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Creation of Eve (TE conundrum)

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gluadys

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California Tim said:
Mythology is by definition fiction. Just what is it you say it is then?

Actually, no, it's not. Or rather that is one of its more modern meanings.

All mythology when first told was and is believed to be true. Sometimes it turns out that it is not true. And in modern parlance we have come to attach the word "myth" only to those myths that are not true.

But myth is a bit like scientific theory. In some ways, in pre-scientific societies, it functions like a scientific theory. Its purpose is to explain why things are as they are. And just like a scientific theory, it can be falsified by contrary evidence.

So some myths are false, but some are true. And some are believed to be true, but may turn out to be false.

Myth is not intended to be fiction and should not be read as fiction. But it is not history either, though it may refer to history. Often, in fact, history is read through the lens of myth. In ancient times, this was pretty well universal. And even today, a lot of history is told mythologically.

In literature it is a genre of writing with specific characteristics. Some of those characteristics are:

-a myth deals with the action of God/gods
-a myth may (but does not always) explain some natural or social phenomenon (e.g. why it is hard to keep weeds out of a field or why women labour in childbirth or why men rule women in the household and in society).
-a myth provides the people who believe in it with a common sense of who they are and where they came from and what their destiny is.
 
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California Tim

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LewisWildermuth said:
Tim, if the Bible must be a literal and non-contradictory document...

Which way did Judas die? There are two versions given, which is the true one and which should be removed as a lie?

Which liniage of Jesus is correct? Which is a lie? Remember neither of the ones in the NT match up fully with the linages in the OT. So which one do we toss out so there will be no contradictions?
Oftentimes two witnesses give different pieces of the same puzzle, which, when taken together give a complete picture. Do you dismiss that possibility simply because this is a Biblical account? It is puzzling to me why so many jump all over any chance to discredit the reliability of the Spirit-Inspired Word rather than contemplate a difficult passage or passages. So, for your benefit, here's a very brief overview of Judas account: He hung himself and died. The body broke loose (or slipped from the noose) and landed on the rocks whereupon it split open. Neither account alone is complete and neither is a lie or misrepresentation, but together form the whole picture.
 
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Vance

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1. But most YEC's say that the meaning of all Scripture is plain and obvious, your position seems to be that it is not, but instead needs interpretive efforts.

2. Are you saying that there are no factual contradictions in Scripture?

3. Do you know how recent the "strict literalist" movement is?
 
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California Tim

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Vance said:
1. But most YEC's say that the meaning of all Scripture is plain and obvious, your position seems to be that it is not, but instead needs interpretive efforts.

2. Are you saying that there are no factual contradictions in Scripture?

3. Do you know how recent the "strict literalist" movement is?
Shall we just start a new thread in the GA forum to discuss whether or not the Bible is in fact the inspired and infallible word of God? This thread is not about contradictions or presumed error in the Holy Bible. I'm sure quite a few agnostics will gleefully join in with my fellow Christians here who call it's reliability into question. Why deprive them the joy?
 
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Vance

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California Tim said:
Shall we just start a new thread in the GA forum to discuss whether or not the Bible is in fact the inspired and infallible word of God? This thread is not about contradictions or presumed error in the Holy Bible. I'm sure quite a few agnostics will gleefully join in with my fellow Christians here who call it's reliability into question. Why deprive them the joy?

Oh, I DO think it is the infallible and inspired Word of God. I just accept that it can also have historical inconsistencies and internal contradictions on historical events. Inerrancy has very little to do with historical accuracy, which is a MAJOR point for this forum.
 
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California Tim

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Vance said:
Oh, I DO think it is the infallible and inspired Word of God. I just accept that it can also have historical inconsistencies and internal contradictions on historical events. Inerrancy has very little to do with historical accuracy, which is a MAJOR point for this forum.
Is a "jot" or "tittle" a punctuation reference to spoken or written communication - in your opinion?
 
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Vance

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No, I think that Jesus is saying that the entire law is still valid, in His fulfillment of it. To read it as just a reference to the literal punctuation marks needed in Hebrew to read the text (the jot and the tittle) would a over-literalism of a type that I think you would even shun.
 
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California Tim

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Vance said:
No, I think that Jesus is saying that the entire law is still valid, in His fulfillment of it. To read it as just a reference to the literal punctuation marks needed in Hebrew to read the text (the jot and the tittle) would a over-literalism of a type that I think you would even shun.
Jewish scribes who copied the MT (Massoretic Text) of the Hebrew Bible scrolls paid the greatest attention to the minutiae of detail and such marks attached to each consonant throughout the entire text. They even numbered every letter, word, sentence, paragraph, chapter, section, and scroll to insure that the total equalled that of the text being copied before allowing it to enter the holy synagogue.

The meaning of the passage is very clear. Not even the smallest letter or even its decorative spur will ever disappear from the "God Breathed" Word until all is fulfilled. In fact when heaven and earth are replaced by a new heaven and earth, the Word of the Lord will have accomplished its purpose and will be fulfilled in every detail even to the very letter.
http://www.bible-history.com/backd2/jot_tittle.html
 
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Vance

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Yes, I agree. Every single truth contained in Scripture will remain true and inerrant forever. You are not saying that this refers to the actual, specific words themselves, which have changed, been translated, edited, etc, over thousands of years, are you? If so, then you are further down the "strict literalist" slide than I expected.
 
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California Tim

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Vance said:
Yes, I agree. Every single truth contained in Scripture will remain true and inerrant forever. You are not saying that this refers to the actual, specific words themselves, which have changed, been translated, edited, etc, over thousands of years, are you? If so, then you are further down the "strict literalist" slide than I expected.
Perhaps another, more aptly stated position on the matter will clarify my similar views. Here are some exceprts and the link to the whole document:

The authority of Scripture is a key issue for the Christian Church in
this and every age. Those who profess faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and
Savior are called to show the reality of their discipleship by humbly
and faithfully obeying God's written Word. To stray from Scripture in
faith or conduct is disloyalty to our Master. Recognition of the total
truth and trustworthiness of Holy Scripture is essential to a full grasp
and adequate confession of its authority.

Holy Scripture, being God's own Word, written by men prepared and
superintended by His Spirit, is of infallible divine authority in all
matters upon which it touches: It is to be believed, as God's
instruction, in all that it affirms; obeyed, as God's command, in all
that it requires; embraced, as God's pledge, in all that it promises.

Being wholly and verbally God-given, Scripture is without error or
fault in all its teaching, no less in what it states about God's acts in
creation, about the events of world history, and about its own literary
origins under God, than in its witness to God's saving grace in
individual lives.

The authority of Scripture is inescapably impaired if this total
divine inerrancy is in any way limited of disregarded, or made relative
to a view of truth contrary to the Bible's own; and such lapses bring
serious loss to both the individual and the Church.

We deny that the Scriptures receive their authority from the Church,
tradition, or any other human source.

We deny that the Bible is merely a witness to revelation, or only
becomes revelation in encounter, or depends on the responses of men for
its validity.

We deny that human language is so limited by our creatureliness that
it is rendered inadequate as a vehicle for divine revelation. We further
deny that the corruption of human culture and language through sin has
thwarted God's work of inspiration.

We deny that later revelation, which may fulfill earlier revelation,
ever corrects of contradicts it. We further deny that any normative
revelation has been given since the completion of the New Testament
writings.

We affirm that the whole of Scripture and all its parts, down to the
very words of the original, were given by divine inspiration.

We deny that inspiration can be reduced to human insight, or to
heightened states of consciousness of any kind.

We affirm that God in His work of inspiration utilized the
distinctive personalities and literary styles of the writers whom He had
chosen and prepared.

We deny that the finitude or falseness of these writers, by necessity
or otherwise, introduced distortion or falsehood into God's Word.

We affirm that inspiration, strictly speaking, applies only to the
autographic text of Scripture, which in the providence of God can be
ascertained from available manuscripts with great accuracy. We further
affirm that copies and translations of Scripture are the Word of God to
the extent that they faithfully represent the original.

We affirm that Scripture, having been given by divine inspiration, is
infallible, so that, far from misleading us, it is true and reliable in
all the matters it addresses.

We deny that it is possible for the Bible to be at the same time
infallible and errant in its assertions. Infallibility and inerrancy may
be distinguished but not separated.

We deny that Biblical infallibility and inerrancy are limited to
spiritual, religious, or redemptive themes, exclusive of assertions in
the fields of history and science. We further deny that scientific
hypotheses about earth history may properly be used to overturn the
teaching of Scripture on creation and the flood.


We deny that it is proper to evaluate Scripture according to
standards of truth and error that are alien to its usage or purpose. We
further deny that inerrancy is negated by Biblical phenomena such as a
lack of modern technical precision, irregularities of grammar or
spelling, observational descriptions of nature, the reporting of
falsehoods, the use of hyperbole and round numbers, the topical
arrangement of metrical, variant selections of material in parallel
accounts, or the use of free citations.

We deny that inerrancy is a doctrine invented by scholastic
Protestantism, or is a reactionary position postulated in response to
negative higher criticism.

We affirm that the Holy Spirit bears witness to the Scriptures,
assuring believers of the truthfulness of God's written Word.

We affirm that the text of Scripture is to be interpreted by
grammatico-historical exegesis, taking account of its literary forms and
devices, and that Scripture is to interpret Scripture.

We affirm that a confession of the full authority, infallibility and
inerrancy of Scripture is vital to a sound understanding of the whole of
the Christian faith. We further affirm that such confession should lead
to increasing conformity to the image of Christ.

We deny that such confession is necessary for salvation. However, we
further deny that inerrancy can be rejected without grave consequences,
both to the individual and to the Church.


'Infallible' signifies the quality of neither misleading nor being
misled and so safeguards in categorical terms the truth that Holy
Scripture is a sure, safe and reliable rule and guide in all matters.

Similarly, 'inerrant' signifies the quality of being free from all
falsehood or mistake and so safeguards the truth that Holy Scripture is
entirely true and trustworthy in all its assertions.

We affirm that canonical Scripture should always be interpreted on
the basis that it is infallible and inerrant. However, in determining
what the God-taught writer is asserting in each passage, we must pay the
most careful attention to its claims and character as a human
production. In inspiration, God utilized the culture and conventions of
his penman's milieu, a milieu that God controls in His sovereign
providence; it is misinterpretation to imagine otherwise.

So history must be treated as history, poetry as poetry, hyperbole
and metaphor as hyperbole and metaphor, generalization and approximation
as what they are, and so forth.
Differences between literary conventions
in Bible times and in ours must also be observed: Since, for instance,
nonchronological narration and imprecise citation were conventional and
acceptable and violated no expectations in those days, we must not
regard these things as faults when we find them in Bible writers. When
total precision of a particular kind was not expected nor aimed at, it
is no error not to have achieved it. Scripture is inerrant, not in the
sense of being absolutely precise by modern standards, but in the sense
of making good its claims and achieving that measure of focused truth at
which its authors aimed.

The truthfulness of Scripture is not negated by the appearance in it
of irregularities of grammar or spelling, phenomenal descriptions of
nature, reports of false statements (for example, the lies of Satan), or
seeming discrepancies between one passage and another. It is not right
to set the so-called "phenomena" of Scripture against the teaching of
Scripture about itself. Apparent inconsistencies should not be ignored.
Solution of them, where this can be convincingly achieved, will
encourage our faith, and where for the present no convincing solution is
at hand we shall significantly honor God by trusting His assurance that
His Word is true, despite these appearances, and by maintaining our
confidence that one day they will be seen to have been illusions.


Since the Renaissance, and more particularly since the Enlightenment,
world views have been developed that involve skepticism about basic
Christian tenets. Such are the agnosticism that denies that God is
knowable, the rationalism that denies that He is incomprehensible, the
idealism that denies that He is transcendent, and the existentialism
that denies rationality in His relationships with us. When these un- and
anti-Biblical principles seep into men's theologies at presuppositional
level, as today they frequently do, faithful interpretation of Holy
Scripture becomes impossible.

Since God has nowhere promised an inerrant transmission of Scripture,
it is necessary to affirm that only the autographic text of the original
documents was inspired and to maintain the need of textual criticism as
a means of detecting any slips that may have crept into the text in the
course of its transmission.
The verdict of this science, however, is
that the Hebrew and Greek text appears to be amazingly well preserved,
so that we are amply justified in affirming, with the Westminster
Confession, a singular providence of God in this matter and in declaring
that the authority of Scripture is in no way jeopardized by the fact
that the copies we possess are not entirely error-free.

We affirm that what Scripture says, God says. May He be glorified.
Amen and Amen.​
http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/history/chicago.stm.txt
 
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LewisWildermuth

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California Tim said:
Jewish scribes who copied the MT (Massoretic Text) of the Hebrew Bible scrolls paid the greatest attention to the minutiae of detail and such marks attached to each consonant throughout the entire text. They even numbered every letter, word, sentence, paragraph, chapter, section, and scroll to insure that the total equalled that of the text being copied before allowing it to enter the holy synagogue.

The meaning of the passage is very clear. Not even the smallest letter or even its decorative spur will ever disappear from the "God Breathed" Word until all is fulfilled. In fact when heaven and earth are replaced by a new heaven and earth, the Word of the Lord will have accomplished its purpose and will be fulfilled in every detail even to the very letter.
http://www.bible-history.com/backd2/jot_tittle.html

Ummm... So texts like the Dead Sea Scrolls(the oldest copies of the MT we have) and others that give different hights for Goliath, different spellings for many of the words and even different chapters not existing in the modern Bible do not exist?

Funny, I could have sworn I saw some of them...

Seriously, there are many variants to the Bible, both OT and NT, with different spellings and different words used and even different "facts" about "historical items". So apparently Jesus did not concider the spelling or the historic interpretation to be important.
 
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Vance

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The NT was based on Greek documents, obviously. On at least one occasion, they found in the late middle ages an earlier Greek manuscript of one of the Gospel which differed from the one their current Scripture was based on. Not a major issue, and it did not change any doctrinal issues, but it was more than just a matter of spelling or punctuation. They had a dilemma. Was the earlier text to be used (since it was closer to the source, and more likely correct), which would mean that the Scripture that Christians had been reading for about 1,000 years was in error? Or were they to assume that God had guided the hands of the original compilers to choose the later manuscript, going against all sensible scholarship? They chose to base all later editions of Scripture on the earlier manuscript, and this is what we have today. So, this text differs from that which was originally compiled by the early Councils as the canonical text.

So, was the Church reading imperfect Scripture for the first 1,000 years, or are we reading imperfect text now? For the strict literalist who insists on strict word for word inerrancy, it can't be both.

But, for those who feel that the inerrancy is in the content and message and not the words and details, then BOTH were perfect and inerrant. So, which "inerrancy" view is able to be upheld?
 
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California Tim

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Vance said:
So, was the Church reading imperfect Scripture for the first 1,000 years, or are we reading imperfect text now? For the strict literalist who insists on strict word for word inerrancy, it can't be both.
Surely it is abundantly clear that anything less than the original "autographed" originals is less than perfect or ideal, yet we believe the essence of the message, the truth being conveyed remains intact, and has always remained apparent - preserved by divine providence.

On the issue of an isolated "older" text: Taken alone, it cannot necessarily be presumed to be more accurate than the originals, unless more copies are found to corroborate that it was not an isolated or corrupted copy. It does present a difficult academic challenge though ... that much is obvious.
 
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Vance

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California Tim said:
Surely it is abundantly clear that anything less than the original "autographed" originals is less than perfect or ideal, yet we believe the essence of the message, the truth being conveyed remains intact, and has always remained apparent - preserved by divine providence.

On the issue of an isolated "older" text: Taken alone, it cannot necessarily be presumed to be more accurate than the originals, unless more copies are found to corroborate that it was not an isolated or corrupted copy. It does present a difficult academic challenge though ... that much is obvious.

Again, we agree completely.
 
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artybloke

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The meaning of the passage is very clear.

Language is almost never this transparent. Even if we had the original autographs, no text except some purely technical texts (how to mend a fuse, for instance) has only one meaning. A largely monosylabic language like Ancient Hebrew is full of puns, double meanings and other obstacles to clarity.

That's before you take into account the literary style, use of rhetorical devices, metaphor, simile, anaphora, synecdoche, hyperbole, litotes etc etc that are the marks of all creative writing; or the use of poetic devices such as paralellism, alphabet forms, stanza forms, refrain, repetition etc etc... Even with the most original manuscript in the original language (something we do not have) the possibilities of misinterpretation are endless.

And we haven't even begun to touch on the hermeneutic circle yet...
 
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Vance

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I agree with this completely. While I think that God assured that the salvation message is plain and simple to anyone who reads the text, much of the rest requires that we "study to show ourselves approved" and explains why we need the role of "teacher" in Paul's description of Church roles, and why there is a specific gift of "teaching" from the Holy Spirit.
 
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