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Creation-based Science Graduate Programs Anyone?

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Stingerwolf

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Hello. I am searching the world over for a college/university that offers creation perspective science degree programs (graduate level & distance/online courses). So far, I've only found one by the name of Institute for Creation Research (ICR.org). I am awaiting their response as to distance availability. I thought some of you smart and proactive science gurus may have some info for me. Please post, but I'd prefer an email, any information you may have regarding my quest. Thanks & God Bless---Chris
stingerwolf@outgun.com
 

Yahweh Nissi

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Look, our brother has come with a simple question asking for help. If we can help then we should, and if we cannot then we stay silent - he did not come looking for a debate. I am a thiestic evolutionist, so I am not saying this for any tribalistic reasons, just because I think it si the Christian way to behave.

Unfortunately Stinger I cannot help you, but I hope you find what you need.

God Bless,
YN.
 
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Stingerwolf

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Now I know how Darwin's family must feel...if he actually could figure out how to mate! Have any of you checked out the other Creation/Evolution forum room that is open? I posted the same question there and they freaked out! Talk about needing to evolve...or rather grow up.

Anyway, I'll post my same opinion here for you to read if so desired. This is not a debate offer from me. But since so many folks wish to make a debate out of a totally friendly question than I'll post one for you to be happy. Just remember, I don't claim to know everything, and if you do or claim to be able to, than you must be your own religion and I pity that fool that worships you!

Ultimately my stance is that both secular/regular (whatever you wish to title it) AND creation/Christian/Biblical based theories have points of origins, at various levels, that are (in my opinion) unsubstantiated to a large degree. I'm perfectly ok with that simply because I'm ok with admitting I'm not all-knowing and all-learning, never will be, and believe that all of life's mysteries can not and will not be overcome by any scientist, doctor, theologian, pastor, etc.

Some folks have chose one path or another--or neither--and don't ever look back or care to discuss it. While some attempt to modify one to work with the other. And some try to invalidate one or the other in various ways while never looking at their own problems or acknowledging that both are imperfect and don't entirely add up. And some are open that there may be truths in both but don't proclaim to believe or be able to confirm every point (this is me) and most likely sway towards one side. Face it, every human being is partially biased to something, if not everything, that involves choices or opinions.

Both theories have their points, but in my opinion the main stream evolutionary theories, which rely on the father big-bang theories, are way too speculative and they attempt to use speculative findings and ideas as proven facts, rather than calling them what they are. And when it comes down to it, if I have to believe/accept man that has chosen to evolve from a humanistic stance (which changes with the majority, sign of the times, moral degeneration, and countless other conditions) or believe/accept man that at least says he honors, and for the most part has actions that back it up, a God that I have experienced really exists--than I'd be nothing but a rebel-fool to pick man that appears to want to figure God out of their equation. And like it or not, as much as I'd like it to be different, many (not all) of the authors of these secular scientific theories were Godless men and it apparently openly shows in their writings and behavior. And unfortunately that stance has bred thru the mainstream of that particular area of science but it is not known as atheism or agnosticism anymore--it's called science. So there again we have a mixture of science and religion--regardless of the type of religion or lack thereof in claims. So in my opinion the man that operates and propagates such ideas as facts and will not at the very least be open to all the evidence--that can be proven with 100% certainty and/or witnessed to, whether it be historic or laboratory based without error, and whether intentionally or not, does so under a vail of deceit. To recount, they do so either knowing they are deceiving, or do so in ignorance, but deceive none the less.

From an educational and "scientific" theory viewpoint (whether or not you agree of my scientific term usage) I have chosen a way with the creation origin theory and believe most of its ideas and concepts not simply because the Bible history concurs with it (as understood and confirmed by me and those I respect), but because there is not a better explanation thus far, that is not less far-fetched. We all have that choice or right to choose another, or not choose at all. However, some choices if left unmade are indeed choices for one of the original choices. But that is another discussion altogether.
 
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dstine1

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Bushido216 -

Lets not talk about shooting oneself in the foot. HOW is it possible that you believe in evolution and Christianity at the same time? Did you ever once think about what evolution flies in the face of God? If it were possible that evolution was true, then you must understand that the Bible simply becomes a good story-book full of allegories that God HIMSELF asks you to believe as truth... Do you also know that evolution undermines the deity of Christ? Yes, tell me why God would send his own Son into the world to save the world from death, if the world was started from death? Evolution as I am sure you know requires that death occurs to pass on new mutations to make a better "adapted" creature. Again if God played all the creatures, that we see here, into being by DEATH, then why did Christ have to die for something that the Father made and used as a culling tool? There is simply no sense in stating that you are a THEO-EVO you must be one or the other because there is no ground for you to stand upon, my friend! One more thing, can you give me one peice of circumstansial evidence that stands in favor of evolution that creation cannot use also to its benefit? JUST TRY TO!
 
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Lexluther

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Your choice is yours, and that is to be respected. The answer to your question however is that there are no science degrees you can get through ICR or any such outfit that anyone outside of those schools will respect. I would advise doing yourself a favor and getting a real science degree at a real university, because it is the only way that you will ever be able to contribute to human knowledge in any meaningful way. That is why you are going into science, isn't it? And if, once you really understand evolutionary theory, you continue to disbelieve it, your experience with it firsthand will allow you to produce far more convincing counterarguments. Just a thought.

God Bless!
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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dstine1 said:
Bushido216 -

Lets not talk about shooting oneself in the foot. HOW is it possible that you believe in evolution and Christianity at the same time?

Most Christians in the West do. It's only a tiny, vocal, but extreme minority, essentially US based, who invent a conflict.

Did you ever once think about what evolution flies in the face of God?

No it doesn't. Could you explain why you think it does?

If it were possible that evolution was true, then you must understand that the Bible simply becomes a good story-book full of allegories that God HIMSELF asks you to believe as truth

Allegories are true. They are merely not literally true. Where does the Bible say "you must believe everything in here literally"?

Besides; the Bible is a collection of books, and Genesis itself a collection of disparate sources. Why does the allegorical nature of one or more of these sources force an allegorical nature on all the others?

... Do you also know that evolution undermines the deity of Christ? Yes

No. (Sorry, couldn't resist...)

tell me why God would send his own Son into the world to save the world from death, if the world was started from death?

Are you saved from physical death? No. You are saved from spiritual death. Fallacy of equivocation.

Evolution as I am sure you know requires that death occurs to pass on new mutations to make a better "adapted" creature.

No, that's reproduction. The role that death plays in evolution is mainly making room in the world for more generations of individuals. This would surely be true under a creationist scenario too?

Again if God played all the creatures, that we see here, into being by DEATH, then why did Christ have to die for something that the Father made and used as a culling tool?

Again, you are mistakenly equivocating physical and spiritual death. The whole of the NT is about how we become no longer subject to death, and yet we still die physically. Adam is told he will "die" the same day he eats the fruit, and yet he does not die physically that day. No, this equivocation of the two will not do, and makes a nonsense of the Bible.

There is simply no sense in stating that you are a THEO-EVO you must be one or the other because there is no ground for you to stand upon, my friend!

And the spiritual blackmail starts here. Why exactly is there "no ground" in the concept that God is big enough and powerful enough to use evolution as His creative tool?

One more thing, can you give me one peice of circumstansial evidence that stands in favor of evolution that creation cannot use also to its benefit? JUST TRY TO!

Two - human chromosome 2 and retro-viral insertions.
 
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muffler dragon

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Stingerwolf said:
12-4-03

Hello. I am searching the world over for a college/university that offers creation perspective science degree programs (graduate level & distance/online courses). So far, I've only found one by the name of Institute for Creation Research (ICR.org). I am awaiting their response as to distance availability. I thought some of you smart and proactive science gurus may have some info for me. Please post, but I'd prefer an email, any information you may have regarding my quest. Thanks & God Bless---Chris
stingerwolf@outgun.com
ICR's school is accredited now, as are a few other institutions.

If you would like I can get the flier I have at home that shows all of them.

Most of the people there got their degrees from what a number of people on here would call 'real' universities.

Just let me know through PM or otherwise if you would like some guidance as far as schools.
 
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dstine1

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Take one peice or take it all! You cannot pick and choose what you believe is literal and what you believe in an allegory! If you do this then why don't you try some of the other faiths out there that state that Mohamad is the one to believe in. Anyway...The death that I speak of as well as what you speak of are one and the same. Adam and Eve were origionally designed to live and exhist forever on this world in the Garden of Eden. How do I come to this understanding you may ask? First lets look at some things "scientific" - Why do we die? Death, if there were no outside factors, to our bodies comes from aging. In this I mean as we go on in exhistance (multiplication of cells) we loose small amouts of genetic information via tools within our bodies that "snip" a peice of our genetic code each time our cells replicate. Thus when we are 80+ years old we loose the ability to replicate ourselves. If sin had not come into the world and brought with it little things like splisomes and cancers then there would be no reason for our human bodies to live forever constantly replicating themselves. Recently a MD/Phd from the OU medical center determined that if we could releive ourselves of those terrible little splisosomes that we could live forever! Well, he went on to say that was until cancer set in on us! That lovely little mechanism of evolution (sorry couldnt help myself) which causes the loss, mutation, or repositioning of the genetic code that we need to pass on a viable generation. Can you name any cancer that does not result in a delitarious mutation or in death? To go on God himself is an eternal being, like it or not He made all things physical around us, thus speaking if God made man in "His Image" this would not only apply to our soul but also to our physical body. Your inclination to seperate the carnal from God shows your world view that evolution is the way we came into being. Tell me then, friend why then does our soul live on forever whether in this life or the next. IT DOES NOT DIE! We will spend eternity in heaven or hell. If physical death started with creation, then why is it a sin for us to take the life of another (that is in the Bible, you may just not choose to listen to that allegory)? Why was it that when Cain Killed Abel that God put a curse on Him and his progeny? Please answer me a few more questions then...
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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dstine1 said:
Liberal Backslider -

Take one peice or take it all! You cannot pick and choose what you believe is literal and what you believe in an allegory!
Nonsense. Do you take the parable of the sower literally? What about the Good Samaritan? No. We decide what is literal and what is allegory all the time. You say "You cannot pick and choose" but it's pure assertion. You give absolutely no reason why I cannot do so.

If you do this then why don't you try some of the other faiths out there that state that Mohamad is the one to believe in.
Ah. I see. You also falsely equivocate Christianity and Bibliolatry. I don't. I follow Jesus. I'm not as interested in Mohammed because he, whatever else he was, wasn't God incarnate.

Anyway...The death that I speak of as well as what you speak of are one and the same.
I gave reasons why they aren't. You merely assert they are.

Adam and Eve were origionally designed to live and exhist forever on this world in the Garden of Eden. How do I come to this understanding you may ask?
Indeed I may - it's certainly not in the Bible.

First lets look at some things "scientific" - Why do we die? Death, if there were no outside factors, to our bodies comes from aging. In this I mean as we go on in exhistance (multiplication of cells) we loose small amouts of genetic information via tools within our bodies that "snip" a peice of our genetic code each time our cells replicate.
References please.

Thus when we are 80+ years old we loose the ability to replicate ourselves. If sin had not come into the world and brought with it little things like splisomes and cancers then there would be no reason for our human bodies to live forever constantly replicating themselves. Recently a MD/Phd from the OU medical center determined that if we could releive ourselves of those terrible little splisosomes that we could live forever!
Spliceosomes are an essential part of the process (I thank you for telling me they exist - I wasn't previously aware of them). Without them, we cannot extract the coding part of the DNA sequence from the other bits, if I understand it correctly.

Well, he went on to say that was until cancer set in on us! That lovely little mechanism of evolution (sorry couldnt help myself) which causes the loss, mutation, or repositioning of the genetic code that we need to pass on a viable generation. Can you name any cancer that does not result in a delitarious mutation or in death?
Hmmm. Cancer is a condition where cells replicate out of control. Mutation is a process whereby slight changes occur during copying of germ cells. Why do you equate them?

I can certainly name mutations that are beneficial - it can't be more than a few days since the last time I posted a link to nylon-eating bacteria.

To go on God himself is an eternal being, like it or not He made all things physical around us, thus speaking if God made man in "His Image" this would not only apply to our soul but also to our physical body.
You think that God has a physical body like ours?

Your inclination to seperate the carnal from God shows your world view that evolution is the way we came into being. Tell me then, friend why then does our soul live on forever whether in this life or the next. IT DOES NOT DIE!
Souls have nothing to do with evolution. If they exist as you imagine them, evolution does not attempt to address them.

We will spend eternity in heaven or hell. If physical death started with creation, then why is it a sin for us to take the life of another (that is in the Bible, you may just not choose to listen to that allegory)?
Do you equate 'allegory' with 'lie' or 'optional bit'? Why?

Why was it that when Cain Killed Abel that God put a curse on Him and his progeny? Please answer me a few more questions then...
Isn't it a bit obvious why murder is a sin? Do you really need a theological justification for it?
 
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gluadys

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Stingerwolf said:
Ultimately my stance is that both secular/regular (whatever you wish to title it) AND creation/Christian/Biblical based theories have points of origins, at various levels, that are (in my opinion) unsubstantiated to a large degree. I'm perfectly ok with that simply because I'm ok with admitting I'm not all-knowing and all-learning, never will be, and believe that all of life's mysteries can not and will not be overcome by any scientist, doctor, theologian, pastor, etc.

There is such a thing as a philosophy of science, which, like any philosophy, begins with unproven axioms. However, these are basic to the whole enterprise of science, not to any one theory--even a theory of origins. Furthermore, the premises of a philosophy of science are basically derived from Christian theology and not likely to be disputed by Christians.

When we get into specific theories, some are currently unsubstantiated (e.g. string theory) and some are falsified (e.g. phlogiston theory of fire) and some have supportive evidence without any falsification to date (e.g. evolution). Theories about the origin of biodiversity which are based on a literal approach to scripture have been scientifically falsified.

If you want to go into this, just ask. I am perfectly happy to discuss it.


Both theories have their points, but in my opinion the main stream evolutionary theories, which rely on the father big-bang theories, are way too speculative and they attempt to use speculative findings and ideas as proven facts, rather than calling them what they are.

If you think both theories have their [scientific] points, you need to learn more science. If you think there are several "evolutionary theories" you are mis-informed. There is one theory known as the theory of evolution and it is not about physics or chemistry or geology or even abiogenesis. It is about the relationships of diverse species to each other.


And like it or not, as much as I'd like it to be different, many (not all) of the authors of these secular scientific theories were Godless men and it apparently openly shows in their writings and behavior.

And many (not all) were devout Christians.

The point is that they were both people of integrity when it came to science and agreed with the testimony of the artifacts they studied and the experiments they observed.

So there again we have a mixture of science and religion--regardless of the type of religion or lack thereof in claims. So in my opinion the man that operates and propagates such ideas as facts and will not at the very least be open to all the evidence--that can be proven with 100% certainty and/or witnessed to, whether it be historic or laboratory based without error, and whether intentionally or not, does so under a vail of deceit. To recount, they do so either knowing they are deceiving, or do so in ignorance, but deceive none the less.

This is exactly what many of us see creationists doing.
 
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dstine1

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The parable of the sower and samaritan were both told as parables. In the begining God threatened Adam with death if he were to eat of the tree of knowledge. If Adam knew what death was in the garden, and it went on regularly then why was it such a big deal for him to eat from the tree, what secret did it protect, did God view death as "good" in his created world? In addition if the two deaths are not the same then why did Christ need to raise his physical body? Does it serve a purpose? Maybe this is one of those truths that you choose to not believe. Because it is my understanding that Christ died, descended into hell for three days, and rose from the grave. He beat death for us, this does not mean that we will not die (physically) but we will be raised again. This is why the second coming and the resurrection of our bodies from the grave (mentioned in Revelation chapter 20:5 and in I Thesselonians 4:16) is so important. Christ did come to save us from the physical death as well as being sent into the lake of fire. But tell me again, why is Murder a sin if God planned this earth ot be nothing but a slaughter-ground for his creation. Was it his intention to bring all the pain and anguish of death to this world. Something else I might add in reguards to your statement on taking all or none please see Revelation chapter 22:18-19.I would like to say to you on a personal not that I do enjoy throughly reading your posts even if we dont see eye to eye on all levels!

Sincerely

Douglas
 
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gluadys

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dstine1 said:
HOW is it possible that you believe in evolution and Christianity at the same time? Did you ever once think about what evolution flies in the face of God?


Nothing about evolution flies in the face of God. If you think otherwise it is probably because you attribute to evolution ideas which have no connection with it---such as atheism.



If it were possible that evolution was true, then you must understand that the Bible simply becomes a good story-book full of allegories that God HIMSELF asks you to believe as truth...

No, because the bible is a library of books, some of which come themselves from several sources. It already contains many different genres of literature including allegories, oracles, legend, parables, drama, fiction, proverbial wisdom, songs, laws, rituals, teaching and history. The nature of the literature does not affect its truth value.

Now, if evolution is true, then some stories which we have uncritically accepted as historical must no longer be considered in that light. But this actually affects very few stories overall (Genesis 1-11, basically). And moving them out of history into myth does not change their truth value. They are still just as true as they ever were.

Nor does it affect the valid history of other sections of the bible such as the chronicles of the kings of Israel and Judah.



Do you also know that evolution undermines the deity of Christ?

No way.


Yes, tell me why God would send his own Son into the world to save the world from death, if the world was started from death? Evolution as I am sure you know requires that death occurs to pass on new mutations to make a better "adapted" creature.

No it doesn't. A species can give rise to a new species and still continue in existence itself. Each will be adapted to its particular ecological niche.

Again if God played all the creatures, that we see here, into being by DEATH, then why did Christ have to die for something that the Father made and used as a culling tool?

Christ died for our sins. That has nothing to do with evolution.

There is simply no sense in stating that you are a THEO-EVO you must be one or the other because there is no ground for you to stand upon, my friend! One more thing, can you give me one peice of circumstansial evidence that stands in favor of evolution that creation cannot use also to its benefit? JUST TRY TO!

I am not sure what you mean by "cannot use also to its benefit". I can certainly name evidence which is better explained by evolution than by a creationist model. I can name evidence which creationism cannot explain at all.

That is, not scientifically. The creationist model has to resort to miraculous intervention. But that takes us out of the realm of science and ends any debate. You are certainly at liberty to believe in miracles instead of science.
 
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gluadys

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dstine1 said:
Liberal Backslider -

Take one peice or take it all! You cannot pick and choose what you believe is literal and what you believe in an allegory!

Sure I can. And you can. In fact you do. It is part of all forms of biblical interpretation, including the so-called literal method. Everybody makes decisions about what is and is not literal in scripture (or any other text for that matter.)



Adam and Eve were origionally designed to live and exhist forever on this world in the Garden of Eden.

Where does it say that in scripture? Does it not say that they will live forever if they eat from the tree of life?


To go on God himself is an eternal being, like it or not He made all things physical around us, thus speaking if God made man in "His Image" this would not only apply to our soul but also to our physical body.

And where in scripture does it say that it must also apply to our physical body? This is an interpretive reading. Not necessarily false, but interpretive. To justify the interpretation, you need to show how you derive it from the text of scripture.

Tell me then, friend why then does our soul live on forever whether in this life or the next. IT DOES NOT DIE!

There are actually several passages of scripture that speak of the death of the soul. The church imported the idea of an immortal soul from Greek philosophy, not scripture.

We will spend eternity in heaven or hell.

Actually scripture always depicts the redeemed spending eternity on earth. In fact, it says God will come to earth and dwell among us. (Rev. 21:1-3)

As for hell, it says hell will be destroyed in the lake of fire. It does not say anywhere that the unredeemed with live forever in the lake of fire.

If physical death started with creation, then why is it a sin for us to take the life of another (that is in the Bible, you may just not choose to listen to that allegory)? Why was it that when Cain Killed Abel that God put a curse on Him and his progeny? Please answer me a few more questions then...

Surely you know that God has rights we do not. Dying naturally is departing for a time from physical life at God's hands, and God who gave us this life is entitled to take it again. How does that give us the right to take another's life since it was given to her by God?


Finally, I note that every question put was answerable in terms of theology, not science. So none of this has anything to do with evolution. If you think it does, it simply shows that you really have no idea what the theory of evolution even says, much less how it is supported by clear physical evidence. You are lashing out against a scientific theory you do not understand for theological reasons that have no bearing on it.
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider said:
Most Christians in the West do. It's only a tiny, vocal, but extreme minority, essentially US based, who invent a conflict.
I don't know that I would say "extreme" minority unless you only meant they are the ones inventing a conflict and not that only an extreme minority believes in special creation.

"Here are the some of the results of a 1999 Gallup poll on creationism, evolution, and public education:
  • 4% of Americans had no opinion (down from 9% in 1982)
  • 47% believe that God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so
  • 49% believe that human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life.

Of that latter 49%, four fifths (40% of total) believe that God guided the process, and one fifth (9% of total) believe that God had no part in the process. Thus, 87% believe that a supreme being created humans either directly or indirectly.

One interpretation of the Gallup poll is that (to the nearest 5%):
  • 45% of Americans believe in creationism
  • 40% of Americans believe in God-guided evolution but reject the "theory of evolution
  • 10% of Americans believe in the naturalistic theory of evolution, i.e., neo-Darwinism
  • 5% are undecided

However, the poll was specifically about the teaching of evolution of the, not about one's general beliefs, so this interpretation may not be accurate."



Peace and Love to you all in the boundless name of Jesus Christ.
 
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dstine1 said:
Bushido216 -

Lets not talk about shooting oneself in the foot. HOW is it possible that you believe in evolution and Christianity at the same time? Did you ever once think about what evolution flies in the face of God? If it were possible that evolution was true, then you must understand that the Bible simply becomes a good story-book full of allegories that God HIMSELF asks you to believe as truth... Do you also know that evolution undermines the deity of Christ? Yes, tell me why God would send his own Son into the world to save the world from death, if the world was started from death? Evolution as I am sure you know requires that death occurs to pass on new mutations to make a better "adapted" creature. Again if God played all the creatures, that we see here, into being by DEATH, then why did Christ have to die for something that the Father made and used as a culling tool? There is simply no sense in stating that you are a THEO-EVO you must be one or the other because there is no ground for you to stand upon, my friend! One more thing, can you give me one peice of circumstansial evidence that stands in favor of evolution that creation cannot use also to its benefit? JUST TRY TO!

It is a fallacy to say that evolution is founded on death. Evolution is dependent on reproduction and rearrangement of genes. This is dependent on life itself, not death. Extinction is founded on death, evolution isn't.
Christ died to save us from sin and gain for us the crown of life. His kingdom continues to evolve. It will not be complete until the last day. If we believe in one time instantaneous creation, then what is the need for reproduction? Why could God not create His glorified kingdom all at once? God chose to create through reproduction and evolution. It is not for me to ask why, but to simply live is awe of a Holy God.

This is my opinion of evolution. It is God ordained. I see evidence for evolution in the world. I know that God exists, so God must have created by evolution, as nothing can go against His will.

Evolution is just a world view; however, and world views change. It would not hurt me in the least, if evolution was proved to be false, but that must be done with evidence, not simple conjecture based on fallacious arguments.

I would also ask the evolutionists in this forum to be respectful of their brother and sister creationists. Please fight fallacy with evidence, not derision.
 
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