Creation and Imperfection

[bhar]

We've all been taught that the Garden of Eden was perfect until man fell. Over the years I've been at an impasse regarding the plain logic of God and Creation, and their mutually exclusive qualities. Here's what I think is my premise in syllogism form:

Only God is perfect,
Creation is not God,
Therefore, Creation is imperfect.

I usually get responses like..."well God created everything 'perfectly', so, uh... it must have been perfect. Then they add..."and us wicked sinners came along and ruined it all." But that doesn't undo the logic. Since God is infinite and perfect in every way, then He is infinitely perfect. Anything less than infinite (creation), is almost infinitely less in perfection. God cannot create something (out of nothing) and have IT be God, or like Himself. God cannot create Himself. He BEGAT the Son in the Incarnation, and that's different. And in creating the material universe, God gave every element a half-life, and all elements are entropic - breaking down. God doesn't change, so God cannot be Creation...Creation cannot be perfect in the material sense.
On the moral side, Adam and Eve were like the angels who were created before them - subject to free will and the possibility of choosing sin (some chose to sin). It is impossible for God to choose to sin, since He and only He is perfect. So the question is: did man (or the angels) first sin because they were INHERINTLY imperfect, that is, defected upon their creation ?
I argue that their imperfection comes before disobedience - Adam and Eve and the bad angels sinned ultimately because they were inherintly imperfect, not just disobedient.

In another way, sin is an inevitable function of creation. Another point is from the perspective of the Trinity...there was never a time when the Father and the Spirit "chose" the Son to be the Savior of mankind - God is the same always in eternity. Therefore, the Son was always "Savior", as it were...even before creation. Therefore, the Son, being Savior, 'required' something to save...a.k.a., imperfect creation and mankind. So actually, God was always "saving" long before mankind arrived...outside of time. So I think the argument produces a clear symbiosis: inherintly imperfect mankind needs a Savior, and God "needs" to save something imperfect.

Though you may disagree with the conclusions, I cannot defeat the original syllogism. Any responses?

 

[LWB]

When God rested to admire what he created, I'm pretty sure he simply said it was good, not perfect. Like an artist standing back to see if everything is in proportion and proper perspective, before moving onto the later stages of the painting.

 

[Idontlikeobama]

God did create everything perfect, but then gave Adam and Eve free will. He was testing them. They failed.

 

[ghendricks63]

We've all been taught that the Garden of Eden was perfect until man fell. Over the years I've been at an impasse regarding the plain logic of God and Creation, and their mutually exclusive qualities. Here's what I think is my premise in syllogism form:

Only God is perfect,
Creation is not God,
Therefore, Creation is imperfect.

I usually get responses like..."well God created everything 'perfectly', so, uh... it must have been perfect. Then they add..."and us wicked sinners came along and ruined it all." But that doesn't undo the logic. Since God is infinite and perfect in every way, then He is infinitely perfect. Anything less than infinite (creation), is almost infinitely less in perfection. God cannot create something (out of nothing) and have IT be God, or like Himself. God cannot create Himself. He BEGAT the Son in the Incarnation, and that's different. And in creating the material universe, God gave every element a half-life, and all elements are entropic - breaking down. God doesn't change, so God cannot be Creation...Creation cannot be perfect in the material sense.
On the moral side, Adam and Eve were like the angels who were created before them - subject to free will and the possibility of choosing sin (some chose to sin). It is impossible for God to choose to sin, since He and only He is perfect. So the question is: did man (or the angels) first sin because they were INHERINTLY imperfect, that is, defected upon their creation ?
I argue that their imperfection comes before disobedience - Adam and Eve and the bad angels sinned ultimately because they were inherintly imperfect, not just disobedient.

In another way, sin is an inevitable function of creation. Another point is from the perspective of the Trinity...there was never a time when the Father and the Spirit "chose" the Son to be the Savior of mankind - God is the same always in eternity. Therefore, the Son was always "Savior", as it were...even before creation. Therefore, the Son, being Savior, 'required' something to save...a.k.a., imperfect creation and mankind. So actually, God was always "saving" long before mankind arrived...outside of time. So I think the argument produces a clear symbiosis: inherintly imperfect mankind needs a Savior, and God "needs" to save something imperfect.

Though you may disagree with the conclusions, I cannot defeat the original syllogism. Any responses?

I am of the opinion that the story of the garden of Eden is metaphorical rather than literal. I believe it takes God's creative will and His relationship with His creation and condenses it into a story that we can refelct upon and understand. I believe the dabate raging over whether it was meant to be taken literally actually distracts from focusing on the principles intended within the story. Very much like the parables Jesus told...the idea is to learn the moral of the story rather than question if it happened or not.

Was man and creation perfect before "the fall"? I think this is a great question you ask. I am not sure the bible ever makes the claim they were. It is true that God declared that they were "good". But does this imply that perfection? I think not. Since scripture tells us Jesus was slated to die before the foundations of Earth were even laid...I think what God declared as good was that He had set into motion a way to fellowship and spend eternity with His imperfect creation. It IS GOOD that Jesus can take the inherently imperfect...us...and provide a way through HIS perfection.

 

[GadFly]

The problem with trying to explain creation is that we keep speaking of creation in the past tense as if it was concluded in the Garden of Eden. Jesus Christ was present at the beginning of the creation of man as God said "let us make man in our image" in Genesis. At the end of creation Christ said "I am the beginning and the end" in the Revolation of Jesus Christ. This is the view of Christ on creation. In other words, the creation process is not finished as yet and when the process is finished, the end result will be perfection.

After putting creation in proper perspective, the point of view of Christ, many of the problems in explaining good and evil, sin and obedience, and determinism and free will are simpler to explain. Whether you know it or not, you and mankind are still a work in progress. We all die as mortal but we rise as immortal within the plan of God. Paul refereed to this creation process in 2Thes:2:13 "......God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" which also identifies how God ends his creation in you. To be made perfect in the future tense of creation, what must you do? The answer Christ gave: "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth" (Jn:4:24).Paul and Christ were in agreement on creation and all that remains is for all of us to agree with them.

 

[Bernie02]

Only God is perfect,
Creation is not God,
Therefore, Creation is imperfect.

Though you may disagree with the conclusions, I cannot defeat the original syllogism. Any responses?

Why would creation have to be "God" to be perfect? I'm not seeing the connection.

God cannot create something (out of nothing) and have IT be God, or like Himself.

Why not? How are you able to know this?

...in creating the material universe, God gave every element a half-life, and all elements are entropic - breaking down. God doesn't change, so God cannot be Creation...Creation cannot be perfect in the material sense.

How does the fact that elements have a half life and decay lead you to the conclusion that matter is imperfect? Why couldn't matter's changeability be a part of the perfection of natural law? Just curious, are you searching out a path to discounting Jesus' deity?

...did man (or the angels) first sin because they were INHERINTLY imperfect, that is, defected upon their creation ?
I argue that their imperfection comes before disobedience - Adam and Eve and the bad angels sinned ultimately because they were inherintly imperfect, not just disobedient.

I don't feel you've given an argument strong enough to provide warrant for this belief. I understand that the OP was a starting point, that you may have more weight to add as discussion is furthered, but I don't yet see enough reason to for concluding that the creation was created with inherent imperfection.

 

[GadFly]

Why would creation have to be "God" to be perfect? I'm not seeing the connection.


Why not? How are you able to know this?


How does the fact that elements have a half life and decay lead you to the conclusion that matter is imperfect? Why couldn't matter's changeability be a part of the perfection of natural law? Just curious, are you searching out a path to discounting Jesus' deity?


I don't feel you've given an argument strong enough to provide warrant for this belief. I understand that the OP was a starting point, that you may have more weight to add as discussion is furthered, but I don't yet see enough reason to for concluding that the creation was created with inherent imperfection.

Actually you can not say a work of art is either perfect or imperfect until it is finished. Therefore any conclusion the OP or anybody else makes about God's creation is premature, don't you think? We should be discussing the process that is still going on.

 

[Bernie02]

Actually you can not say a work of art is either perfect or imperfect until it is finished. Therefore any conclusion the OP or anybody else makes about God's creation is premature, don't you think? We should be discussing the process that is still going on.

I see your point, but it appears bhar has in mind to discuss a certain aspect of the creation. The view that creation is still going on is another discussion, really.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

There is also the line of thinking that God didn't create everything perfect, rather God created everything with the capacity to grow. Adam and Eve weren't created complete, as-is, but rather as persons with the capacity to mature and grow into what they could be. The purpose of all creation is in Christ, by whom and for whom all things were made.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Chris81]

The problem with trying to explain creation is that we keep speaking of creation in the past tense as if it was concluded in the Garden of Eden. Jesus Christ was present at the beginning of the creation of man as God said "let us make man in our image" in Genesis. At the end of creation Christ said "I am the beginning and the end" in the Revolation of Jesus Christ. This is the view of Christ on creation. In other words, the creation process is not finished as yet and when the process is finished, the end result will be perfection.

After putting creation in proper perspective, the point of view of Christ, many of the problems in explaining good and evil, sin and obedience, and determinism and free will are simpler to explain. Whether you know it or not, you and mankind are still a work in progress. We all die as mortal but we rise as immortal within the plan of God. Paul refereed to this creation process in 2Thes:2:13 "......God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" which also identifies how God ends his creation in you. To be made perfect in the future tense of creation, what must you do? The answer Christ gave: "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth" (Jn:4:24).Paul and Christ were in agreement on creation and all that remains is for all of us to agree with them.

I completely agree, God is the creator not the one time creator. What he began with Adam and Eve he will finish through the resurrection of his followers and in the new eternal state of the new Heaven and the new Earth. Likewise we have been conceived in sin but through the power of our faith in Christ we are undergoing the process of sanctification to be formed into new creations bearing the likeness of God in our hearts, minds, thoughts, and actions. While humanity may be still selfish, sinful, and wicked this is not the end result of his creation. Christ is at work to redeem his creation and make perfect, all will be accomplished at the appointed time. While we should recognize God's work to perfect his ongoing creation, let us not forget the new creation for which Christ is performing in our own heart and soul.

 

[ebia]

What exactly do we mean by 'perfect'?

 

[GadFly]

What exactly do we mean by 'perfect'?

When discussing Biblical creation, we do not get to give our own definition and we must follow the reasoning based on the scriptures. IMO we depend on Christ for our righteousness as we admit that our righteousness does not exist. Our perfection also depends on Christ and when our transformation process is complete in Him, we will be perfect but you must be in Christ to be part of perfection. In this sense perfection is to be one with Christ. It is a spiritual thing. The world or society does not know the definition of perfection and will always be critical of what God is creating, a process.

 

[GadFly]

I see your point, but it appears bhar has in mind to discuss a certain aspect of the creation. The view that creation is still going on is another discussion, really.

I disagree with you since discussing truth as revealed in the scriptures is alway on topic. The only way to discuss Biblical creation is to firs define what is creation and then discuss what is perfection. That is the title of the thread, creation and perfection. The idea I present is not new as it has been in the Bible all along but individual theologians who want to put their own views on creation some times overlook the real truth. Those who insist to speak of creation in the past tense are out of touch with what God said about creation. What scripture verses would you offer to disagree with this old Bible theory?

 

[solarwave]

I agree that Genesis says the earth was good, then very good, but never said it was perfect. The change from good to very good shows that there was a degree of change in Creation in its amount of goodness. Because of this it could be the case that the lack of perfection in Adam and Eve led to the Fall.

All that being said, I don't think the Genesis Creation story is literal anyway.

Also to do with perfection, I think the word has to be defined first. It could have been the case that the creation was perfect, but in a different sense from God being perfect. You can think of the perfect circle, in that it is everything a circle should be. A perfect Creation generally means it is without fault.... fault generally being pain, suffering, sin or anything that could lead to it.

 

[Bernie02]

What scripture verses would you offer to disagree with this old Bible theory?

Where did you read in my post that I disagreed with what you contend for?

 

[Dark_Lite]

We've all been taught that the Garden of Eden was perfect until man fell.

There is nothing in Genesis to suggest that the earth was created "perfect."