Creating a New Nation! The New C.S.A. (2)

[ShieldOFaith]

James says one thing; God says another:

[bible]Isaiah 45:7[/bible]

Ah, I figured you'd try to go there. Always trying to be clever...

Sorry, that is why you are not a Theologian. You see, you must look at the context of what is being said. You also have to take into account the rest of Scripture. All the WHOLE of Scripture tells you that GOD is holy and apart from evil and sin.

So, seeing that the word used here in Isaiah 45:7 can be translated calamity {which most translations do} you have to think this through. If GOD is perfect {and HE is} and never can make a mistake then the word "ra" here does not mean evil as in sinful wickedness. It is correctly translated 'calamity' or 'trouble' or 'ill' or 'adversity'. But is not a good translation when you put it at 'evil' in the sense of sin / wickedness. It doesn't fit with the rest of Scripture and HIS nature.

So let's see it again in CONTEXT:

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]5 I am the Lord, and there is no other; There is no God besides Me. I will gird you, though you have not known Me, 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting That there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other; 7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.' 8 "Rain down, you heavens, from above, And let the skies pour down righteousness; Let the earth open, let them bring forth salvation, And let righteousness spring up together. I, the Lord, have created it. --Isaiah 45 NKJV.

Nathan Poe, here are the men who translated this correctly. You can see that there is hundreds of years worth of serious study between all these men. Lots of Doctorates here:

[/FONT]Executive Review Committee

Dr. Arthur L. Farstad. Executive Editor.
Old Testament

• Dr. James D. Price. Chairman. Professor, Department of Old Testament, Temple Baptist Theological Seminary, Chattanooga, Tennessee.
• Dr. Arthur L. Farstad. New Testament Editor, Dallas, Texas.
• Dr. D. David Garland. Professor of Old Testament, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Fort Worth, Texas.
• Dr. Paul K. Gilchrist. Professor of Biblical Studies, Covenant College, Lookout Mountain, Tennessee.
• Dr. R. K. Harrison. Professor of Old Testament, Wycliffe College, Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
• Dr. G. Herbert Livingston. Professor of Old Testament, Chairman of the Division of Biblical Studies, Asbury Theological Seminary, Wilmore, Kentucky.
• Rev. William H. McDowell. Professor of Philosophy and Religion, Florida Southern College, Orlando, Florida.

New Testament

• Dr. Arthur L. Farstad. Chairman. New Testament Editor. Dallas, Texas.
• Dr. Robert L. Hughes. President, Pensacola Baptist Seminary, Pensacola, Florida.
• Dr. Alfred Martin. Professor of Bible, Dallas Bible College, Dallas, Texas.
• Rev. William H. McDowell. Professor of Philosophy and Religion, Florida Southern College, Orlando, Florida.
• Dr. Robert L. Reymond. Professor of Systematic Theology and Apologetics, Covenant Theological Seminary, St. Louis, Missouri.
• Dr. Harry A. Sturz. Professor Emeritus of Greek, Biola College, La Mirada, California.
• Dr. William Curtis Vaughan. Professor of New Testament, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Fort Worth, Texas.

The Revisers

Old Testament

• Dr. Ronald B. Allen. Professor, Old Testament Language and Exegesis, Western Conservative Baptist Seminary, Portland, Oregon.
• Dr. Barry J. Beitzel. Associate Professor of Old Testament and Semitic Languages, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, Deerfield, Illinois
• Dr. Walter R. Bodine. Associate Professor of Semitic Languages and Old Testament, Dallas Theological Seminary, Dallas, Texas
• Dr. Newton L. Bush. Editor, Minister, Bethel Christian Union Chapel, Elida, Ohio.
• Rev. E. Clark Copeland. Professor of Old Testament, Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
• Dr. Leonard J. Coppes. Minister, Calvary Orthodox Presbyterian Church, Harrisville, Pennsylvania.
• Dr. Arthur L. Farstad. New Testament Editor, Dallas, Texas.
• Dr. Harvey E. Finley. Professor of Old Testament, Nazarene Theological Seminary, Kansas City, Missouri.
• Dr. D. David Garland. Professor of Old Testament and Hebrew, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Fort Worth, Texas.
• Dr. Paul R. Gilchrist. Professor of Biblical Studies, Covenant College, Lookout Mountain, Tennessee.
• Dr. Louis Goldberg. Professor of Theology and Jewish Studies, Moody Bible Institute, Chicago, Illinois.
• Rev. Geoffrey Watts Grogan. Principal, Bible Training Institute, Glasgow, Scotland.
• Dr. Victor Paul Kamilton. Associate Professor of Religion, Asbury College, Wilmore, Kentucky.
• Dr. Allan M. Harman. Professor of Old Testament, Reformed Theological College, Victoria, Australia.
• Dr. Edward E. Hindson. Professor of Religion, Liberty Baptist College, Lynchburg, Virginia.
• Dr. Horace D. Hummel. Associate Professor of Old Testament, Concordia Seminary, St. Louis, Missouri.
• Dr. David K. Huttar. Professor of Old Testament and Greek, Nyack College, Nyack, New York.
• Dr. Meredith C. Kline. Professor of Old Testament, Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, South Hamilton, Massachusetts.
• Dr. Donald A. Leggett. Professor of Old Testament, Ontario Theological Seminary, Willowdale, Ontario, Canada.
• Dr. Elmer A. Martens. President, Professor of Old Testament, Mennonite Brethren Biblical Seminary, Fresno, California.
• Rev. William H. McDowell. Professor of Philosophy and Religion, Florida Southern College, Orlando, Florida.
• Dr. Eugene H. Merrill. Associate Professor of Semantics and Old Testament Studies, Dallas Theological Seminary, Dallas, Texas.
• Dr. Gerald I. Miller. Chairman, Division of Foreign Language, Asbury College, Wilmore, Kentucky.
• Dr. Richard 0. Rigsby. Associate Professor of Semitic Languages and Old Testament, Talbot Theological Seminary, La Mirada, California.
• Dr. Allen P. Ross. Professor of Old Testament, Dallas Theological Seminary, Dallas, Texas.
• Dr. Glenn E. Schaefer. Chairman, Department of Bible, Theology and Mission, Simpson College, San Francisco, California.
• Dr. Gary V. Smith. Dean, Winnipeg Theological Seminary, Otterburne, Manitoba, Canada.
• Rev. Arthur Steltzer. Pastor, Emmanuel Orthodox Presbyterian Church, Wilmington, Delaware.
• Dr. William A. VanGemeren, Professor of Old Testament, Reformed Theological Seminary, Jackson, Mississippi.
• Dr. William White, Jr. Writer, Editor, Warrington, Pennsylvania.

New Testament

• Dr. Boyce Blackwelder. Anderson College, Anderson, Indiana.
• Dr. E. M. Blaiklock. Professor Emeritus of Classics, University of Auckland, Titirangi, Auckland, New Zealand.
• Dr. James L. Boyer. Professor Emeritus of New Testament and Greek, Grace Theological Seminary Winona Lake, Indiana.
• Dr. John A. Burns. Academic Dean, Luther Rice Seminary, Jacksonville, Florida.
• William J. Cameron. Principal Emeritus, Free Church of Scotland College, Edinburgh, Scotland.
• Dr. A. Glenn Campbell. Professor Emeritus of New Testament, Greek, and Theology, Montana Institute of the Bible, Ottawa, Kansas.
• Dr. Gary C. Cohen. Lecturer, Miami Christian College, Miami, Florida.
• Dr. Huber L. Drumwright. Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Fort Worth, Texas.
• Dr. William K. Eichhorst. President of Academic Affairs, Winnipeg Bible College and Theological Seminary, Otterburne, Manitoba, Canada.
• Dr. Virtus E. Gideon. Professor of New Testament and Greek, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Fort Worth, Texas.
• Dr. Robert L. Hendren. Minister, Donelson Church of Christ, Nashville, Tennessee.
• Dr. Robert G. Hoerber. Professor of Exegetical Theology, Concordia Seminary, St. Louis, Missouri.
• Dr. Ronald Jones. Associate Professor, Victory Tabernacle Baptist Church, Norfolk, Virginia.
• Dr. Charles R. Smith. Professor of Christian Theology and Greek, Grace Theological Seminary, Winona Lake, Indiana.
• Dr. John A. Sproule. Associate Professor of New Testament and Greek, Grace Theological Seminary, Winona Lake, Indiana.
• Dr. Harry A. Sturz. Professor Emeritus of Greek, Biola College, La Mirada, California.
• Dr. Joseph S. Wang. Professor of New Testament, Asbury Theological Seminary, Wilmore, Kentucky.
• Dr. Phillip R. Williams. Registrar, Professor of New Testament, Northwest Baptist Seminary, Tacoma, Washington.
• Dr. A. Skevington Wood. Principal, Cliff College, Calver, Sheffield, England.
• Dr. Arthur L. Farstad. New Testament Editor, Dallas, Texas.
• Dr. Lewis A. Foster. Professor of New Testament, Cincinnati Seminary, Cincinnati, Ohio.

Revision Committee (1984)

• Dr. Arthur L. Farstad. Executive Editor.
• Dr. James D. Price. Chairman, Old Testament Translation Committee
• Dr. William H. McDowell. English Editor.
• *Dr. James Borland. Professor of Theology and Bible, Liberty Baptist Seminary.
• Dr. D. David Garland. Professor of Old Testament, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.
• Dr. Paul R. Gilchrist. Professor of Biblical Studies, Covenant College.
• Dr R. K. Harrison. Emeritus Professor of Old Testament, Wycliffe College, University of Toronto.
• *Prof. Zane C. Hodges. Professor of New Testament Literature and Exegesis, Dallas Theological Seminary.
• Dr G. Herbert Livingston. Chairman, Division of Biblical Studies, Asbury Theological Seminary.
• Dr Alfred Martin. Professor of Bible, Dallas Bible College.
• Dr. Harry Sturz. Professor of Greek, Biola College.
• Dr. Curtis Vaughan. Professor of New Testament, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.

Once again here is a very clear translation of the text:

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]5 I am the Lord, and there is no other; There is no God besides Me. I will gird you, though you have not known Me, 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting That there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other; 7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.' --Isaiah 45

SOLA SCRIPTURA.
[/FONT]

 

[FaithLikeARock]

SOF, seeing it in context doesn't change the meaning at all. So I shall do it for you.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I see a pattern in here. For both darkness and evil it says God "creates". The exact definition of 'create' is 'to cause to come into existence'. No matter what it is, it goes back to God, but that doesn't mean God intended for it to be made or wished for it to be made. But because God created us with free will, it came into existence. Because God formed the light, darkness had to exist too. For every value there is an opposite. So whenever God makes something, something is created. He acknowledges this, and recognizes that on Earth, light and dark are balanced and likewise, our flaws and our talents balance too. God uses sin, flaws and imperfections as tools to help us share His word countless times in the Bible. So when God recognized that it could come with consequence, He also recognized that it could bring great opportunity.

 

[ShieldOFaith]

SOF, seeing it in context doesn't change the meaning at all. So I shall do it for you.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I see a pattern in here. For both darkness and evil it says God "creates". The exact definition of 'create' is 'to cause to come into existence'. No matter what it is, it goes back to God, but that doesn't mean God intended for it to be made or wished for it to be made. But because God created us with free will, it came into existence. Because God formed the light, darkness had to exist too. For every value there is an opposite. So whenever God makes something, something is created. He acknowledges this, and recognizes that on Earth, light and dark are balanced and likewise, our flaws and our talents balance too. God uses sin, flaws and imperfections as tools to help us share His word countless times in the Bible. So when God recognized that it could come with consequence, He also recognized that it could bring great opportunity.

Hummm... Read this list again:

Executive Review Committee

Dr. Arthur L. Farstad. Executive Editor.
Old Testament

• Dr. James D. Price. Chairman. Professor, Department of Old Testament, Temple Baptist Theological Seminary, Chattanooga, Tennessee.
• Dr. Arthur L. Farstad. New Testament Editor, Dallas, Texas.
• Dr. D. David Garland. Professor of Old Testament, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Fort Worth, Texas.
• Dr. Paul K. Gilchrist. Professor of Biblical Studies, Covenant College, Lookout Mountain, Tennessee.
• Dr. R. K. Harrison. Professor of Old Testament, Wycliffe College, Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
• Dr. G. Herbert Livingston. Professor of Old Testament, Chairman of the Division of Biblical Studies, Asbury Theological Seminary, Wilmore, Kentucky.
• Rev. William H. McDowell. Professor of Philosophy and Religion, Florida Southern College, Orlando, Florida.

New Testament

• Dr. Arthur L. Farstad. Chairman. New Testament Editor. Dallas, Texas.
• Dr. Robert L. Hughes. President, Pensacola Baptist Seminary, Pensacola, Florida.
• Dr. Alfred Martin. Professor of Bible, Dallas Bible College, Dallas, Texas.
• Rev. William H. McDowell. Professor of Philosophy and Religion, Florida Southern College, Orlando, Florida.
• Dr. Robert L. Reymond. Professor of Systematic Theology and Apologetics, Covenant Theological Seminary, St. Louis, Missouri.
• Dr. Harry A. Sturz. Professor Emeritus of Greek, Biola College, La Mirada, California.
• Dr. William Curtis Vaughan. Professor of New Testament, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Fort Worth, Texas.

The Revisers

Old Testament

• Dr. Ronald B. Allen. Professor, Old Testament Language and Exegesis, Western Conservative Baptist Seminary, Portland, Oregon.
• Dr. Barry J. Beitzel. Associate Professor of Old Testament and Semitic Languages, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, Deerfield, Illinois
• Dr. Walter R. Bodine. Associate Professor of Semitic Languages and Old Testament, Dallas Theological Seminary, Dallas, Texas
• Dr. Newton L. Bush. Editor, Minister, Bethel Christian Union Chapel, Elida, Ohio.
• Rev. E. Clark Copeland. Professor of Old Testament, Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
• Dr. Leonard J. Coppes. Minister, Calvary Orthodox Presbyterian Church, Harrisville, Pennsylvania.
• Dr. Arthur L. Farstad. New Testament Editor, Dallas, Texas.
• Dr. Harvey E. Finley. Professor of Old Testament, Nazarene Theological Seminary, Kansas City, Missouri.
• Dr. D. David Garland. Professor of Old Testament and Hebrew, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Fort Worth, Texas.
• Dr. Paul R. Gilchrist. Professor of Biblical Studies, Covenant College, Lookout Mountain, Tennessee.
• Dr. Louis Goldberg. Professor of Theology and Jewish Studies, Moody Bible Institute, Chicago, Illinois.
• Rev. Geoffrey Watts Grogan. Principal, Bible Training Institute, Glasgow, Scotland.
• Dr. Victor Paul Kamilton. Associate Professor of Religion, Asbury College, Wilmore, Kentucky.
• Dr. Allan M. Harman. Professor of Old Testament, Reformed Theological College, Victoria, Australia.
• Dr. Edward E. Hindson. Professor of Religion, Liberty Baptist College, Lynchburg, Virginia.
• Dr. Horace D. Hummel. Associate Professor of Old Testament, Concordia Seminary, St. Louis, Missouri.
• Dr. David K. Huttar. Professor of Old Testament and Greek, Nyack College, Nyack, New York.
• Dr. Meredith C. Kline. Professor of Old Testament, Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, South Hamilton, Massachusetts.
• Dr. Donald A. Leggett. Professor of Old Testament, Ontario Theological Seminary, Willowdale, Ontario, Canada.
• Dr. Elmer A. Martens. President, Professor of Old Testament, Mennonite Brethren Biblical Seminary, Fresno, California.
• Rev. William H. McDowell. Professor of Philosophy and Religion, Florida Southern College, Orlando, Florida.
• Dr. Eugene H. Merrill. Associate Professor of Semantics and Old Testament Studies, Dallas Theological Seminary, Dallas, Texas.
• Dr. Gerald I. Miller. Chairman, Division of Foreign Language, Asbury College, Wilmore, Kentucky.
• Dr. Richard 0. Rigsby. Associate Professor of Semitic Languages and Old Testament, Talbot Theological Seminary, La Mirada, California.
• Dr. Allen P. Ross. Professor of Old Testament, Dallas Theological Seminary, Dallas, Texas.
• Dr. Glenn E. Schaefer. Chairman, Department of Bible, Theology and Mission, Simpson College, San Francisco, California.
• Dr. Gary V. Smith. Dean, Winnipeg Theological Seminary, Otterburne, Manitoba, Canada.
• Rev. Arthur Steltzer. Pastor, Emmanuel Orthodox Presbyterian Church, Wilmington, Delaware.
• Dr. William A. VanGemeren, Professor of Old Testament, Reformed Theological Seminary, Jackson, Mississippi.
• Dr. William White, Jr. Writer, Editor, Warrington, Pennsylvania.

New Testament

• Dr. Boyce Blackwelder. Anderson College, Anderson, Indiana.
• Dr. E. M. Blaiklock. Professor Emeritus of Classics, University of Auckland, Titirangi, Auckland, New Zealand.
• Dr. James L. Boyer. Professor Emeritus of New Testament and Greek, Grace Theological Seminary Winona Lake, Indiana.
• Dr. John A. Burns. Academic Dean, Luther Rice Seminary, Jacksonville, Florida.
• William J. Cameron. Principal Emeritus, Free Church of Scotland College, Edinburgh, Scotland.
• Dr. A. Glenn Campbell. Professor Emeritus of New Testament, Greek, and Theology, Montana Institute of the Bible, Ottawa, Kansas.
• Dr. Gary C. Cohen. Lecturer, Miami Christian College, Miami, Florida.
• Dr. Huber L. Drumwright. Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Fort Worth, Texas.
• Dr. William K. Eichhorst. President of Academic Affairs, Winnipeg Bible College and Theological Seminary, Otterburne, Manitoba, Canada.
• Dr. Virtus E. Gideon. Professor of New Testament and Greek, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Fort Worth, Texas.
• Dr. Robert L. Hendren. Minister, Donelson Church of Christ, Nashville, Tennessee.
• Dr. Robert G. Hoerber. Professor of Exegetical Theology, Concordia Seminary, St. Louis, Missouri.
• Dr. Ronald Jones. Associate Professor, Victory Tabernacle Baptist Church, Norfolk, Virginia.
• Dr. Charles R. Smith. Professor of Christian Theology and Greek, Grace Theological Seminary, Winona Lake, Indiana.
• Dr. John A. Sproule. Associate Professor of New Testament and Greek, Grace Theological Seminary, Winona Lake, Indiana.
• Dr. Harry A. Sturz. Professor Emeritus of Greek, Biola College, La Mirada, California.
• Dr. Joseph S. Wang. Professor of New Testament, Asbury Theological Seminary, Wilmore, Kentucky.
• Dr. Phillip R. Williams. Registrar, Professor of New Testament, Northwest Baptist Seminary, Tacoma, Washington.
• Dr. A. Skevington Wood. Principal, Cliff College, Calver, Sheffield, England.
• Dr. Arthur L. Farstad. New Testament Editor, Dallas, Texas.
• Dr. Lewis A. Foster. Professor of New Testament, Cincinnati Seminary, Cincinnati, Ohio.

Revision Committee (1984)

• Dr. Arthur L. Farstad. Executive Editor.
• Dr. James D. Price. Chairman, Old Testament Translation Committee
• Dr. William H. McDowell. English Editor.
• *Dr. James Borland. Professor of Theology and Bible, Liberty Baptist Seminary.
• Dr. D. David Garland. Professor of Old Testament, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.
• Dr. Paul R. Gilchrist. Professor of Biblical Studies, Covenant College.
• Dr R. K. Harrison. Emeritus Professor of Old Testament, Wycliffe College, University of Toronto.
• *Prof. Zane C. Hodges. Professor of New Testament Literature and Exegesis, Dallas Theological Seminary.
• Dr G. Herbert Livingston. Chairman, Division of Biblical Studies, Asbury Theological Seminary.
• Dr Alfred Martin. Professor of Bible, Dallas Bible College.
• Dr. Harry Sturz. Professor of Greek, Biola College.
• Dr. Curtis Vaughan. Professor of New Testament, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.

These are the men who worked on the New King James Version of the Bible.

So I can rely on them or you for a clear translation of that text.

Sorry: I'll take them.

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]5 I am the Lord, and there is no other; There is no God besides Me. I will gird you, though you have not known Me, 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting That there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other; 7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.'

Yep; works real well there.

SOLA SCRIPTURA.
[/FONT]

 

[TheNewWorldMan]

And we're still right here, SoF...your cut-and-paste had nothing whatsoever to do with my questions. So I'll paste them in here yet again...

1. Would SoF enforce all of OT law in its entirety? This should be answerable by a simple yes or no, as either CSA law = OT law, or CSA law ≠ OT law. It's either-or.

2. If the answer to question #1 is no, then what would be the differences between CSA law and OT law, and on what basis and authority does SoF disobey orders and deviate from OT law?

These are the men who worked on the New King James Version of the Bible.

So I can rely on them or you for a clear translation of that text.

Yes, and no doubt they're all totally on board for your fascist CSA. Sure they are...and I've got a bridge to sell you if you believe that.

 

[mpok1519]

lol

you think bc you copy and pasted a buncha religious scholars means you're always right all the time?

Hmmm.....

no, I think I'll go with my list of scholars.

Logic
Reason
Mr. Dignity
Etc

 

[mpok1519]

and SoF >> whatever you do, DO NOT answer peoples' questions directly with an unambiguous answer, EVER! people don't like it when you actually pay attention to what they're saying.

try having a two-sided conversation.

You have two eyes, two ears, and one mouth. you need to watch and listen twice as much as you talk bro.


Also, God said "I created evil and good" which means God did create sin. God doesn't TEMPT us with sin, because we have all that ablity ourself, without God.

 

[ShieldOFaith]

and SoF >> whatever you do, DO NOT answer peoples' questions directly with an unambiguous answer, EVER! people don't like it when you actually pay attention to what they're saying.

try having a two-sided conversation.

You have two eyes, two ears, and one mouth. you need to watch and listen twice as much as you talk bro.


Also, God said "I created evil and good" which means God did create sin. God doesn't TEMPT us with sin, because we have all that ablity ourself, without God.

Wrong.

HE did not create evil. You really need to learn about the Word of God.

 

[FaithLikeARock]

Except SOF, that list of scholars doesn't prove, disprove or really add anything to the argument and if anything you're AGREEING that God did in fact create sin by listing and supporting the people who translated it to seem as such. Just so you know. Confusing people where they can't argue with you is hardly a useful tactic.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Ah, I figured you'd try to go there. Always trying to be clever...

Shield, we were having a civil conversation -- was this really necessary?

Sorry, that is why you are not a Theologian.

Never claimed to be one.

You see, you must look at the context of what is being said. You also have to take into account the rest of Scripture. All the WHOLE of Scripture tells you that GOD is holy and apart from evil and sin.

But the whole is made up of its parts -- when I have a part where God explicitly says that He has created evil, what should I not take Him at His word?

So, seeing that the word used here in Isaiah 45:7 can be translated calamity {which most translations do} you have to think this through.

The translation I use is the KJV -- I find that most of the Fundamentalists I deal with tend to be of the "KJV-only" variety. I'll leave it to you tell tell them their translation is wrong -- Challenging them on that is hitting a hornet's nest with a stick.

If GOD is perfect {and HE is} and never can make a mistake then the word "ra" here does not mean evil as in sinful wickedness. It is correctly translated 'calamity' or 'trouble' or 'ill' or 'adversity'. But is not a good translation when you put it at 'evil' in the sense of sin / wickedness. It doesn't fit with the rest of Scripture and HIS nature.

I can only deal with what the text says, not with what I would like it to mean. If God says He creates evil, I need to take His word for it, and not assume that His words have been bungled by a poor translation.

(Sheesh, I'm starting to sound like a fundamentalist here, aren't I?)

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]

Nathan Poe, here are the men who translated this correctly. You can see that there is hundreds of years worth of serious study between all these men. Lots of Doctorates here:

[/FONT]

Just out of curiousity, how many doctorates equal inspiration from the Holy Spirit? Because you must know that none of those sheepkins are going to mean a hill of beans when you butt your head against the KJV-only crowd.

I would like to say that I'm glad you've finally responded to something I've said, although I would like to get off this tangent and back to our original discussion.

 

[Cabal]

(Sheesh, I'm starting to sound like a fundamentalist here, aren't I?)

SI AUGUR AUGUREM

 

[ShieldOFaith]

Except SOF, that list of scholars doesn't prove, disprove or really add anything to the argument and if anything you're AGREEING that God did in fact create sin by listing and supporting the people who translated it to seem as such. Just so you know. Confusing people where they can't argue with you is hardly a useful tactic.

I am not trying to confuse anyone. I am trying to tell you that the KJV is very old and sometimes has trouble in this century. That is why they translated the NKJV "NEW King James Version" of the Bible.

How does the NEW KJV translate the passage????????????????

I am right. All those scholars are right. This is how the passage should read correctly:

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]5 I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, 6 so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. 7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things. --Isaiah 45

If you want to try and debate this one word in this one passage till you die; go ahead. You are being intellectually dishonest. I can not help you.

That giant list of biblical scholars all agree with me. You can agree with who ever you wish. You can believe that GOD created sickening vile sin. Go ahead. You'd be wrong and you could not back up your position because you'd have to use this one word in this one passage and the word does not say that in the correct context.

The ONLY thing I will agree to is that GOD is responsible for making free moral agents, who in and of themselves created evil. It is His responsibility for creating these beings. That is it; that is as far as it goes.

Once again read it in correct context:

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]5 I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, 6 so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. 7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.

SOLA DEO GLORIA.
[/FONT]

 

[FaithLikeARock]

I am not trying to confuse anyone. I am trying to tell you that the KJV is very old and sometimes has trouble in this century. That is why they translated the NKJV "NEW King James Version" of the Bible.

How does the NEW KJV translate the passage????????????????

I am right. All those scholars are right. This is how the passage should read correctly:

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]5 I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, 6 so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. 7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things. --Isaiah 45

If you want to try and debate this one word in this one passage till you die; go ahead. You are being intellectually dishonest. I can not help you.

That giant list of biblical scholars all agree with me. You can agree with who ever you wish. You can believe that GOD created sickening vile sin. Go ahead. You'd be wrong and you could not back up your position because you'd have to use this one word in this one passage and the word does not say that in the correct context.

The ONLY thing I will agree to is that GOD is responsible for making free moral agents, who in and of themselves created evil. It is His responsibility for creating these beings. That is it; that is as far as it goes.

Once again read it in correct context:

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]5 I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, 6 so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. 7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.

SOLA DEO GLORIA.
[/FONT]

SOF, hear me.

IT STILL MEANS EXACTLY WHAT THEY SAID IT MEANS. Why are you rejecting my help? I just approached that verse in a theological way that was meant to help you, not hurt you! Meanwhile you just keep saying the same thing over and over even though you haven't really proven anything. In context the verse still says that God creates turmoil.

 

[ShieldOFaith]

SOF, hear me.

IT STILL MEANS EXACTLY WHAT THEY SAID IT MEANS. Why are you rejecting my help? I just approached that verse in a theological way that was meant to help you, not hurt you! Meanwhile you just keep saying the same thing over and over even though you haven't really proven anything. In context the verse still says that God creates turmoil.

Tumoil, calamity; ok. But not evil in the sense of sin and wickedness.

Calamity: like raining fire upon the Sodomites, yes!!!

Not creating sinful '[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]' orgies. <=== No!!!

There is a humonsterous difference!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GOD is holy and righteous. Period. End of remark.

SOLA GRATIA.

 

[IzzyPop]

Tumoil, calamity; ok. But not evil in the sense of sin and wickedness.

Calamity: like raining fire upon the Sodomites, yes!!!

Not creating sinful '[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]' orgies. <=== No!!!

There is a humonsterous difference!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GOD is holy and righteous. Period. End of remark.

SOLA GRATIA.

Looks like someone went to the wrong porn site...

 

[Shadowfax503]

OK so God gave us all free will including Lucifer.
Lucifer chose to sin against God because he had the choice to. So does that mean God did create "Evil'?

God made Adam. God made the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God told Adam not to eat of it. God put Adam near the tree. God gave Adam free will.
Adam chose to eat of the tree and disobey God.
So does this mean God put sin right in front of Adam and then punished him once Adam fell to the temptation? Therefor God created "sin"?

 

[ShieldOFaith]

OK so God gave us all free will including Lucifer.
Lucifer chose to sin against God because he had the choice to. So does that mean God did create "Evil'?

God made Adam. God made the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God told Adam not to eat of it. God put Adam near the tree. God gave Adam free will.
Adam chose to eat of the tree and disobey God.
So does this mean God put sin right in front of Adam and then punished him once Adam fell to the temptation? Therefor God created "sin"?

Read James. God can not tempt anyone, nor can He be tempted.

God tests us. Like He tested Abrams faith; remember?

SOLA GRATIA.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Read James. God can not tempt anyone, nor can He be tempted.

Correct me if I am wrong, Shield: If I follow God, and obey His instructions to the letter, I am promised a blissful eternity in a celestial paradise.

If I do not, I will be put to death by His earthly agents and then consigned to a realm of eternal suffering.

Obedience sounds like a pretty tempting offer, does it not?

 

[ShieldOFaith]

Correct me if I am wrong, Shield: If I follow God, and obey His instructions to the letter, I am promised a blissful eternity in a celestial paradise.

If I do not, I will be put to death by His earthly agents and then consigned to a realm of eternal suffering.

Obedience sounds like a pretty tempting offer, does it not?

Not tempting, just awesome and wonderful.

 

[ShieldOFaith]

I'm starting to get the feeling that women are ignored in this thread.

Would that also be in the new nation of C.S.A?

Would women have equality and freedom as described in the action and quotes of Jesus? Or will women be relageted to second-class citizens?

Will the actions of strong women like the Mary's, Martha, Lydia, Pricilla all be ignored?

Sorry, I've been really busy. No! Women would not be ignored.

They would be loved and blessed.

 

[Gremlins]

Not tempting, just awesome and wonderful.

But... You're a calvinist, so if your beliefs are true then for all you know you're gonna burn in hell for all eternity.