Creation Date

[inquiring mind]

Ussher seemed to assume a lot with his 4004 B.C. creation date (evidently based on the first day of creation week). Personally, I think Creation week was in a different time zone altogether from the one we know. For example, why would the days before Day 4 and the creation of the sun be the same length as we know them? And really, it was God’s work, so how could we assume to know the length of any of them anyway? And, as far as chronology back to Adam, that’s crossing Day 7 of Creation Week??? God said it was finished on Day 6 (but doesn’t say when He set it in motion that I can find), and Day 7 was a day of rest for Him, but never-the-less in the Creation week time zone. I’m not wanting to argue against YEC, or anything really, just curious what others think. Could the adherence to hard dates, even when they cross from our time zone to an unknown one, be a reason for the time problem when dating the Flood or archeological finds and making comparisons? I’m not saying the archeological dating is exact either, it’s generally all estimated. All I’m saying, for example, is that the Flood was before Egyptian dynasties, no matter what dates they’re thought to be, and whether they're based on an interpretation of biblical chronologies or archaeological finds. Evolutionists feel free to comment too.

 

[d taylor]

Who is usher

 

[The IbanezerScrooge]

Evolutionists feel free to comment too.

What's there to comment on from an evolutionary standpoint? From that POV there was no flood and no creation week. This is all speculation and conjecture based on a myth that literally no one can answer because there's no way to prove anyone's assertions or speculations wrong. This is basically a theological discussion on which evolution has nothing to say.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

It is mythic time or sacred time. it has nothing to do with our current understanding of clock time or historical.

 

[inquiring mind]

What's there to comment on from an evolutionary standpoint? From that POV there was no flood and no creation week. This is all speculation and conjecture based on a myth that literally no one can answer because there's no way to prove anyone's assertions or speculations wrong. This is basically a theological discussion on which evolution has nothing to say.

You said quite a bit... thanks for your input.

 

[inquiring mind]

It is mythic time or sacred time. it has nothing to do with our current understanding of clock time or historical.

'Our current understanding of time'... interesting.

 

[Halbhh]

Ussher seemed to assume a lot with his 4004 B.C. creation date (evidently based on the first day of creation week). Personally, I think Creation week was in a different time zone altogether from the one we know. For example, why would the days before Day 4 and the creation of the sun be the same length as we know them? And really, it was God’s work, so how could we assume to know the length of any of them anyway? And, as far as chronology back to Adam, that’s crossing Day 7 of Creation Week??? God said it was finished on Day 6 (but doesn’t say when He set it in motion that I can find), and Day 7 was a day of rest for Him, but never-the-less in the Creation week time zone. I’m not wanting to argue against YEC, or anything really, just curious what others think. Could the adherence to hard dates, even when they cross from our time zone to an unknown one, be a reason for the time problem when dating the Flood or archeological finds and making comparisons? I’m not saying the archeological dating is exact either, it’s generally all estimated. All I’m saying, for example, is that the Flood was before Egyptian dynasties, no matter what dates they’re thought to be, and whether they're based on an interpretation of biblical chronologies or archaeological finds. Evolutionists feel free to comment too.

To me the key 'creation date' would be when God created the heavens, that is, the universe, and that is from the initial start of it, which is estimated (in several ways, largely in agreement) to be near (roughly) about 14 billion years ago.

This date isn't very important though.

Why is it that the exact amount of time isn't important?

It's not only because we cannot even guess it from the Bible:
2 Peter 3:8 Beloved, do not let this one thing escape your notice: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

That's not the only reason the date isn't important.....

While one answer on why the date isn't important is that God choose that it was not important for us to know, and did not reveal it anywhere in the Bible, this also isn't the only main reason....

The main reason is that we are to have faith.

And a faith that is not to merely see proof first and then believe. Instead of that 'faith', we need this kind:

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see.

So, if we had been given an exact date for creation, then that would mean the New Testament is wrong. Because once we figured out the age of the Universe, and found it was just what the Bible already said, that would be a clear easy proof of God, no faith needed!

Which would go directly against God's will for us, that we come to real faith, to believe before and without seeing any such proof.

 

[BNR32FAN]

why would the days before Day 4 and the creation of the sun be the same length as we know them?

Because God made the plants on the third day and they can’t survive for long periods of time without sunlight.

 

[Halbhh]

Because God made the plants on the third day and they can’t survive for long periods of time without sunlight.

The main problem I have with YEC in addition to the lack of understanding what faith is suppose to be (see post #7) is that it seems to presume God is limited to do things the way we ourselves would do things, that is, in a simple way that is like "on Monday I hauled garden soil and let it dry out, and then the next day on Tuesday I planted the garden" -- as if God would be limited in time/energy/duration as if only a mortal human.

Instead of that kind timewise limitations, we learn later:
2 Peter 3:8 Beloved, do not let this one thing escape your notice: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

Instead of God being ruled over by time, by nature basically, He created nature, and thus nature's time clock, and rules over them. Time, like we know of it, is nothing to God. It's effortless for Him to reverse it even:

10“It is a simple matter for the shadow to go forward ten steps,” said Hezekiah. “Rather, have it go back ten steps.”

11Then the prophet Isaiah called on the Lord, and the Lord made the shadow go back the ten steps it had gone down on the stairway of Ahaz.

Time itself no more limits God than does the weight of a mountain or the smallness of an atom.

 

[inquiring mind]

Because God made the plants on the third day and they can’t survive for long periods of time without sunlight.

Great point, but He had light already, just not from the sun.

 

[Halbhh]

Great point, but He had light already, just not from the sun.

God just isn't limited like that.

He could keep plants alive without sunlight or any light for eons, if He chose. Or revive them in an instant if they wilted.

So, how should we read Genesis chapter 1?

With less of our own doctrines, and more pure listening, to just hear the word of the Lord!

So that it changes you.

When I read well -- quiet the doctrines (and debates) and just truly listen -- it alters my state of mind, opens me up, and makes me ready for what is next in chapters 2 and 3, to better hear and understand the subtle things in the text. It was from a true listening that suddenly I was given to understand more in chapters 2 and 3. Only when I surrendered to real listening.

(Real listening is where instead of us talking over the Word with our doctrines and theories in our own thoughts, we quiet them and let the Word do all of the talking. instead of us and instead of various theologians, etc.)

 

[inquiring mind]

The main problem I have with YEC in addition to the lack of understanding what faith is suppose to be (see post #7) is that it seems to presume God is limited to do things the way we ourselves would do things, that is, in a simple way that is like "on Monday I hauled garden soil and let it dry out, and then the next day on Tuesday I planted the garden" -- as if God would be limited in time/energy/duration as if only a mortal human.

Instead of that kind timewise limitations, we learn later:
2 Peter 3:8 Beloved, do not let this one thing escape your notice: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

Instead of God being ruled over by time, by nature basically, He created nature, and thus nature's time clock, and rules over them. Time, like we know of it, is nothing to God. It's effortless for Him to reverse it even:

10“It is a simple matter for the shadow to go forward ten steps,” said Hezekiah. “Rather, have it go back ten steps.”

11Then the prophet Isaiah called on the Lord, and the Lord made the shadow go back the ten steps it had gone down on the stairway of Ahaz.

Time itself no more limits God than does the weight of a mountain or the smallness of an atom.

I hear you. It's just that time of this or that is brought up quite often in these threads, and although I know it's pointless to try to figure out, it still interests me. I always like to see where someone goes with it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

To me the key 'creation date' would be when God created the heavens, that is, the universe, and that is from the initial start of it, which is estimated (in several ways, largely in agreement) to be near (roughly) about 14 billion years ago.

This date isn't very important though.

Why is it that the exact amount of time isn't important?

It's not only because we cannot even guess it from the Bible:
2 Peter 3:8 Beloved, do not let this one thing escape your notice: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

That's not the only reason the date isn't important.....

While one answer on why the date isn't important is that God choose that it was not important for us to know, and did not reveal it anywhere in the Bible, this also isn't the only main reason....

The main reason is that we are to have faith.

And a faith that is not to merely see proof first and then believe. Instead of that 'faith', we need this kind:

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see.

So, if we had been given an exact date for creation, then that would mean the New Testament is wrong. Because once we figured out the age of the Universe, and found it was just what the Bible already said, that would be a clear easy proof of God, no faith needed!

Which would go directly against God's will for us, that we come to real faith, to believe before and without seeing any such proof.

But the Bible does tell us how old the universe is. For in six days God created the heavens and the earth and everything in them. Adam was created on the sixth day then the genealogy records indicate just over 4,000 years from Adam to Christ’s birth. This doesn’t in anyway negate our need for faith since it has never been proven by science. So we still have to choose to have faith in the scriptures without having scientific proof to support it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

With less of our own doctrines, and more pure listening, to just hear the word of the Lord!

Like what verses are you referring to in particular? Because when I do this I keep coming up with God creating the heavens, the earth, and everything in them in 6 days. I’m not away of any verses that say anything contrary to that interpretation.

 

[Halbhh]

But the Bible does tell us how old the universe is. For in six days God created the heavens and the earth and everything in them. Adam was created on the sixth day then the genealogy records indicate just over 4,000 years from Adam to Christ’s birth. This doesn’t in anyway negate our need for faith since it has never been proven by science. So we still have to choose to have faith in the scriptures without having scientific proof to support it.

Just to know: I believe Adam literally existed, in a literal Garden of Eden. But this isn't YEC to believe this.

I'm familiar with YEC now.

I wasn't actually familiar with YEC back in my youth, even after attending churches my entire life, often 3 times a week. Many denominations in many cities.

Hundreds and hundreds of sermons from very many pastors in several different large denominations in the 70s.

But never any Young Earth Creationism. Just none. Not in many diverse churches.

Never heard YEC even once that I can recall in those days. I was the kind of kid that earnestly listened to sermons, thinking on everything said.

There was zero YEC. Hundreds of sermons, dozens of pastors, zero YEC.

Only finally about age 16 or 17 was the very first time I heard YEC, and it was a odd sounding preacher on a radio station just a minute after I found it by chance twisting the radio tuning dial.

It was the type of preacher you normally would turn off pretty quickly, because you can tell even before you hear an odd idea he isn't preaching as well as most preachers you've already heard.

But that's not what makes YEC wrong of course. It's for reasons such as I pointed out above. It doesn't seem to be about real faith, for one thing, and also it doesn't really take into account that scripture interprets scripture (but that's more involved to point out why it fails).

 

[Halbhh]

Like what verses are you referring to in particular? Because when I do this I keep coming up with God creating the heavens, the earth, and everything in them in 6 days. I’m not away of any verses that say anything contrary to that interpretation.

Same as me on that.

 

[Tinker Grey]

twisting the radio tuning dial.

Geez, how old are you?

(Kidding, I'm probably older)

 

[d taylor]

Because God made the plants on the third day

You have a verse stating that

 

[Halbhh]

Geez, how old are you?

(Kidding, I'm probably older)

I thought it was cool when at age 13 my great grandfather gave me his old 1963 Rambler that it had push button station set you could adjust.

 

[BNR32FAN]

But that's not what makes YEC wrong of course. It's for reasons such as I pointed out above. It doesn't seem to be about real faith, for one thing, and also it doesn't really take into account that scripture interprets scripture (but that's more involved to point out why it fails).

I think one reason many people don’t accept YEC is because they keep forgetting that creation is a miracle. It’s not supposed to be explainable by science and to believe something that’s not backed by scientific evidence takes more faith than to require scientific evidence in order to believe something.