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Creation & Evolution ‘Free-for-all’

pitabread

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You infer the Bible is wrong if it means the Creation was in 24-hour days, but if it really meant ages...

I never said the Bible was wrong. I don't consider a non-literalist interpretation to mean the same thing as "wrong".

More than anything, I think it comes down to literary and historical context (esp. given the age in which the Bible was written).

There is a Biologos article on the subject that covers it better than I probably could. I'd encourage giving it a look: How long are the days of Genesis 1? - Common-questions
 
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inquiring mind

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It would be irrelevant even if science and the Bible happened to agree on the age of the Earth. As Pitabread pointed out, if you want to know the age of the Earth, you find out by examining the Earth, not by reading a book which is about something else altogether.
I agree. Don't read too much into my statement. I'm just saying that in such case you should take notice that a 4,000 year old book has already told you something in simple terms.
 
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Speedwell

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No, I'm not dating anything or saying the Bible does. Remember, I said it's time we don't understand. You infer the Bible is wrong if it means the Creation was in 24-hour days, but if it really meant ages...
Which is even more "wrong" as the text itself doesn't justify such a conclusion.
 
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Speedwell

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I agree. Don't read too much into my statement. I'm just saying that in such case you should take notice that a 4,000 year old book has already told you something in simple terms.
I would hardly expect the terms to be "simple."
 
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pitabread

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I'm going to jump back to my earlier post re: difference in understanding of evolution between creationists and myself, by listing a specific example.

I've long been fascinated by how biological evolution could produce complexity. An example of complexity is a biological system that requires multiple functional components.

Awhile back, I was reading an article in Scientific American that described just this. It involved scientists recreating molecular pathways for a functional system (vacuolar ATPase complex) in fungi which requires three types of proteins. The scientists determined how the system could evolve from requiring two proteins to the current three protein system. Thus, the system evolved to became more functionally complex. See the following article under the "Molecular Complexity" section: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-surprising-origins-of-evolutionary-complexity/

The scientists in question were able to determine how this was possible and even experimentally demonstrate this through ancestral gene reconstruction and experimentation with modern yeast (IOW, undoing the complexity and then charting a path to its recreation via evolutionary processes).

Even more interesting is that this doesn't explicitly require beneficial mutations; the changes are effectively neutral, yet still result in increased functional complexity.

When I'm discussing the subject of evolution with creationists, I've repeatedly had creationists tell me that biological evolution cannot produce increasing complexity. Yet I struggle to reconcile such a claim with what is in the scientific literature. The scientific literature contains the opposite; numerous examples of how evolution can produce complexity.

Thus, this illustrates a gap in my reading and understanding of the scientific literature on the subject of evolution versus what I find creationists tell me on forums like these.

Is there a way to bridge that gap?
 
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I'm going to jump back to my earlier post re: difference in understanding of evolution between creationists and myself, by listing a specific example.

I've long been fascinated by how biological evolution could produce complexity. An example of complexity is a biological system that requires multiple functional components.

Awhile back, I was reading an article in Scientific American that described just this. It involved scientists recreating molecular pathways for a functional system (vacuolar ATPase complex) in fungi which requires three types of proteins. The scientists determined how the system could evolve from requiring two proteins to the current three protein system. Thus, the system evolved to became more functionally complex. See the following article under the "Molecular Complexity" section: The Surprising Origins of Evolutionary Complexity

The scientists in question were able to determine how this was possible and even experimentally demonstrate this through ancestral gene reconstruction and experimentation with modern yeast (IOW, undoing the complexity and then charting a path to its recreation via evolutionary processes).

Even more interesting is that this doesn't explicitly require beneficial mutations; the changes are effectively neutral, yet still result in increased functional complexity.

When I'm discussing the subject of evolution with creationists, I've repeatedly had creationists tell me that biological evolution cannot produce increasing complexity. Yet I struggle to reconcile such a claim with what is in the scientific literature. The scientific literature contains the opposite; numerous examples of how evolution can produce complexity.

Thus, this illustrates a gap in my reading and understanding of the scientific literature on the subject of evolution versus what I find creationists tell me on forums like these.

Is there a way to bridge that gap?
By 'bridging the gap' don't you mean 'interpret your way'?
 
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pitabread

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By 'bridging the gap' don't you mean 'interpret your way'?

Not necessarily. If someone wants to argue that this isn't an example of evolution of complexity, I'd be curious to see that. Though generally in discussions with creationists, the subject of complexity seems to be contingent on increasing functional dependence in biological systems. The linked article contains an example of just that.

If it's not an example of evolution producing complexity, what else is it?
 
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Not necessarily. If someone wants to argue that this isn't an example of evolution of complexity, I'd be curious to see that. Though generally in discussions with creationists, the subject of complexity seems to be contingent on increasing functional dependence in biological systems. The linked article contains an example of just that.

If it's not an example of evolution producing complexity, what else is it?
I've always said (or thought anyway) the mechanisms of evolution are very arguable, and often convincingly so because variation and adaptation are so apparent, but some things (the eye for example) are a one in gazillion shot... just doesn't compute.
 
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pitabread

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I've always said the mechanisms of evolution are very arguable, and often convincingly so because variation and adaptation are so apparent, but some things (the eye for example) are a one in gazillion shot... just doesn't compute.

This is an example of the gap I'm talking about. I posted an example of how scientists determined how a system involving two protein types could evolve into a system involving three protein types. Thus, evolution producing an increase in complexity.

Your response doesn't address that example. You're bringing up something else entirely (eye evolution) and appear to be expressing an argument from incredulity.

So how am I supposed to respond to this? I can't undo the knowledge that I have based on my reading of that article or other knowledge I have re: evolution. And yes, this includes also an understanding on how the eye could have evolved right down to the origin of light sensitive proteins.

I'm not sure what you would expect me to do in this case?
 
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This is an example of the gap I'm talking about. I posted an example of how scientists determined how a system involving two protein types could evolve into a system involving three protein types. Thus, evolution producing an increase in complexity.

Your response doesn't address that example. You're bringing up something else entirely (eye evolution) and appear to be expressing an argument from incredulity.

So how am I supposed to respond to this? I can't undo the knowledge that I have based on my reading of that article or other knowledge I have re: evolution. And yes, this includes also an understanding on how the eye could have evolved right down to the origin of light sensitive proteins.

I'm not sure what you would expect me to do in this case?
Well, you do have a point. I guess I just assumed where you were headed with it (and I did skim read the article). But, all of us do not have molecular biology degrees, so how are we supposed to respond?
 
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pitabread

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Well, you do have a point. I guess I just assumed where you were headed with it (and I did skim read the article). But, all of us do not have molecular biology degrees, so how are we supposed to respond?

I don't think a molecular biology degree is required here (I certainly don't have one) Though I think there is a disparity of knowledge here. I've spent years with a keen interest in this subject up to and including taking science electives in university to further my understanding of biology and evolution. Over time, I feel like I've developed a conceptual understanding of the evolution of complexity including evolution of complex organs.

I can't undo that knowledge. So when someone tells me that something like the eye can't evolve, I'm not sure how to respond. (Admittedly my knee-jerk response would otherwise be "you just don't understand". But that doesn't get us anywhere.)

There is a gap here.
 
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I don't think a molecular biology degree is required here (I certainly don't have one) Though I think there is a disparity of knowledge here. I've spent years with a keen interest in this subject up to and including taking science electives in university to further my understanding of biology and evolution. Over time, I feel like I've developed a conceptual understanding of the evolution of complexity including evolution of complex organs.

I can't undo that knowledge. So when someone tells me that something like the eye can't evolve, I'm not sure how to respond. (Admittedly my knee-jerk response would otherwise be "you just don't understand". But that doesn't get us anywhere.)

There is a gap here.
What you have to remember is that Creation is 50% of the disagreement and this forum, and where does the idea of Creation (the Christian one in this case) come from… Genesis of course. So, there has to be some latitude for biblical non-scientific expressions.
 
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pitabread

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What you have to remember is that Creation is 50% of the disagreement and this forum, and where does the idea of Creation (the Christian one in this case) come from… Genesis of course. So, there has to be some latitude for biblical non-scientific expressions.

What do you mean?

(Keeping mind that I don't think the evolution of complexity has anything to do with refuting the notion of Creation or Christianity. Many Christians accept evolution and I have to respect that.)
 
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Speedwell

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So, are you saying the text is irrelevant?
There's not much linguistic support in the text for "day-agers," but either way, the text is irrelevant to any scientific attempt to discover the actual age of the Earth.
 
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AshBlackburn

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For the universe to have created itself it would have had to have pre existed before the big bang in order to have created itself.. Plus the conservation of angular momentum means that if a spinning object or a swirling dot breaks apart all the debris will spin in the same direction but there are moons that spin backwards and planets
 
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