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Creation and evolution debate

Jimlarmore

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This is so absurd, it says nothing about God being the light. Your statement is that God is the source of all light, but by that reasoning He would also be the source of all darkness. You assert God is omnipresent yet you station him above the earth so that it rotates around Him as He remains fairly stationary to the earth so that it equals a 24 hour period.

Your verbage indicates you may not even believe in God because you seem to want to limit what God can do. I would expect this type of response from my agnostic opponents but not from a Christian brother. My illustration was merely a speculation on my part about how God could have did the evening and morning thing. I honestly don't know how He did it but I believe there was an evening and a morning as the Bible says there was. The ability of God to be omnipresent wouldn't exclude God as the light source being in one spot and yet as the all powerful Omniscient creator being every where else as well.

Then you say you can tell the difference between literal and symbolic. Well that is certainly questionable. Is the serpent in the story literal or symbolic. No you can't tell you only take tradition and you will then say that it is both, a literal talking snake who is symbolic of Satan because it was actually Satan.

I believe satan spoke thru the serpent yes. Do I believe there was a literal serpent who tempted and deceived Eve, yes I do. I think if satan had appeared in his true form Eve would have known to avoid him. The serpent before sin was a beautiful creature capable of flying according to the SOP. Eve was attracted by the beauty of not only the tree of knowledge but by the beautiful animal that rested in it's branches.

It is interesting to see the fundamentalist who always assume that there is not need for Christ or salvation if one does not believe all the Old Testament stories are literal. It amounts to their arrogance that their own view is the only possible view. It is silly. I was writing an article on the subject you can read the first two parts at this link.
http://newprotestants.com/ecc.html

Sorry I have read enough of your web-site to not want to go back and read more, no offense.

The Bible stands or falls as a unit my friend. The whole Bible speaks of the love of God for a fallen mankind. It also speaks and lifts up God and His plan of salvation. The first verse to show this is Gen 3:15 but the entire Bible screams of Christ and what He is all about. If you reject the OT's prophecies that point to Christ how can you accept Christ as the messiah or the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world? If you reject the symbolism of the sacificial system that is a shadow of what Christ would eventually do, then how can you accept the actual event as being anything other than a good man who was executed? If you can't accept fiat creation how could you accept the feeding of the 5,000 or the raising from the dead of Lazarus and the young maiden?

There are many symbolic things in the Bible for instance I believe that there is a literal historic account of Elijah, a symbolic Elijah that came in the form of John the baptist and I believe there will be a last day Elijah that will be realized by the remnant church of God just before He comes back the 2nd time. So that makes three Elijahs. The Bible is full of this sort of thing. However, that does not make the literal/historical account of Elijah any less real.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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Your verbage indicates you may not even believe in God because you seem to want to limit what God can do. I would expect this type of response from my agnostic opponents but not from a Christian brother. My illustration was merely a speculation on my part about how God could have did the evening and morning thing. I honestly don't know how He did it but I believe there was an evening and a morning as the Bible says there was. The ability of God to be omnipresent wouldn't exclude God as the light source being in one spot and yet as the all powerful Omniscient creator being every where else as well.

No completely wrong, I think God is an intelligent and capable being you does not behave stupidly. You have asserted that He behaves foolishly just because "well God could do that". Why pray tell is your speculation about God's activity of creation more appropriate then my non literal speculation? The answer is because you refuse to question your beliefs and reject any other views, yet pretend that it is you who is open minded.
Sorry I have read enough of your web-site to not want to go back and read more, no offense.

None taken I understand the fundamentalist mind it refuses to see logic and then pretends that it has the only correct view of things. So please if you can't be bothered to read, don't assert that one cannot reconcile Christianity or salvation. The fact is you can't tolerate even taking the time to understand a view different then your fundamentalism.
An old preacher said it correctly a long time agao. He said God said in the Bible and I believe it.

Really did you hear God say it? Is there any evidence that God said it? No what you have done is said God said and it and then you believe in what you said God said.

I never indicated the fact that man becoming evil took God by surprize that is your words. My statement was
about God saying He was sorry He ever made man. This experiment in sin was known by the all knowing mind of God from the start of it to the finish. Many times things are said and written down for man's benefit. Please don't presume to understand the mind of God my friend.

Oh please, first it is you who claim God said it and you believe it. I have said that the story can be taken in ways other then literally and that the purpose of the stories is for our benefit. It it is literalism which would make one say that evil caught God by surprise, not my method of interpretation that is your method, or at least your method when it is convenient for you, dig a little deeper and we see the fundamentalist squirm and say well it was written for our benefit it was not what God really thought. Amazing.
 
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Jimlarmore

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I can't see any reason to continue this discussion RC. Our differences are unreconcilable and tangentially opposed to each other. Besides the discussion has deteriorated to making insultive statements and I don't want to take part in that.

I will pray for you brother. I know you think I am deluded and thats ok, maybe I am. They say that those who are deceived do not know that they are. I pray each time I read and study God's word for wisdom to rightly discern what He has for me there. I also pray for the ability to know what is right and what is wrong. I try not to read anything into the Bible that isn't there or take away the truths it presents.

I wish you happiness and good health.

May God Bless you and yours
Jim Larmore
 
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mva1985

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While not really on the creation topic. I was just watching a show where two babies were born. I was at the birth of my two boys and would not exchange that experience for anything in the world. From witnessing the births of my boys it is very hard for me to see how people can't believe that there is a God.

The birth of a human life in my opinion is one of the greatest witnesses to the existence of an all powerful God.
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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I will pray for you brother. I know you think I am deluded and thats ok, maybe I am. They say that those who are deceived do not know that they are. I pray each time I read and study God's word for wisdom to rightly discern what He has for me there. I also pray for the ability to know what is right and what is wrong. I try not to read anything into the Bible that isn't there or take away the truths it presents.

The serpent before sin was a beautiful creature capable of flying according to the SOP. Eve was attracted by the beauty of not only the tree of knowledge but by the beautiful animal that rested in it's branches.

You must not try very hard. Perhaps you can show me where the serpent before sin could fly? Remember you claim to follow the literal story, does it ever say she was attracted by the beauty of the serpent. No, merely the attempt to fill in the holes so that the story can be taken literally because you don't want to take it literally the way it is written, yet you complain about those who don't take it literally, the hypocrisy is notable.

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?" 2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "
4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
 
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Jimlarmore

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When God cursed the serpent He said "upon your belly you shall go and dust shall be your food all the days of your life". This statement indicates the serpent had a higher form of physiology until God changed it at that time to make him go on his belly. Does it say he could fly? No, I got that from the SOP ( Patriachs and Prophets I think ). But I think it's reasonable to conclude his belly was not his original way of getting around and flying cannot be excluded.

Also in Gen 3:1 the word subtle used to describe the serpent is also interpreted to mean crafty, which has in the hebrew a meaning of alluring one to them. Does this say she was attracted by the animals beauty per se'? No, but it certainly does not exclude it.

You've made accusations that I don't want to see alternative interpretations of the Bible than what it literally says yet I have shown quite the opposite when I spoke of the three Elijah's. If you feel the only good way to defend your position is to put your opponent's ability to use logic down then go for it.
In the end that technique only serves to weaken your credibilty.

If I have insulted you in any way I apologize. I refuse to go foward in this discussion with you any further if you go on resorting to that kind of dialog. If you want to talk about specifics then let's talk otherwise I will not address you further on this. I may make a statement but it will not be addressed to you.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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When God cursed the serpent He said "upon your belly you shall go and dust shall be your food all the days of your life". This statement indicates the serpent had a higher form of physiology until God changed it at that time to make him go on his belly. Does it say he could fly? No, I got that from the SOP ( Patriachs and Prophets I think ). But I think it's reasonable to conclude his belly was not his original way of getting around and flying cannot be excluded.

You can read whatever you want into the story, I was just pointing out that that is what you did even when you said you tried not too. The more likely explanation to the story is that it describes man's view of the serpent. It crawls on it's belly and in general there is enmity between the snake and people. It describes the world that was present and well known at the time when the story was written. Whether you think it could fly or hop like a bunny or had 2,4,6,8 legs or swung by it's tongue is beside the point.

It is also beside the point whether you think you are being insulted because you have trouble dealing with your own fundamentalism. Truth is the best defense and I think I have been able to back up the statements I have made. I don't take you statements as insults even though saying you feel sorry for me is clearly meant to put me down because I am not on the hunt for insults and for reasons to avoid examining the issues. And that has for many years been the difference between the Progressive Adventist and the Traditional Adventist.

You've made accusations that I don't want to see alternative interpretations of the Bible than what it literally says yet I have shown quite the opposite when I spoke of the three Elijah's.

I have no idea what your exposition on the 3 Elijah's has to do with your being unwilling to even read what I wrote as a way of answering the idea that without the literal interpretation of Genesis creation story one could see a need for salvation or Christ. I am guessing you think because you can assign symbology to different things that that makes you open to read about various views, but I don't really know.
 
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Jimlarmore

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It is also beside the point whether you think you are being insulted because you have trouble dealing with your own fundamentalism. Truth is the best defense and I think I have been able to back up the statements I have made. I don't take you statements as insults even though saying you feel sorry for me is clearly meant to put me down because I am not on the hunt for insults and for reasons to avoid examining the issues. And that has for many years been the difference between the Progressive Adventist and the Traditional Adventist.

I think digressive is probably the more appropriate label. I posted these statements or reasonable facsmile's on another thread.

How can you be progressive in the faith when you deny the very foudational truths of God's Holy Word? How can you be progressive in the faith when you deny the power of God to perform fiat creation or to inspire holy men of God to accurately write literal events in the past? How can you be progressive in the faith when you deny the validity of a literal global flood or a 6 day creation? How can you be progressive in the faith when you deny the accuracy or invalidate the accuracy of Biblical prophecies?

I could go on and on!!!!


without the literal interpretation of Genesis creation story one could see a need for salvation or Christ.

Without the literal interpretation of the Genesis Creation story and man's subsequent fall to sin there would be no need for Christ to start with. Only after sin entered the world was a savior needed.
I am guessing you think because you can assign symbology to different things that that makes you open to read about various views, but I don't really know.

I know the Bible is full of symbology. Some of the literal events that happened can be taken symbolically as well as literal. For instance in the Elijah story , Elijah was ordered to go hide by a brook at Cherith and God sent ravens to feed him there. I believe this literally happened but I also think it is symbolic of God's remnant people having to hide during the time of trouble when we will be totally dependent on God for our food and water. There are many other things about the life of Elijah that is symbolic of events to come for us yet I believe they were literal as well.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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Without the literal interpretation of the Genesis Creation story and man's subsequent fall to sin there would be no need for Christ to start with. Only after sin entered the world was a savior needed.

So you are telling me that unless someone knows the Genesis story they have no need for Christ to begin with no need for a Saviour until you tell them about the fundamentalist view of origins. Well that should show the flaw in your interpretation, even in the stories of the patriarchs they had nothing of the Genesis account yet all whether they communed with God or with pagan gods felt the need of a god. When your view is so different from the reality we see it really is necessary to re-evaluate your presumptions.
 
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djconklin

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I have been reading this debate on a couple of dozen message boards across the spectrum of the internet. I don't think I have ever seen anyone from either side persuade anyone from the opposing side to change their mind.

Quite true as T&O pointed out.

The thrust of my point was that because both sides haven't adequately defined their terms they don't even realize that they are talking past each other.
 
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djconklin

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Well that should show the flaw in your interpretation, even in the stories of the patriarchs they had nothing of the Genesis account yet all whether they communed with God or with pagan gods felt the need of a god.

Please try again; that doesn't make sense.
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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Please try again; that doesn't make sense.
Sorry DJ, I have never found it worthwhile to explain things to you. But I will say for you, in all history there has been a desire to commune with God, it is found in every ancient society. I guess I should also point out that there is no evidence that the Genesis account was handed down to people before it was written down. But of course the fundamentalist will say that it was all handed down so they all new everything that is recorded in Genesis. Another example of their faith statements though more accurately it is simply another of the probably flawed fundamentalist presuppositions.
 
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djconklin

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I guess I should also point out that there is no evidence that the Genesis account was handed down to people before it was written down.

Actually, people who have studied these things says that it is an oral tradition that was later written down. And others have noticed the repetition of "these are the generations" as indicators that they to were handed down orally.
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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Actually, people who have studied these things says that it is an oral tradition that was later written down. And others have noticed the repetition of "these are the generations" as indicators that they to were handed down orally.
But it is merely conjecture and not all that likely. Now it is true that you can find people who dwell upon speculation, but that is not really a very convincing way to argue. If you look at those who research the early Hebrew beliefs you will find that they are very much the same as the rest of the ancient world and not really indicative of the way that many Christians try to paint the ancient Hebrews.

Of course the point here is that no matter the beliefs there is a nearly universal concept of a need to commune with God. There is an interesting book on the subject called "Creation of the Sacred Tracks of Biology in Early Religions" by Walter Burkert. Aside from the interesting cultural and sociology and archeology his idea is that there is a biological reason for the need of religion and the idea of God in humans. I think there could be a good case for that view, in any case the view of a need for God is not predicated upon an literal view of Genesis creation story.
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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Since many here probably don't get Adventist Today's Newletter I will post a section from today's newletter. It will probably take a few posts"
---------
Review of the REVIEW A review of ...
God's man, Darwin
By Clifford Goldstein, Adventist Review website.
“Let’s get hypothetical and pretend that the Genesis Creation account was never meant to be taken literally. Although God was communicating with us about the work of creation, suppose the texts themselves were to be understood metaphorically, symbolically, nothing more. Given that premise, what, then, was the Creator seeking to reveal about our origins? Two points, even in a broad and liberal reading of Genesis 1, come through. First, look at these verses: [Quotes from] (Gen. 1:3, 9, 11, 26, 27, KJV). Everything was planned, precise, calculated; nothing random, arbitrary, chancy. It would take a Dadaist interpretation to derive randomness out of Genesis 1. Second, look at these: [Quotes from] (verses 21, 24, 25). The texts reveal unambiguously that each creature was made after its own kind; that is, each one was made separately and distinctly from the others. Even from a nonliteralist interpretation of Genesis, two points are obvious: nothing was random in the act of creation, and there was no common ancestry for the species. Now, along comes Darwinian evolution, which in its various incarnations teaches two things: randomness and common ancestry for all species. How, then, does one interpret Genesis through a theory that, at its most basic level, contradicts Genesis at its most basic level? If evolution were true, it would mean that for thousands of years (from the Israelite period up through and beyond the Protestant Reformation) the Lord’s church was kept in darkness regarding human origins, until God, in His infinite wisdom, raised up His divinely appointed one, Charles Darwin, an atheist, to finally reveal the truth about the proper interpretation of Genesis. And though we shouldn’t judge someone in the nineteenth century by our standards today, God’s man Darwin also held racist views that would make David Duke look like an ACLU lawyer. Even worse, thanks to Darwin and his theory of human descent, racism had now been given a ‘scientific’ rationale. Finally, many of Darwin’s teachings are rejected by evolutionists today. Even Richard Dawkins (the most vociferous of the evolution apologists) wrote: ‘Much of what Darwin said is, in detail, wrong.’ So, if evolution were true, then the Lord used an atheist racist with detailed errors in his teaching as the divinely appointed one to finally set the church straight on the book of Genesis and our origins. I don’t know, but if Charles Darwin were right, it would seem that the One who is ‘the Word’ (John 1:1), the One who created language, could have done a much better job of communicating with us than He did. Why inspire a creation account that teaches nonrandomness and a noncommon ancestry of all species when God used randomness and a common ancestry as His means of creation? Am I being a closed-minded, right-wing dogmatic intellectual bigot not to see something radically wrong here? Though I disagree with those who don’t read Genesis literally, their position is not absurd. What is absurd is to read an evolutionary schema into a biblical account that, even with a broad and free interpretation, denies it at the most fundamental level” [Op-ed].

Editorial comments: Cliff Goldstein in his AR print-blog states that even a "broad and liberal" or non-literal reading of Genesis 1 forbids any randomness or common ancestry in the creation of living things whereas Darwinian evolutionary theory affirms both. Although this column was posted earlier in the summer, clarifying some issues is a worthwhile endeavor.
Creation accounts in the Hebrew Bible

Rather than only one literalistic Genesis creation account, numerous Bible students and scholars see two detailed and differing creation accounts in Genesis 1-2:3 and 2:4-25 (continuing in chapter 3). In addition, there are seven other creation accounts elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible. Far from being literalistic, all of them are vividly diverse portrayals of God's primordial creative work, how he acted, and in what order, and each account is richly marked by non-literal, metaphoric, and parabolic language and imagery. There have been Christians throughout the centuries, long before modern science, which have recognized aspects of this.

Furthermore, there is nothing in Genesis 1 or any of other Hebrew creation accounts that even addresses let alone forbids the following phenomena. (a) The randomness of genetic mutations is well-observed but the fixation and loss rates of beneficial and deleterious mutations within populations under natural selection are vastly non-random. (b) Speciation, or the evolution of new species, occurs through the erection of reproductive, chromosomal, geographic, or behavioral barriers within populations severing once common gene pools into separate gene pools, and ultimately separate species. (c) Many extant species of living things once shared common ancestral gene pools as evidenced by numerous shared, derived genetic changes. (d) Discovering more functions within the vast non-coding DNA in genomes is fully consistent with the common ancestry of species as has been pointed out by some evolutionary biologists for more than a decade. (e) Complex adaptations in morphology, physiology, coloration, and behavior of numerous extant species are specific adaptive responses to local selective constraints, resulting in non-random genetic fixation of these traits in new species.
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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Whether and at what level extant living species share one or several common ancestral species, other processes are at work (such as horizontal gene transfer, genomic duplication, common mechanisms like "hot spots" at some loci rather than common ancestry, etc.), they present us with explicit hypotheses that continue to be tested in the emerging age of genomics. However, even in evolving new species, every individual is always born "after his kind” with some changes. The question of the origin of new species is not even addressed in Genesis 1 or in any other creation account in the Hebrew Scriptures.

Contrary to some culture warriors of the right and the left, acknowledging these phenomena does not do away with God, make life a meaningless accident, or remove purpose from the universe. For many who are Christians (including Adventist Christians) and scientists, observing life's resilient adaptiveness in the face of adversity reveals the grandeur of creation and constitutes real evidence of the genius of our Creator.

What Darwin didn't know
Cliff quotes from "Memes: The New Replicators" in Richard Dawkins' The Selfish Gene (1976): "Much of what Darwin said is, in detail, wrong." But Cliff fails to take in the historical context. As careful, exhaustive, and observant a naturalist as Charles Darwin was, he knew nothing about Mendelian genetics, discovered by Gregor Mendel several decades later. Darwin believed in blending inheritances, instead of the atomistic, particulate inheritance of Mendelian factors (i.e., alleles of genes). In fact, natural selection cannot operate on blending inheritances, but works very predictably with well-worked out mathematical models on allelic inheritance. Expansions of these models underlie modern molecular genetics and the exploding fields of genomics and bioinformatics. The adaptive, non-random shaping of life by natural selection is evident throughout the living world. Like questions in physics or cosmology, the details will be resolved by researching the growing scientific data. An exciting development would be strong evidence that there were more independent common ancestors than currently thought! A forest of life rather than a tree of life! Darwin himself asserted the possibility of more than one common ancestor in the closing paragraph of Origin of Species.


An atheist?
First, it is simply mistaken to claim that Darwin was an atheist. Besides concluding Origin of Species with a reference to life "having been originally breathed by the Creator," Darwin varied in his description of himself as a "theist" or as an "agnostic" respectively depending on whether he thought of the wonderful intricacy of life or considered the problem of evil. The death of his beloved 12 year old daughter, Annie, rendered his struggle poignantly difficult.


A racist?
Far from being the backward racist comparable to David Duke that Cliff describes, Darwin (although a product of his time in many ways) was quite progressive in his historical context. This was an age when many Christian and political leaders held that the races of people of color were different species, mentally inferior, not truly human, harmful to intermarry with, condemned because of sinfulness by the curse of Ham, fixed forever separate and inferior by God to be dominated by whites, and were the product of human-animal interbreeding. The more reactionary defended as Biblical the slavery of Africans, and the genocide and ethnic cleansing of American Indians. The subjugation of women was a given. The more progressive, for example Abraham Lincoln at a earlier stage, still insisted on innate African inferiority, denounced political and social equality, and defended laws forbidding intermarriage.(1) By contrast, Charles Darwin (although he used the common terms “barbarian” and “savage” to describe indigenous peoples including our ancestors) vehemently condemned slavery ,(2) held that people of all races are part of the one human species, all of one ancestral stock, essentially equal in every way, that racial differences are biologically overlapping and insignificant, that differences in ability are greater within races than between them, and that intermarriage has no ill effects. Hardly the ideas of a 19th century racist!


Slavery apologists aside, Darwin also compares favorably with the founders of the Adventist church, some of whom had mild abolitionist sympathies, but were also productsof their time. Along the same line as the contemporary author Buckner Payne,(3) Ellen White wrote that “the base crime of amalgamation of man and beast which defaced the image of God, and caused confusion everywhere” was the main cause of the flood and was repeated post-flood as is evident “in the almost endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men.” (4) While some Adventist scholars have struggled since then to interpret the meaning of these quotations, the Review and Herald editor, Uriah Smith, felt no such hesitancy. In an apologetic book on Ellen White’s ministry, he defended this view arguing that “naturalists affirm that the line of demarkation between the human and animal races is lost in confusion” and argued that White’s critics could be “easily silenced by… such cases as the wild Bushmen of Africa, some tribes of the Hottentots, and perhaps the Digger Indians of our own country.”(5, 6) Of course, there is not a shred of biological evidence we realize today to support Smith's claims. Also, in a smaller vein to Francis Galton in England (a relative of Darwin's), Dr. John Harvey Kellogg was an active figure in the American eugenics movement and the push for “race hygiene” which had fateful consequences then, and later when adopted by Nazi Germany in the 20th century.(7) Yet, it would be unfair to ignore the contributions of our Adventist leaders by noting how the prejudiced racial climate of the time may influenced them. One thing Darwin also suggested was that humankind has African roots. Genetic markers in many independent data sets strong suggest that all of us in the human family are part of the African diaspora. This evidence is surely a strong refutation of racism as has been pointed out by biologist Luc Cavalli-Sforza (see The History and Geography of Human Genes [Princeton University Press, 1994] and in many more additionally definitive studies since).

For a church like ours which has struggled within to come to terms with racial and gender equality, and which was sadly silent during the Civil Rights movement, some humility is in order. Within a church paper, to compare Darwin, who on race was at least among the more advanced and progressive of his age, to David Duke, the neo-Nazi, white supremacist, Holocaust-denier, one among the most backward and regressive of our time, is a real distortion and misrepresentation indeed. Honest openness and humility on many subjects Biblical, scientific, and historical is important for all of us.

Why would God use a sometimes agnostic/theist?
Now why would God use a reticent, sometimes agnostic-theist, who struggled with a God who created parasitic wasps and allowed his 12-year old daughter to die, to discover evolution of species via natural selection? Why not? God used a sometimes cantankerous, spiteful man, Sir Isaac Newton, who practiced Alchemy, to discover the law of gravity and co-discover the calculus. Evidently God had no problem using Albert Einstein, a Spinozista who did not believe in a personal deity at all, to discover special and general relativity, and the photoelectric effect. Similar observations could be made about many biblical characters and other great people of history. Of course, there is no conceivable reason why God should not use them. Such objections do not bear any weight.


Rhetorical question: “a closed-minded, right-wing dogmatic intellectual bigot…?”
A standard for a reasoned critique of historical figures and their views is accuracy and fairness in representation of the person and the historical context. Regretfully, Cliff’s criticisms fail on both. Only if these failures were deliberate and malicious would "yes" be the answer to his prominently-displayed, rhetorical question, "Am I being a closed-minded, right-wing dogmatic intellectual bigot not to see something radically wrong here?" Simply not being aware isn't bigotry, because there is the straightforward solution of becoming aware. Thankfully and in fairness to thoughtful fellow Christians across the centuries, Cliff grants that although personally disagreeing with it, a non-literal reading of Genesis "is not absurd." –Lee F. Greer.
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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Footnotes: (1) See the first full paragraph in the text of Abraham Lincoln’s fourth debate with Steven Douglass on September 18, 1858: http://www.nps.gov/archive/liho/debate4.htm.

(2) “It is often attempted to palliate slavery by comparing the state of slaves with our poorer countrymen: if the misery of our poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin; but how this bears on slavery, I cannot see; as well might the use of the thumb-screw be defended in one land, by showing that men in another land suffered from some dreadful disease. Those who look tenderly at the slave owner, and with a cold heart at the slave, never seem to put themselves into the position of the latter; what a cheerless prospect, with not even a hope of change! picture to yourself the chance, ever hanging over you, of your wife and your little children – those objects which nature urges even the slave to call his own – being torn from you and sold like beasts to the first bidder! And these deeds are done and palliated by men, who profess to love their neighbours as themselves, who believe in God, and pray that his Will be done on earth! It makes one's blood boil, yet heart tremble, to think that we Englishmen and our American descendants, with their boastful cry of liberty, have been and are so guilty” Charles Darwin, The Voyage of the Beagle, 1839. There are many references attesting to Darwin’s abolitionist views and progressive bent.


(3) Buckner H. Payne, 1799-1883. [pseudonym ‘Ariel’]. 1867. The Negro, What Is His Ethnological Status?: Is He the Progeny of Ham? Is He a Descendant of Adam and Eve? Has He a Soul? Or Is He a Beast In God's Nomenclature? What Is His Status As Fixed By God In Creation? What Is His Relation To The White Race? (2nd edition, first edition in 1842). Cincinnati, OH: 48 pp. For references to amalgamation as the terrible sin bringing the flood and occurring after the flood (or ‘miscegenation,’ i.e., interracial mixing of “whites” as “humans” with Negroes whom Payne considered “beasts”), see pp. 25, 27, 31, 34, 38, 40, 41, 45, 48.


(4) The statements from Ellen White, 1864. Spiritual Gifts, Vol. 3, pp. 64, 75: “But if there was one sin above another which called for the destruction of the race by the flood, it was the base crime of amalgamation of man and beast which defaced the image of God, and caused confusion everywhere” (p. 64). “Every species of animal which God had created were preserved in the ark. The confused species which God did not create, which were the result of amalgamation, were destroyed by the flood. Since the flood there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men” p.75).


(5) James White reviewed and endorsed Smith’s book in the Review and Herald (August 15, 1868). The Whites apparently also promoted the book on the campmeeting circuit according to Gordon Shigley in “Amalgamation of Man and Beast: What Did Ellen White Mean?” Spectrum 12(4): 18 footnote.


(6) Uriah Smith, 1868. The Visions of Mrs. E. G. White, A Manifestation of Spiritual gifts According to the Scripture, p. 103. (Battle Creek, Michigan). The entire quote from pp. 103-4 “‘Since the flood there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men.’ This view was given for the purpose of illustrating the deep corruption and crime into which the race fell, even within a few years after the flood that signal manifestation of God's wrath against human wickedness. There was amalgamation; and the effect is still visible in certain races of men.’ Mark, those excepting the animals upon whom the effects of this work are visible, are called by the vision, ‘men.’ Now we have ever supposed that anybody that was called a man, was considered a human being. The vision speaks of all these classes as races of men; yet in the face of this plain declaration, they foolishly assert that the visions teach that some men are not human beings! But does any one deny the general statement contained in the extract given above? They do not. If they did, they could easily be silenced by a reference to such cases as the wild Bushmen of Africa, some tribes of the Hottentots, and perhaps the Digger Indians of our own country, &c. Moreover, naturalists affirm that the line of demarkation between the human and animal races is lost in confusion. It is impossible, as they affirm, to tell just where the human ends and the animal begins. Can we suppose that this was so ordained of God in the beginning? Rather has not sin marred the boundaries of these two kingdoms?”


(7) Edwin Black, 2003. War Against the Weak: Eugenics and America's Campaign to Create a Master Race. (New York, NY ), pp. 88, 238 on Kellogg, and pp. 15-17 and elsewhere on Galton.
 
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djconklin

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Originally Posted by djconklin
Actually, people who have studied these things says that it is an oral tradition that was later written down. And others have noticed the repetition of "these are the generations" as indicators that they to were handed down orally.


But it is merely conjecture and not all that likely.

Who said it was "merely conjecture"?

"There are 11 verses in Genesis which read, ‘These are (or ‘This is the book of’) the generations of …’ The Hebrew word toledoth translated ‘generations’ can also mean ‘origins’, ‘history’, or even ‘family history’, and each verse comes either before or after a description of historical events that involved the person named.9 The most likely explanation is that Adam, Noah, Shem, etc. each wrote an account of the events that occurred either right before or during his lifetime, and Moses, under the infallible inspiration of the Holy Spirit, selected, compiled, and edited these to produce Genesis in its present cohesive form.10"

from http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v20/i4/moses.asp

Read Gen. 1 -- it reads as a oral transmission.
 
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djconklin

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Rather than only one literalistic Genesis creation account, numerous Bible students and scholars see two detailed and differing creation accounts in Genesis 1-2:3 and 2:4-25 (continuing in chapter 3).

See K. A. Kitchen's Ancient Near East and the Old Testament--there's one account followed by an expansion of a portion of the whole from another point of view--rather common practice in that part of the world at that time.

In addition, there are seven other creation accounts elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible.

Where?

Furthermore, there is nothing in Genesis 1 or any of other Hebrew creation accounts that even addresses let alone forbids the following phenomena.

Correct, and not relevant as per my very first post.
 
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(5) James White reviewed and endorsed Smith’s book in the Review and Herald (August 15, 1868). The Whites apparently also promoted the book on the campmeeting circuit according to Gordon Shigley in “Amalgamation of Man and Beast: What Did Ellen White Mean?” Spectrum 12(4): 18 footnote.

It pains me when I try to research on provided references which point to non-existing articles... Oh, well... few are those who actually validate references before reusing them from other websites.

There's no such publication for "Review and Herald (August 15, 1868)", and it's annoying to see that this error is spread over quite a few websites already. I had to spend a number of hours to find the correct publication. You might want to correct your reference so that it reads "Review and Herald (August 25, 1868)"... notice the 'August 25'. You can see the actual archive of that publication here: docs.adventistarchives.org/doc_info.asp?DocID=90317
 
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