ect, ect. Science, it's not a problem, not even an issue, for most Christians, no. Your method, also, is to say that faith, can dismiss whatever evidence, you disagree with, or find an emotional reason, mother's intuition about vaccines, ect. Passive aggressiveness & haughtiness, they are not true tolerance, no.

I have only stated what I believe and have defended my beliefs like anyone else. Just because what I believe does not line up with what you believe doesn't make it any less true.

There are beliefs, and then are facts, yes? Beliefs, based on faith, they do not need proof, no. Facts, they do. Just because other what Christians believe, does not line up, with what you believe, doesn't make it any less true, for us.

Quite frankly, I don't think you are trying to understand anything. You are only pointing out how you think creationism is wrong. Point duly noted. Thanks for your opinion.

Where did I point out, in that post, that I thought creationism was wrong? It's not a matter of opinion, about whether, the world was created, in six literal days, 6000 years ago, no. You can have the belief, that it was, just as you can have the belief in whatever, but there are facts, that disprove those beliefs, and people, who accept those facts, aren't putting science, above God, or anything, of the sort, no. They are not deserving, of being made to feel, their faith, is compromised, or less sincere, than yours.

I gave you, an incredible amount of time, trying to help you, when you came asking, for help, about vaccines. Hours. It was all, for nothing, as no matter what, if facts, didn't match, what you wished to believe, it was rejected. The same, I think, is true, with you, for evolution, and other parts, of science. I have, made an effort, to understand, your belief in creationism. I've seen, no true effort, from you, in return, for anything. True niceness, it's sincere.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

God has not created rifts; people and the world create rifts.

The ideal way for children to be taught is in and among their Christian parents and brethren. In ancient times, Hebrew boys were taught the Torah verbatim, and maybe some Hebrew girls as well. All Hebrews were expected to know the law. There was forbidden and approved literature. There was ONE law for the Hebrew and the strangers who lived amongst them.

Greek and Roman thought brought in scientific principles and schooling. Christians today are largely and mostly inundated with atheistic thought and education. Children who attend public school experience this on a daily basis for 13 years.

It seems to me it is incumbent on Christians to do whatever they can to combat this so that our children, and our descendants, know God! We should know the Bible well enough to be able to teach it to our children and speak of it throughout the day [as stated in the daily recitation of the Shema]. That means having a working knowledge of creation, the law, and the gospel.

As more Christians fall away from this knowledge, private Christian schools become more necessary. Ideally, children would go to cooperative homeschools where their education lines up with their daily life and ministry.

 

[Saricharity]

 

[Saricharity]

The reason I asked you about respect, for the beliefs of others, is because you wrote:



How is calling other belief systems, twisted, and saying you have to weed out lies from them, showing tolerance & respect? You still, have not answered the direct question, that I asked you. You deflected, as you commonly do. What belief systems, do you think are twisted? What lies, have you weeded out? Evolution, it is not a belief system, no. Creationists, on here, some have claimed, that it is, but, it's not, no.



It is not a competition, for who is more tolerant, than others, on the internet. Your method, is that you won't directly say that something is twisted, or a lie, no. You'll allude to it. You write, constantly, about how finite & fallible, you think science is, how you think, that "evolutionists" are arrogant, prideful in their own eyes. It's really, not so arrogant, for Christians who believe differently than you do, in their interpretation of Genesis, to accept established science, no. Not just, with evolution, but also, with immunisation, GMOs, geology, ect, ect, ect. Science, it's not a problem, not even an issue, for most Christians, no. Your method, also, is to say that faith, can dismiss whatever evidence, you disagree with, or find an emotional reason, mother's intuition about vaccines, ect. Passive aggressiveness & haughtiness, they are not true tolerance, no.



There are beliefs, and then are facts, yes? Beliefs, based on faith, they do not need proof, no. Facts, they do. Just because other what Christians believe, does not line up, with what you believe, doesn't make it any less true, for us.



Where did I point out, in that post, that I thought creationism was wrong? It's not a matter of opinion, about whether, the world was created, in six literal days, 6000 years ago, no. You can have the belief, that it was, just as you can have the belief in whatever, but there are facts, that disprove those beliefs, and people, who accept those facts, aren't putting science, above God, or anything, of the sort, no. They are not deserving, of being made to feel, their faith, is compromised, or less sincere, than yours.

I gave you, an incredible amount of time, trying to help you, when you came asking, for help, about vaccines. Hours. It was all, for nothing, as no matter what, if facts, didn't match, what you wished to believe, it was rejected. The same, I think, is true, with you, for evolution, and other parts, of science. I have, made an effort, to understand, your belief in creationism. I've seen, no true effort, from you, in return, for anything. True niceness, it's sincere.

Thanks for your post. Have a wonderful day.

 

[Blue Wren]

God has not created rifts; people and the world create rifts.

The ideal way for children to be taught is in and among their Christian parents and brethren. In ancient times, Hebrew boys were taught the Torah verbatim, and maybe some Hebrew girls as well. All Hebrews were expected to know the law. There was forbidden and approved literature. There was ONE law for the Hebrew and the strangers who lived amongst them.

Greek and Roman thought brought in scientific principles and schooling. Christians today are largely and mostly inundated with atheistic thought and education. Children who attend public school experience this on a daily basis for 13 years.

It seems to me it is incumbent on Christians to do whatever they can to combat this so that our children, and our descendants, know God! We should know the Bible well enough to be able to teach it to our children and speak of it throughout the day [as stated in the daily recitation of the Shema]. That means having a working knowledge of creation, the law, and the gospel.

As more Christians fall away from this knowledge, private Christian schools become more necessary. Ideally, children would go to cooperative homeschools where their education lines up with their daily life and ministry.

I agree, that God has never created rifts. It is people, who create rifts, with others, yes.

I grew up, in a very secularised society (Sweden), and still never felt, my education was atheistic in nature, no. I also, was encouraged, with my religious beliefs. There's been, more friction, on this place, than what I've experienced, in person, in my times, in Sweden, the United States & now, in Japan. I think, that is the nature, perhaps, of internet communications. It's different, than in person.

 

[The Cadet]

It's amazing how much power is put into the hands of science which is completely fallible and finite.

I could say something along the lines of "we have no reason to believe that the bible is anything but fallible and finite or that any theology actually is true", but you know what? I'm not going to bother with that line of argumentation. I'm just gonna go to this one instead:

You know what's similarly amazing? How much power is gotten out of science. Place a civilization powered by the fruits of scientific inquiry in a war against a civilization that is ostensibly pre-scientific or anti-science, and the result will be a bloodbath Yahweh could be proud of - complete and utter destruction. This was the case back when the biggest technological advancements were "let's use short stabbing swords and shields in a tactical position", and it's doubly the case now that science has delivered us the power to wipe entire continents off the face of the planet.

The computer you are typing on is a wonder of scientific advancement, of understanding our world and putting that understanding to work. The house I live in (can't make assumptions about you but I think it's fair to say that quite a bit of this applies) was built in accordance with scientific standards to ensure that it would be energy-efficient, warm in the winter, cool in the summer, and last for a while.

When I go out, I step onto an advanced machine that ferries me from point A to point B faster than the fastest horse. My job involves tending to advanced machines which mass-produce small plastic parts for other useful tools, an advancement made single-handedly possible by the fruits of the scientific method.

Then, I go home via the same machine, and eat food made bountiful beyond the dreams of our ancestors thanks to modern farming, fertilization, and breeding techniques and accessible by the same token.

WE. HAVE. BEEN. TO. THE. MOON.

You know why people put their trust in science? Because science works. Because it truly and demonstrably improves every single aspect of our lives from the tiniest minutia of not needing to dig a hole to take a crap to the massive overarching power of modern agriculture to feed an exponentially growing populous.

What's amazing to me is that to this day and age, there are still people who, while quite obviously soaking in the benefits of science (as evidence by you posting on this forum) are willing to say things like what you just said. The exact same science that built the lives we live in the west is responsible for our understanding of the cosmos and our own history, and the understanding that the bible is not and cannot be literally true.

Clearly you are -- you've been caught red-handed and called out.

We aren't done until you admit that theories and observations are two different things.

Why do you two keep engaging him? Seriously, I don't get it.

Greek and Roman thought brought in scientific principles and schooling. Christians today are largely and mostly inundated with atheistic thought and education. Children who attend public school experience this on a daily basis for 13 years.

[...]

It seems to me it is incumbent on Christians to do whatever they can to combat this

Everything I said to Jennae? It applies doubly here. Because you're not just dismissing the collective knowledge of countless generations that have built the cushy life you live, you're saying we need to actively destroy this knowledge. It boggles the mind why you think it's not hypocritical at all to sit on your computer and type these words.

 

[AV1611VET]

Why do you two keep engaging him? Seriously, I don't get it.

One man's blacklist is another man's whitelist, eh?

 

[TLK Valentine]

One man's blacklist is another man's whitelist, eh?

Some people need a spotlight to help them scurry away.

[VERSE=John 3:20,KJV]For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.[/VERSE]

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

I could say something along the lines of "we have no reason to believe that the bible is anything but fallible and finite or that any theology actually is true", but you know what? I'm not going to bother with that line of argumentation. I'm just gonna go to this one instead:

You know what's similarly amazing? How much power is gotten out of science. Place a civilization powered by the fruits of scientific inquiry in a war against a civilization that is ostensibly pre-scientific or anti-science, and the result will be a bloodbath Yahweh could be proud of - complete and utter destruction. This was the case back when the biggest technological advancements were "let's use short stabbing swords and shields in a tactical position", and it's doubly the case now that science has delivered us the power to wipe entire continents off the face of the planet.

The computer you are typing on is a wonder of scientific advancement, of understanding our world and putting that understanding to work. The house I live in (can't make assumptions about you but I think it's fair to say that quite a bit of this applies) was built in accordance with scientific standards to ensure that it would be energy-efficient, warm in the winter, cool in the summer, and last for a while.

When I go out, I step onto an advanced machine that ferries me from point A to point B faster than the fastest horse. My job involves tending to advanced machines which mass-produce small plastic parts for other useful tools, an advancement made single-handedly possible by the fruits of the scientific method.

Then, I go home via the same machine, and eat food made bountiful beyond the dreams of our ancestors thanks to modern farming, fertilization, and breeding techniques and accessible by the same token.

WE. HAVE. BEEN. TO. THE. MOON.

You know why people put their trust in science? Because science works. Because it truly and demonstrably improves every single aspect of our lives from the tiniest minutia of not needing to dig a hole to take a crap to the massive overarching power of modern agriculture to feed an exponentially growing populous.

What's amazing to me is that to this day and age, there are still people who, while quite obviously soaking in the benefits of science (as evidence by you posting on this forum) are willing to say things like what you just said. The exact same science that built the lives we live in the west is responsible for our understanding of the cosmos and our own history, and the understanding that the bible is not and cannot be literally true.





Why do you two keep engaging him? Seriously, I don't get it.



Everything I said to Jennae? It applies doubly here. Because you're not just dismissing the collective knowledge of countless generations that have built the cushy life you live, you're saying we need to actively destroy this knowledge. It boggles the mind why you think it's not hypocritical at all to sit on your computer and type these words.

I did not say destroy. But use it with discretion, to make sure God's will be done with it.

Man tends to think if he can imagine it, make it, and do it, he should. The Bible has countless examples where that is not true. God wants us to live within His boundaries He has created for us, namely to leave life and the knowledge of the realm of God to Him.

Modern, scientific thought is antithesis to this idea. Science (originated with Babylon and Egypt, and furthered by Greece) has always sought to push man's boundaries. That is what it does!

We would not have most of the problems we suffer from today if we lived within the bounds God has for us.