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Creation Evidence

dad

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And so you're saying the same thing. Reject belief in the Bible as literal fact, and you reject Jesus, therefore if you don't believe in the Bible you are not saved.

See? You said it, you just took a long way to say it.

Depends on what part of the bible. I was not aware that we needed to get it all down pat to merely get saved.It is my understanding that belief in Jesus is what does that.

If anyone really accepts Jesus, eventually, if they mean business, they will start to believe the bible more and more. After all, where do you think God, and Christians even kept the record, where we learned about Jesus??!! Certainly not from public education. Not from pagan history. Not from Jewish history, for the most part, seems like the records about Him mysteriously disappeared, somewhat like the exodus days of Egypt. But man can't blot out our record, and we know that our record is true.

Anyone that choses to believe, but limps along without His word, is going through life spiritually handicapped, far as I can tell. Even if they die in that weak state, they still will find out all about it on the other side. You can't get around it.
 
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DaveISBG

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Depends on what part of the bible. I was not aware that we needed to get it all down pat to merely get saved.It is my understanding that belief in Jesus is what does that.

If anyone really accepts Jesus, eventually, if they mean business, they will start to believe the bible more and more. After all, where do you think God, and Christians even kept the record, where we learned about Jesus??!! Certainly not from public education. Not from pagan history. Not from Jewish history, for the most part, seems like the records about Him mysteriously disappeared, somewhat like the exodus days of Egypt. But man can't blot out our record, and we know that our record is true.

Anyone that choses to believe, but limps along without His word, is going through life spiritually handicapped, far as I can tell. Even if they die in that weak state, they still will find out all about it on the other side. You can't get around it.
John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
1Co 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those being lost, but to us being saved, it is the power of God.
 
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DaveISBG

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Depends on what part of the bible. I was not aware that we needed to get it all down pat to merely get saved.It is my understanding that belief in Jesus is what does that.

If anyone really accepts Jesus, eventually, if they mean business, they will start to believe the bible more and more. After all, where do you think God, and Christians even kept the record, where we learned about Jesus??!! Certainly not from public education. Not from pagan history. Not from Jewish history, for the most part, seems like the records about Him mysteriously disappeared, somewhat like the exodus days of Egypt. But man can't blot out our record, and we know that our record is true.

Anyone that choses to believe, but limps along without His word, is going through life spiritually handicapped, far as I can tell. Even if they die in that weak state, they still will find out all about it on the other side. You can't get around it.
John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

1Co 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those being lost, but to us being saved, it is the power of God.
icon6.gif


 
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Chalnoth

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John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

1Co 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those being lost, but to us being saved, it is the power of God.
icon6.gif
What does this have to do with whether or not evolution is accurate?
 
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exxxys

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The theory of evolution at some juncture always requires spontaneous generation to occur. The pioneering work of Louis Pasteur paved the way for our canning and bottling industry today. Billions of experiments are performed each day as tuna fish, tomato soup and grape jelly are put into a controlled environment absent living DNA. The result is consistently the same, new life does not form spontaneously from non-living material. Not even from organic, previously alive material. Once the living DNA has been precipitated or disassembled by whatever means, heat, radiation, decay, new life does not form from the remains. There is a specific order to life ordained by the creator of life. All things reproduce according to their kind.

Evoloution does not work in that way. New species and creatures do not immediatly spawn in a different form. I can't just give you a moon stone and expect you change!!

Additional genetic information is never gained in a DNA chain. When mutations occur, it's always a scrambling of information already present; a leg out of place, an additional head or some other abberation of existing DNA code.

Evoloution occurs when a species is presented with a new environment/challenge that remains permanent in their ecosystem. They adapt over time, changing ever so slightly.

It's called "Natural Selection". When a certain trait is beneficial to a species, things with that ability will seek out others with the same ability. Their offspring will more often then not have this trait also, and they will seek out mates with the same skills to survive.

For example, wisdom teeth. Why do you think some of us have to have them removed? We simply have o more need for them. As humans eat less and less raw meat, our jaws recede. Crowding of teeth? Overbites? These things aren't an accident.
 
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Logicalthinker

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The theory of evolution at some juncture always requires spontaneous generation to occur. The pioneering work of Louis Pasteur paved the way for our canning and bottling industry today. Billions of experiments are performed each day as tuna fish, tomato soup and grape jelly are put into a controlled environment absent living DNA. The result is consistently the same, new life does not form spontaneously from non-living material. Not even from organic, previously alive material. Once the living DNA has been precipitated or disassembled by whatever means, heat, radiation, decay, new life does not form from the remains. There is a specific order to life ordained by the creator of life. All things reproduce according to their kind.

Additional genetic information is never gained in a DNA chain. When mutations occur, it's always a scrambling of information already present; a leg out of place, an additional head or some other abberation of existing DNA code.

Never does a wing form on a snake or a fin on a cat. The information is not present and cannot arise stochastically. It is not only improbable, it is impossible. The result, of course, is that 'all things reproduce according to their kind'. Dogs beget dogs, birds beget birds and so forth.

Many kinds of animals have become extinct, we find their remains all the time. While we discover new varieties of life from time to time, no new kinds of life arise from other kinds, or from non-living material.

Consider this: people consider frogs becoming princes a fairy tale. But, if they tell you mankind came from a rock, it's evolution.

I hear what your trying to say. I often ponder on creation / evolution. I my self believe in God and creation, and this is why. Evolution shows a thought process. For example we will take the black berry bush.
The seeds of the black berry bush is in the fruit. When a fruit drops off the plant, onto the ground, it will not germinate. The plant can not afford to compete with soil, water, and minerals with it's offspring. So the seeds in the fruit are sterile. But not to worry. All it takes is a bird. The bird eats the fruit and when it flies off and poops it drops fertile seeds and a new black berry bush grows. The seeds have to be digested to germinate. So now this raises some questions.

How did the black berry bush know to make fruit?

How did it know there were even creatures like birds to spread it's seeds?

How did it know to design it's seeds to became fertile only through the digestive track of an animal, that it did not know existed?

How did it know that it could not compete with it's offspring?

Why would it make it's fruit sweet, and delicious for animals, to be tempted, to eat the fruit, in order to reproduce? It didn't even know the animals were there to do that for it. It doesn't think.

Do black berry bushes think? No. But someone had to. We know plants do not have a thought process?

The cool thing is, it is not only black berries. These complex systems are everywhere. It shows that evolution has to be able to think and make complex arrangements just for the survival of plants and animals.

I will not give the credit to evolution or the very smart black berry bush. I will give credit to the grand creator.

God Bless
LT
 
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I hear what your trying to say. I often ponder on creation / evolution. I my self believe in God and creation, and this is why. Evolution shows a thought process. For example we will take the black berry bush.
The seeds of the black berry bush is in the fruit. When a fruit drops off the plant, onto the ground, it will not germinate. The plant can not afford to compete with soil, water, and minerals with it's offspring. So the seeds in the fruit are sterile. But not to worry. All it takes is a bird. The bird eats the fruit and when it flies off and poops it drops fertile seeds and a new black berry bush grows. The seeds have to be digested to germinate. So now this raises some questions.

How did the black berry bush know to make fruit?

How did it know there were even creatures like birds to spread it's seeds?

How did it know to design it's seeds to became fertile only through the digestive track of an animal, that it did not know existed?

How did it know that it could not compete with it's offspring?

Why would it make it's fruit sweet, and delicious for animals, to be tempted, to eat the fruit, in order to reproduce? It didn't even know the animals were there to do that for it. It doesn't think.

Do black berry bushes think? No. But someone had to. We know plants do not have a thought process?

The cool thing is, it is not only black berries. These complex systems are everywhere. It shows that evolution has to be able to think and make complex arrangements just for the survival of plants and animals.

I will not give the credit to evolution or the very smart black berry bush. I will give credit to the grand creator.

God Bless
LT


Logicalthinker, you are anything but a Logicalthinker,
that is positively childlike, how old are you?
I can hear your Sunday school teacher telling you that story, and you still believe it today. Amazing.
 
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Cabal

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How did the black berry bush know to make fruit?

How did it know there were even creatures like birds to spread it's seeds?

How did it know to design it's seeds to became fertile only through the digestive track of an animal, that it did not know existed?

How did it know that it could not compete with it's offspring?

Why would it make it's fruit sweet, and delicious for animals, to be tempted, to eat the fruit, in order to reproduce? It didn't even know the animals were there to do that for it. It doesn't think.


You misunderstand a great deal about evolution. Evolution isn't about a species "knowing" where it's going to end up, and evolution never has any goal in mind for that species either. All it does is promote variation in genes.

The only reason we see all those "designed" traits that you mentioned in the blackberry today is because all the other variations of blackberry plant natural selection created weren't fit to survive in their environment. So it isn't really proof of anything, apart from ToE.
 
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Split Rock

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I hear what your trying to say. I often ponder on creation / evolution. I my self believe in God and creation, and this is why. Evolution shows a thought process. For example we will take the black berry bush.
The seeds of the black berry bush is in the fruit. When a fruit drops off the plant, onto the ground, it will not germinate. The plant can not afford to compete with soil, water, and minerals with it's offspring. So the seeds in the fruit are sterile. But not to worry. All it takes is a bird. The bird eats the fruit and when it flies off and poops it drops fertile seeds and a new black berry bush grows. The seeds have to be digested to germinate. So now this raises some questions.

How did the black berry bush know to make fruit?

How did it know there were even creatures like birds to spread it's seeds?

How did it know to design it's seeds to became fertile only through the digestive track of an animal, that it did not know existed?

How did it know that it could not compete with it's offspring?

Why would it make it's fruit sweet, and delicious for animals, to be tempted, to eat the fruit, in order to reproduce? It didn't even know the animals were there to do that for it. It doesn't think.

Do black berry bushes think? No. But someone had to. We know plants do not have a thought process?

The cool thing is, it is not only black berries. These complex systems are everywhere. It shows that evolution has to be able to think and make complex arrangements just for the survival of plants and animals.

I will not give the credit to evolution or the very smart black berry bush. I will give credit to the grand creator.

God Bless
LT

Natural Selection is responsible, not "knowing" what kind of fruit to make. From Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection

Natural selection is the process by which favorable heritable traits become more common in successive generations of a population of reproducing organisms, and unfavorable heritable traits become less common. Natural selection acts on the phenotype, or the observable characteristics of an organism, such that individuals with favorable phenotypes are more likely to survive and reproduce than those with less favorable phenotypes. The phenotype's genetic basis, genotype associated with the favorable phenotype, will increase in frequency over the following generations. Over time, this process can result in adaptations that specialize organisms for particular ecological niches and may eventually result in the emergence of new species. In other words, natural selection is the mechanism by which evolution may take place in a population of a specific organism.
 
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Logicalthinker

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Hi everyone. This is my own thoughts. not from a Sunday school. You can say it is childish if you like, and you can attack characters. That is fine. I know what natural selection, survival of the fittest, and random selection is. It just makes no sense. We have never witnessed life create itself period. They can not recreate it in a lab. It should be easy to do with what we know. First life was supposedly simple life. A single cell.

Plus like I said the black berry is only one of many complex systems. Not only life, but the earth, weather, tides, plates, universe and on and on. very complex and the odds of all this coming together to form a perfect environment for life. Wow. What are the odds. Got to look at the big picture not a little piece here and there.

Here is a system that scientist can not explain. Cicadas, a fly in North America.
some of these flies only hatch 17 years on the dot. What is different about them is bugs are high in protein. Cicadas are high in nitrogen.
Millions of these flies hatch all at once. They have no natural defense and swarm the forests. they only live a few days and after breeding die. Now the cool thing is that every 17 years the forests of North America are fertilized. The forest floor is littered with there carcasses and they decompose, which releases nitrogen into the soil. This in turn give the soil vital nutrients to feed the trees.

Why hatch only 17 years?
How did natural selection of a Cicadas fly know to involve feeding the trees or replenish the forest?
Why are they high nitrogen, which plants need to live?

Did random selection of this bug know to include the forest?

Why would natural selection create this insect to feed plants when the fly itself does not need plants to survive?

Plus remember you can't over fertilize, It will kill the plants. So every 17 years is when the big swarm hits. Perfect space between feedings so the forest doesn't die from over fertilization.

It shows a thought process. I feed my garden because I love the fresh vegetables and I want it to grow well. Without it the soil will not be able to support plant life, after a time. Thats why farmers fertilize or rotate crops. This shows God has made arrangements so even his forests go without and the soil is replenished with nutrients.

Because of these complex arrangements between animals, plants and earth shows me that there is more than just random chance. It shows thought.

Does evolution Think?
Does God Think?

You can believe what you want. I'm not here to convert. I am just sharing my thoughts with everyone. This is why I have come to this conclusion. There is a God.

To complex. To many complex systems working together.

God Bless
LT
 
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Cabal

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Hi everyone. This is my own thoughts. not from a Sunday school. You can say it is childish if you like, and you can attack characters. That is fine. I know what natural selection, survival of the fittest, and random selection is. It just makes no sense. We have never witnessed life create itself period. They can not recreate it in a lab. It should be easy to do with what we know. First life was supposedly simple life. A single cell.

Apologies if my previous post seemed overly critical, that was not my intention.

With regard to the above point - ToE never claimed to explain the origin of life.

You can believe what you want. I'm not here to convert. I am just sharing my thoughts with everyone. This is why I have come to this conclusion. There is a God.

To complex. To many complex systems working together.

To which I would ask - do you believe what you believe because it helped reinforce your belief in God, or have you always believed no matter what physical evidence there is? Personally, I don't think Christians need worry about what physical evidence / scientific theories are created by man - mainly because belief is about faith, not empiricism.

My next question would be - evolution as a theory, which as I mentioned does not account for origin of life itself, makes testable predictions about observed data, which have held up time and time again (specific predictions about gene drift, genetic similarities between similar species etc). Do you think intelligent design can top this? Frankly, from what I've seen, ID defines itself in terms of what it isn't (i.e not evolution). It doesn't do much actual science work (generating testable predictions etc).

You say something is too complex, therefore must have been designed. How do you reconcile this with the fact that "complexity" or "intelligent design" are both highly subjective terms? One man's "intelligently designed" is another man's "evolved" - and it's pretty clear which mode of investigating the subject has had better results. How does one quantify "design?"
 
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flatworm

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Hi everyone. This is my own thoughts. not from a Sunday school. You can say it is childish if you like, and you can attack characters. That is fine. I know what natural selection, survival of the fittest, and random selection is. It just makes no sense.

Then you don't know what they are.


We have never witnessed life create itself period. They can not recreate it in a lab. It should be easy to do with what we know. First life was supposedly simple life. A single cell.

How about a virus?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2122619.stm

Evolution does not attempt to explain the origin of life, just as the theory of gravity does not attempt to explain the origin of mass.

Plus like I said the black berry is only one of many complex systems. Not only life, but the earth, weather, tides, plates, universe and on and on.

The diversity of life is the only issue addressed by the theory of evolution.

very complex and the odds of all this coming together to form a perfect environment for life. Wow. What are the odds. Got to look at the big picture not a little piece here and there.

The big picture is that one billionth of one billionth of one billionth of one billionth of one billionth of one billionth of one billionth of one percent of the observable universe is known to be amenable to terrestrial life.

What evolution does show us is just how life adapts splendidly to a wide range of environments - not the other way around. We should no more be astonished to find an environment that supports the life we find in it than we are to find a hole that fits the shape of the puddle within it.

Here is a system that scientist can not explain. Cicadas, a fly in North America.
some of these flies only hatch 17 years on the dot. What is different about them is bugs are high in protein. Cicadas are high in nitrogen.
Millions of these flies hatch all at once. They have no natural defense and swarm the forests. they only live a few days and after breeding die. Now the cool thing is that every 17 years the forests of North America are fertilized. The forest floor is littered with there carcasses and they decompose, which releases nitrogen into the soil. This in turn give the soil vital nutrients to feed the trees.

You've been misinformed. Some cicadas do hatch every 17 years, but there are different cohorts, so you don't actually have 17 years between batches of cicadas. Different cohorts hatch in different years, and the ranges of some of these 'broods' overlap. Some species also hatch every 13 years, and sometimes their ranges overlap.

Research has actually been done on cicada evolution:

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=17364894

Some species of cicada are only protoperiodic- more abundant in some years than in others. Here is a paper discussing the difference and how it offers clues to cicada evolution.

Why hatch only 17 years?
How did natural selection of a Cicadas fly know to involve feeding the trees or replenish the forest?

It doesn't "know". Everything that dies in a forest fertilizes the soil. This isn't a defining characteristic of cicadas.

Why are they high nitrogen, which plants need to live?

It can't be avoided because proteins are high in nitrogen. Proteins are made of amino acids, so-named for their amine (NH2) group. Every living thing is high in nitrogen.

Why would natural selection create this insect to feed plants when the fly itself does not need plants to survive?

It does need the plants. The developing nymphs underground feed on xylem fluid from the roots.

Plus remember you can't over fertilize, It will kill the plants. So every 17 years is when the big swarm hits. Perfect space between feedings so the forest doesn't die from over fertilization.

When you fertilize your lawn, do you do it once every 17 years with massive quantities of fertilizer? This is not an optimum scenario. Rather, it is workable, which is just what we expect from evolution.

It shows a thought process. I feed my garden because I love the fresh vegetables and I want it to grow well. Without it the soil will not be able to support plant life, after a time. Thats why farmers fertilize or rotate crops. This shows God has made arrangements so even his forests go without and the soil is replenished with nutrients.

Except many forests around the world have no cicadas and get by just fine.

Because of these complex arrangements between animals, plants and earth shows me that there is more than just random chance.

There is. It's called natural selection, and it's decidedly non-random. Natural selection inevitable includes such concepts as co-evolution, which provides real, meaningful explanations as to how the interdependencies we observe in nature came to be, as opposed to the empty platitudes of "Goddidit".
 
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It just makes no sense. We have never witnessed life create itself period. They can not recreate it in a lab. It should be easy to do with what we know. First life was supposedly simple life. A single cell.

On the one hand you are telling us life could not come from nothing,
then you go on to say that life was made by something that itself came from nothing,
so now we have two somethings made from nothing,
and I am supposed to be the wrong one for believing only one thing came from nothing.

I at least can see the ONE thing that came from nothing, it's all around us,
but you can not see the other thing that came from nothing, yet you still pray to it every night,
have I got it about right? or is there something else you would like to tell us?
something like, 'I haven't been very well lately, someone fed me a load of rubbish and it's upset my head'.

You are entitled to believe whatever you want, and good luck to you, just remember,
if you tell people who do not believe as you do, it will all sound very stupid indeed, and impossible to believe,
you were caught when you were young, so you have no trouble believing it, for others it all sounds like "£$%^&*()
 
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plindboe

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Hi everyone. This is my own thoughts. not from a Sunday school. You can say it is childish if you like, and you can attack characters. That is fine. I know what natural selection, survival of the fittest, and random selection is. It just makes no sense. We have never witnessed life create itself period. They can not recreate it in a lab. It should be easy to do with what we know. First life was supposedly simple life. A single cell.

So it's easy for scientists to figure out all the details about a process that started about 4 billion years ago, and easy to recreate chemical processes that took place over hundreds of millions of years? Why on earth would you believe such a thing? Have you read anything at all about the abiogenesis hypotheses?


What is different about them is bugs are high in protein. Cicadas are high in nitrogen.

Rich in protein means rich in nitrogen. Don't you know what protein is?


Millions of these flies hatch all at once. They have no natural defense and swarm the forests. they only live a few days and after breeding die. Now the cool thing is that every 17 years the forests of North America are fertilized. The forest floor is littered with there carcasses and they decompose, which releases nitrogen into the soil. This in turn give the soil vital nutrients to feed the trees.

Why hatch only 17 years?
How did natural selection of a Cicadas fly know to involve feeding the trees or replenish the forest?
Why are they high nitrogen, which plants need to live?

All life contain nutrients that other life can use. There's nothing unique about cicadas in that respect.


Did random selection of this bug know to include the forest?

Why would natural selection create this insect to feed plants when the fly itself does not need plants to survive?

Why would you assume that the insect is made for the plants?


Plus remember you can't over fertilize, It will kill the plants. So every 17 years is when the big swarm hits. Perfect space between feedings so the forest doesn't die from over fertilization.

You're presuming in order to reach your desired conclusion. Your presumption here is that the forest would be worse off if the cicadas emerged in another pattern. It seems you've based your entire post on that presumption.



It shows a thought process. I feed my garden because I love the fresh vegetables and I want it to grow well. Without it the soil will not be able to support plant life, after a time. Thats why farmers fertilize or rotate crops. This shows God has made arrangements so even his forests go without and the soil is replenished with nutrients.

That's you assuming a purpose simply because it reflects your bias. It's entirely subjective and you're just seeing what you want to see.


Does evolution Think?

No, it's a blind process.


Does God Think?

No, thinking requires existance.


You can believe what you want. I'm not here to convert. I am just sharing my thoughts with everyone. This is why I have come to this conclusion. There is a God.

That is fine, I don't have a problem with theism. But rejection of reality whenever it doesn't conform to narrow religious views is another matter.


God Bless
LT

Have a nice day.

Peter :)
 
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Logicalthinker

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Hello everyone. Wow. Some great responses. You guys are giving very intelligent answers.


To which I would ask - do you believe what you believe because it helped reinforce your belief in God, or have you always believed no matter what physical evidence there is? Personally, I don't think Christians need worry about what physical evidence / scientific theories are created by man - mainly because belief is about faith, not empiricism.?"

I was born to a semi lazy Christian family. We did not go to church and my father would pray only at thanksgiving. But he would talk about God a lot. He never really read the bible I don't think.
When I was a teen, him and I had some strong discussions about evolution. I had not made my mind over yet on what I really believed. But always have leaned more towards creation.

Now I am older, I have made my mind over and have decided to believe in God. This belief does not take away my intelligence. But does narrow what I will believe. I have decided not to believe evolution just like you may choose to not believe any religion. Both will change the way one thinks and views the world. A logical person than will try to rationalize their reality despite opposition and come to a conclusion that will fit their point of view. So yes it does reinforce my belief in God. Some of the physical evidence is way out on a limb also. With just enough holes to make it real or not real. It than comes to an individual choice. My choice is I see the holes in evolution and look for them. You may look at religion the sameway.

My next question would be - evolution as a theory, which as I mentioned does not account for origin of life itself, makes testable predictions about observed data, which have held up time and time again (specific predictions about gene drift, genetic similarities between similar species etc). Do you think intelligent design can top this? Frankly, from what I've seen, ID defines itself in terms of what it isn't (i.e not evolution). It doesn't do much actual science work (generating testable predictions etc).

You say something is too complex, therefore must have been designed. How do you reconcile this with the fact that "complexity" or "intelligent design" are both highly subjective terms? One man's "intelligently designed" is another man's "evolved" - and it's pretty clear which mode of investigating the subject has had better results. How does one quantify "design?"

I see the scientific data. It is a very feasible theory . It really is. I get that. I try to look at it all in one bundle. Earth, weather, animals, plants, universe, and even the bible. Plus certain things that have happened in my life. It just makes me know there is a God. No one has to agree with me and I am not here to convert. I am just sharing my thoughts on the matter.
I don't believe in this ID theory either. I believe in a solitary individual God Jehovah. My wife is agnostic. She thinks aliens planted us or maybe space spores. But I always ask her who planted them. ID could include a whole range of things. I believe in one. I am not wishy washy. I have made my mind over.

Then you don't know what they are.
No I do. I have chosen not to believe them.
How about a virus?

That is a good article. What remains though, is the scientific community has not decided yet if a virus is alive or not. Is fire alive? It moves, breaths, eats, makes waste, reproduces, dies and can be killed.

I was aware of the other flies and their cycles. But the biggest one is the 17 year cycle. That is why I choose that one. Plus I may not have all the facts right. But you see my thoughts on the matter (God provides for his forests) you don't have to agree. I will always give the praise and glory to God.
I have seen the explanations and attempts at explaining how they evolved. I don't believe it. That simple. Just as you may not believe in religion. That simple.

As far as their nitrogen it is my understanding that they are really high in it. Higher levels than other creatures. Not sure on this one. I saw a National Geographic documentary on them and can't remember everything they said. But I know they were talking about the nitrogen in them.


When you fertilize your lawn, do you do it once every 17 years with massive quantities of fertilizer? This is not an optimum scenario. Rather, it is workable, which is just what we expect from evolution.

I have not fertilized my yard in 5 years. Green and thick as ever. over fertilized lawns are weak lawns. Shallow roots. They may look good. The plant will get addicted to it and keeps its roots close to the top to absorb it faster. If you have been using a company like True Green. Your lawn is a crack addict. Cut off the service and your lawn will die. They know that. People will stop their yard treatment and it starts to look bad. So they start it up again. If people would mow more and feed less the roots go deep and the lawn is super healthy. My father is a greens keeper on a golf course. They fertilized once a year. Not 7 times a year like True Green. Good way to keep a customer is to make them dependent. They addict peoples lawns on purpose. Good business.

So a healthy tree would be fertilized less to make deep roots, not shallow ones. [/quote]

On the one hand you are telling us life could not come from nothing,
then you go on to say that life was made by something that itself came from nothing,
so now we have two somethings made from nothing,
and I am supposed to be the wrong one for believing only one thing came from nothing.

No I never said you were wrong. I don't believe the theory. As you don't believe religion. Although if neither believe the other, whats the point of talking about it. Well I think it is always healthy to know points of view and have them on the table for all to see. So everyone has a chance to make up their mind. Just as you have made up your mind and I have made up mine. Some people have not. They need all the evidence and theories in front of them to choose what they feel is right.

I at least can see the ONE thing that came from nothing, it's all around us,
but you can not see the other thing that came from nothing, yet you still pray to it every night,
have I got it about right? or is there something else you would like to tell us?
something like, 'I haven't been very well lately, someone fed me a load of rubbish and it's upset my head'.

The problem with that is, the universe did not come from nothing. There is a lot of people wondering where all the raw materials come from.

For instance. Where does gold come from. The big bang does not explain where an element came into existence. It had to exist before the big bang. The big bang just made it all pull together. But doesn't explain spontaneous element creation. Gold came from somewhere. What made it. What made dirt? Where did dirt come from? The big bang does not explain this.

As for God. He never said he came from nothing. He does say before him there was no one.
Maybe some day he will explain it to us. Right now we accept what he says from the dawn of time he has always been.


You are entitled to believe whatever you want, and good luck to you, just remember,
if you tell people who do not believe as you do, it will all sound very stupid indeed, and impossible to believe,
you were caught when you were young, so you have no trouble believing it, for others it all sounds like "£$%^&*()

Thank you. I know what I believe may sound silly to an evo person. But what evo people say sounds silly to me. If an evo dude was giving a speech in a church who would sound silly to who. It would sound pretty stupid to the people in the church. When I am around my own, it does not sound stupid nor feel that way. I am sure the same is for you. Really it just comes down to what you have made your mind up to. As Christian, I recognize people have been given their God given right to decide on what they want for themselves. It is not my place to force my opinion on people. I will discuss it with others and they are free to believe or not. It is up to them.

God Bless
LT
 
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flatworm

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Now I am older, I have made my mind over and have decided to believe in God. This belief does not take away my intelligence. But does narrow what I will believe. I have decided not to believe evolution just like you may choose to not believe any religion.

False analogy. Evolution is accepted because it is supported by more evidence than any other theory in the history of science. What evidence can you provide for the claims of you religion?

Both will change the way one thinks and views the world. A logical person than will try to rationalize their reality despite opposition and come to a conclusion that will fit their point of view. So yes it does reinforce my belief in God. Some of the physical evidence is way out on a limb also. With just enough holes to make it real or not real. It than comes to an individual choice. My choice is I see the holes in evolution and look for them. You may look at religion the sameway.

Again, false analogy. Evolution is not a world view. It is a scientific explanation for the diversity of life on earth. That's it. Not a religion, not an answer to life-the-universe-and-everything, not a moral code.

I see the scientific data. It is a very feasible theory . It really is. I get that. I try to look at it all in one bundle. Earth, weather, animals, plants, universe, and even the bible. Plus certain things that have happened in my life. It just makes me know there is a God.

Fine. Evolution does not say whether or not there are gods.

I don't believe in this ID theory either. I believe in a solitary individual God Jehovah.

That pretty much puts you in the ID camp. It isn't a theory, by the way, nor even a hypothesis. Those require that an idea be testable and provide predictive and explanatory power.

No I do. I have chosen not to believe them.

No, you don't, and I'll tell you why. You casually refer to evolution as "random chance", ignoring the decidedly nonrandom element of selection. In the examples you bring up, you pretend all the "parts" had to appear together and in their present form. Take the blackberry, for example. Anyone who understood how evolution worked would look at other plants and their seed propagation strategies to see how they evolved. When plants were all alone on land, adding food stores to them would make them hardier. When animals come along they start taking advantage of the "free meal"- and those plants whose seeds survive their digestive tract get the added benefit of transportation. At this point plants whose seeds survive or mature in animals' digestive tracts have an advantage, particularly if they can make their seed packages more attractive to animals. Scientific explanations like this provide real explanatory power that "Goddidit" simply can never match.

That is a good article. What remains though, is the scientific community has not decided yet if a virus is alive or not. Is fire alive? It moves, breaths, eats, makes waste, reproduces, dies and can be killed.

Fire involves no encapsulation and no identifiable individuals. Viruses do, but are often not considered alive because they lack their own metabolism.

I was aware of the other flies and their cycles. But the biggest one is the 17 year cycle. That is why I choose that one. Plus I may not have all the facts right. But you see my thoughts on the matter (God provides for his forests) you don't have to agree. I will always give the praise and glory to God.

It's not just that I disagree- the important thing is that I have very good reasons for disagreeing. Most forests get by just fine without cicadas. If fertilization is required, 17 years is too long to go between cycles. Cicadas' sole food source is the trees they supposedly fertilize. It's robbing Peter to pay Paul. Net additional nutrition = zero.

I have seen the explanations and attempts at explaining how they evolved. I don't believe it. That simple. Just as you may not believe in religion. That simple.

False analogy again. I accept evolution because of the evidence; Religion doesn't have any. You have not once offered a reason for not accepting evolution other than personal incredulity. Sheer bullheadedness is not a logical argument.

As far as their nitrogen it is my understanding that they are really high in it. Higher levels than other creatures. Not sure on this one. I saw a National Geographic documentary on them and can't remember everything they said. But I know they were talking about the nitrogen in them.

Can you provide a citation for this? Besides, cicadas' only food source is the trees themselves. Even if they absorbed nitrogen from the soil, they're just stealing it from the same source the roots are trying to get it from. Net benefit to the trees is zero.

I have not fertilized my yard in 5 years. Green and thick as ever. over fertilized lawns are weak lawns. Shallow roots. They may look good. The plant will get addicted to it and keeps its roots close to the top to absorb it faster. If you have been using a company like True Green. Your lawn is a crack addict. Cut off the service and your lawn will die. They know that. People will stop their yard treatment and it starts to look bad. So they start it up again. If people would mow more and feed less the roots go deep and the lawn is super healthy. My father is a greens keeper on a golf course. They fertilized once a year. Not 7 times a year like True Green.

Once a year? Not once every 17, with massive quantities? I wonder why that would be!

No I never said you were wrong. I don't believe the theory. As you don't believe religion.

No, I don't believe in religion because it makes bundles of fantastical claims with zero evidence, then tells me only bad people doubt.

So far you have offered no reason not to accept evolution other than sheer denial.

The problem with that is, the universe did not come from nothing. There is a lot of people wondering where all the raw materials come from.

This has nothing to do with Evolution. You've segwayed into cosmology. Suffice it to say, if God can come from nothing, then so too can the universe. Simply cut out the middleman.

For instance. Where does gold come from.

Nuclear fusion inside stars. Now we're on to stellar mechanics and nuclear physics, are we?

Still not evolution.

The big bang does not explain where an element came into existence. It had to exist before the big bang. The big bang just made it all pull together. But doesn't explain spontaneous element creation.

Back to cosmology again. The big bang didn't pull anything together. It was the rapid expansion of space itself, together with all the matter and energy of the universe, from a very hot and dense state. Elements came later.

Gold came from somewhere. What made it.

Stars.


What made dirt? Where did dirt come from? The big bang does not explain this.

Dirt is mostly sand, clay and humus. Sand and clay come from the weathering of rock. Humus comes from the decay of biological material. This is basic pedology, which again is not evolution.

As for God. He never said he came from nothing. He does say before him there was no one.
Maybe some day he will explain it to us. Right now we accept what he says from the dawn of time he has always been.

Why not just cut out the middleman and say the universe has existed since the dawn of time?

Thank you. I know what I believe may sound silly to an evo person. But what evo people say sounds silly to me. If an evo dude was giving a speech in a church who would sound silly to who. It would sound pretty stupid to the people in the church. When I am around my own, it does not sound stupid nor feel that way. I am sure the same is for you. Really it just comes down to what you have made your mind up to.

Wrong. This is not a popularity contest. It is not a matter of personal preference. The evidence of the physical world has given us a clear picture of the mechanisms that brought about the observed diversity of life on earth. You can stick your fingers in your ears, close your eyes, and deny it, but don't pretend that's as valid as the careful inquiry of scientists into the question.
 
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flatworm

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You seem to be making a very common logical error, LogicalThinker. It's called the God Of The Gaps. It basically enjoins us to insert supernatural agency anywhere where our knowledge is lacking.

There are many problems with this. First it has no explanatory power. It makes no predictions, and makes no testable deductions. There isn't a single observation we could make that couldn't be explained away with a miracle. The "God of the Gaps" tells us nothing.

Second, it makes ignorance a synonym for faith. Once you've plugged your God into the gaps of scientific knowledge, any attempt to fill in those holes becomes an attack on your beliefs. Free inquiry becomes your enemy.

For these reasons, one of the most important, core concepts in the philosophy of science is that it's better to admit what we dont know than to invent a fantastical story about it and call it knowledge.
 
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MasterOfKrikkit

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Hey LT,

You seem like a decent bloke willing to listen to answers, so I just want to say: Theistic Evolution. Try it on for size! You said that you get that the ToE is a good scientific theory; yay! But it's more than that: as flatworm mentioned, it's probably the most solid, rigorously tested, highly developed scientific theory out there! Way better than gravity, that's for sure. So you shouldn't see things in terms of what you choose to believe, either theologically or scientifically. In terms of theology, I'd say you just believe what you believe, although there are details that you can "choose" or evaluate (and, as you say, these may be influenced by other things such as your knowledge of science). In terms of science, it's not a matter of "choosing to believe" but rather evaluating the evidence.

I can't tell you what to believe theologically. You say that events in your life tell you God exists. Cool. Even (most of!) the atheists here will be ok with that. But scientifically, the evidence is heavily in favor of evolution. I understand the problem you may have, thinking that this causes a contradiction. But there are many of us who have no problem with believing in God and accepting evolution. So, how can you come to a satisfactory resolution? I'd say you should think about both things: your theology and the ToE.

In terms of the latter, find out what it really says. What I mean by that is that a lot of creationists have a strawman idea of what the ToE is, and a number of the points you raise have been raised many times before and refuted to death (although you may not have seen those refutations). Many of the folks here will be happy to help you out, if you have genuine questions.

In terms of the former, it may help to think about why you think evolution is a threat to your theology. There are a number of standard reasons -- the Bible has to be the literal Word of God, Man should be "special", Man should have a soul, etc. Once you know what the conflict is, you can think about how to resolve it. Again, some of us here will be happy to help, if we can.

Bottom line: if you believe that God is Truth, then your beliefs should have nothing to fear from questioning with an open mind. Yes, your beliefs might change a bit, but it will be for the better. Good luck; Godspeed.
 
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