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He is the Holy One of Israel. He is God in human flesh. He holds the keys to death and hades. He has the power to either give you new life or to burn you alive for all eternity.
Take the first option! The second is too hot to handle.
SOLA GRATIA.
He does. HE does. Not you. Leave such judgment to God.
Take your own advice.
I already have!
Wrong.
GOD says to get married. I am to either believe you or GOD. Who do you think I am going to believe? Just in case you didn't get it; GOD. I believe GOD over you.
Jesus was not a bastard. He was born in wedlock. His earthly mom and dad were married when He was born. You fail to understand that. You hence fail in this argument.
GOD is right and you are wrong. Fornication is sickening and evil. Hence you need to get married if you wish to have sexual intercourse.
GOD wins, and you lose.
SOLI DEO GLORIA.
He was conceived and born outside of wedlock. Mary and Joseph were only engaged but if they were married that would be worse because that's basically accusing God of impregnating a married woman which is technically adultery. For someone so bent on pushing the word you sure are nit picking at it.
P.S. And bastard is a very crude and hurtful word and I will ask you kindly not to use it. It isn't any child's fault when their parents make wrong choices.
P.S. And bastard is a very crude and hurtful word and I will ask you kindly not to use it. It isn't any child's fault when their parents make wrong choices.
My apologies, you are right that some people take the word to harshly. I only meant it in the technical sense.
So you basically just admitted she wasn't married.
You know SOF, you should at least retain some consistency. You pretty much just out right lied to my face and called it a fact given by God. In some countries that would be considered a big heresy. Except I believe in forgiveness so I'll get over it. That said, it still doesn't address my complaint about your logic.
The virgin birth was also a demonstration of the spiritual marriage between God and His people. God would not impregnate a woman knowing how it could affect her life and not even give that meaning more than "you're my puppet to further my plan". He thinks so much more of us than that. Revelations tells us that God will marry the Church (capital C, to signify the people in it and not the building). But the Revelations describes the first coming and second coming, as a matter of fact. Meaning before Mary gave birth she was spiritually connected with God in a way similar to marriage.
However because God is, well, God, Joseph still married Mary to fill the space a spouse is meant to fill in those not called to celibacy.
SOF.
I have one real big issue with your new CSA.
You have said that as a Christian Nation, filled with christians, all filled with the holy spirit and following God with all their heart, soul and strength that crime and ungodliness would be at an all time low.
Amen I hope and pray that could happen!!!!!
However, I assume children would be born in this new country and grow up in it. We as sinful humans do not always follow what our parents and elders teach us. So would that mean that when our daughter or granddaughter is tempted and has sex before marriage that we would stone her? Does that mean that when our sons and grandsons show dishonor to us as elders we kill them??
I remember Jesus stopping the stoning of a woman "caught" in the act of adultery and telling those about to kill her (according to the law) to let he who has no sin cast the first stone.
To me the one unifying truth through the entire Bible is our rebellion against God and his continued willingness to forgive us and bring us to him. What I am understanding of your CSA is a nation of "Pharisees" who condemn anyone and everyone who disagrees with them or makes a mistake.
That is how I take what you are saying. If I am wrong please explain.
The Importance of the Doctrine of the Virgin Birth
Cathy A. BihlerQuote: What is at stake in Christianity with the doctrine of the Virgin Birth?If I were to try to put a "nutshell" definition on Christianity, my first thoughts turn to God - Who He Is. Then, I think about who we are, and the relationship between God and us. The Christian Faith is lived out by people who believe that God is Our Creator[1] and that He is Father/Son/Holy Spirit[2]. The Christian Faith is lived out by people who believe that humanity is totally "messed up" by sin[3] and that only Jesus Christ can and does save us from this human condition[4]. Christians believe that Jesus Christ is both the Son of God and the Son of Man: Fully God and yet Fully Human[5]. Christians believe that when people accept Jesus Christ as their Savior, the Holy Spirit comes to dwell with them[6] and teach them and sanctify them, helping them become the people that God created them to be[7].
God has created humans and enjoyed personal, interactive, and loving relationship with the first of His created humans: Adam and Eve. They chose to disobey God's commandment and brought sin and death upon themselves[8] and to all who were born after them and even to all of the created world[9]. They were removed from the holy Garden of Eden[10]. Now separated by sin from Holy God, how is the relationship restored?
Ever since that day - the fall of humanity from the good and beautiful beginning - God has been busy revealing Himself to us and working for our redemption and total reconciliation. He loves us of His own free will and chooses to give us free will to either:
1. Return our love to Him[11], demonstrating our love by choosing to obey His directions for a holy life[12]. This option includes becoming sons and daughters of God, adopted heirs, and spend eternity in heaven with Him and all the angels and all the other saints[13]. This option includes being forgiven for all that we have done wrong, cleansed and purified from the effects of our sins, becoming holy and righteous[14]. This option includes entering the Kingdom of God now[15] and working toward sanctification[16] and loving others as God has loved us[17]. This option includes a future entering into heaven in fully resurrected bodies[18] designed to last forever with love and light and life and joy and peace[19]; or
2. Chase after what we want: other things, other gods[20]. We can choose options of self-idolatry or self-made idols[21], which we think will bring joy and satisfaction and love, but will actually bring eternal death[22]. Eternal death is experienced in a place that is as far opposite from heaven as is possible - -hell[23]. This place is described by God as a pit of fire, a place where the devil and death are going to be placed on the final Day of Judgment[24]. This option includes being judged by God as sinful and unholy and, therefore, as ones who have chosen the ways of the devil, belong where the devil is judged to go[25].
God has chosen to reveal Who He Is through the lives and actual historical events of people, particularly in a people who came to be known as Israelites, descendents of Abraham and Sarah[26]. The history of the People of God, their successes and failures (which depended upon their personal and faithful relationship with God)[27] are recorded for us in the Bible.
When the time was right[28], God Himself came down from heaven, in the Person of Jesus Christ of Nazareth[29], born of Mary[30], a virgin Israelite, who was betrothed to a man named Joseph.[31]
Jesus Christ, the Messiah[32], The Word of God[33], Who Always Was and Is and Always Will Be[34], willingly left heaven, emptied and humbled Himself and came into the world as a vulnerable baby[35], born to a young Jewish woman, Mary[36], who consented to this most amazing thing. "Let it be unto me," she said, believing the angel's message[37]. Her fiancé, Joseph, too, agreed to this arrangement and consented to continue the engagement and to take her as his wife and raise this Holy Child, the Son of God[38].
One day, the Holy Spirit "overshadowed" Mary and she became pregnant, "with child". She was a virgin, which means that she did not have sex with her fiancé, nor with any man, and yet she became pregnant through and by the power of God. This unique Child, was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. This Child, was named Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.
http://faithfulchristianlaity.org/virgin_birth.htm
SOLA GRATIA.
Granted, there is a connection here -- certainly we have to at least discuss the source of these laws if we're going to get into the reasoning behind them.
However, I think we're both going to have to concede that we are not going to agree on this point: You believe they came from God; I believe they came from men who then attributed them to God.
I understand your belief; but history seems to disagree -- after all, men came up with many of the same rules on their own; look at the non-Judeo/Christian cultures who figured out a code of laws similar to the Hebrews.
The Babylonians, the Sumerians, the Egyptians, etc... they hardly needed Moses to tell them that "Don't kill each other, don't rape each other, and don't steal from each other," were good ideas to put down.
The notion that civilization couldn't have existed without GOD (I assume here you mean the GOD of the Bible) is belied by the very existence of the foreign nations mentioned in the Bible -- and none of them self-destructed. (indeed, most of them were far more of ta threat to the Hebrews than they were to themselves)
For example, the Babylonians were no followers of GOD, but they had a strong enough nation to hand the Hebrews' posteriors to them -- twice, IIRC.
Now, if you wanted to get more specific, and say that the Hebrews wouldv'e killed each other to the last man had it not been for God's intervention, I would agree with you, based on the book of Exodus. Here we see an entire nation of people going from years -- generations even -- of slavery to complete freedom practically overnight.
That's a sure recipe for Anarchy, and if someone (you say it was God, and I won't argue the point here) hadn't stepped in and laid down some ground rules, they most likely would've disintegrated right then and there -- to say nothing abou their long trip through the desert.
(On a side note, you think Moses was ever tempted to write in an 11th Commandment on his own: "Thou shalt stop asking, 'Are we there yet?' For the last time, NO!")
And I'm certainly not asking you to abandon GOD, and I have no interest in trying to "prove" He doesn't exist, nto to you or anyone else. My only position here is that GOD did not write those laws -- and even that is irrelevent, since, for the sake of this discussion, I'll work under the premise that God did write them.
Actually, I fully understand how important the "WHO" is -- but I hope that we can agree that at least one of the purposes of the Law -- Keeping the newly-liberated Hebrews from going at each others' throats -- was a good one even if it hadn't come from God.
I've got no problem with strange; I'm only glad it's still civil.
SCIENTIA EST POTENTIA.
Shadowfax, howdy.SOF I guess you missed my question about the new CSA so I will repost it for you.
Shadowfax, howdy.
I said this once before, but here goes again. Anyone could leave the C.S.A. any time they wanted to. There would be no 'Iron Curtain' there. If you didn't like it, leave it. Simple.
However, the laws would be fixed and if they broke them, they'd pay the price like anyone else. If they committed murder, rape, homosexuality, abortion...ect., they'd be put to death. That simple.
Once again, I also gave a fairly lengthy answer to the "cast the first stone" question.
You could look back in this thread or just know this. The whole thing was a SET UP! They were trying to set Jesus up. REMEMBER that they dragged the woman alone to Him. Where was the man??? Where was he???
The Word tells us that they had caught her in the 'very act' of adultery. Where was the man??? Where was he???
Jesus could not BY THE LAW have her killed. First because they were under Roman law;
second, because it was wrong. They had to bring the man and the woman to Him, in order to have Him pronounce the sentence of death.
Jesus did exactly what He should have done. HOWEVER, if they would have brought the man, and they were not under Roman rule at the time; Jesus would have been the first one to cast the stone!!!
He was still under the Old Covenant and He never would have broken the law! EVER! He could not! HE IS GOD, AND IT IS HIS OWN LAW.
SOLA GRATIA.
not gonna work buddy.Shadowfax, howdy.
I said this once before, but here goes again. Anyone could leave the C.S.A. any time they wanted to. There would be no 'Iron Curtain' there. If you didn't like it, leave it. Simple.
However, the laws would be fixed and if they broke them, they'd pay the price like anyone else. If they committed murder, rape, homosexuality, abortion...ect., they'd be put to death. That simple.
Once again, I also gave a fairly lengthy answer to the "cast the first stone" question.
You could look back in this thread or just know this. The whole thing was a SET UP! They were trying to set Jesus up. REMEMBER that they dragged the woman alone to Him. Where was the man??? Where was he???
The Word tells us that they had caught her in the 'very act' of adultery. Where was the man??? Where was he???
Jesus could not BY THE LAW have her killed. First because they were under Roman law; second, because it was wrong. They had to bring the man and the woman to Him, in order to have Him pronounce the sentence of death.
Jesus did exactly what He should have done. HOWEVER, if they would have brought the man, and they were not under Roman rule at the time; Jesus would have been the first one to cast the stone!!! He was still under the Old Covenant and He never would have broken the law! EVER! He could not! HE IS GOD, AND IT IS HIS OWN LAW.
SOLA GRATIA.
Wrong.
Being betrothed in that culture was the same as being married. You had to have a certificate of divorce to "put her away". I am not lying to your face or any other part of you.
Jesus was perfect and holy. His miraculous conception and birth are awesome and holy. You can not put Jesus in the same category as a common bastard. Thank you.
The Creed of Athanasius
The Athanasian Creed is that latest of the ecumenical creeds, dating back to the early dark ages. Though seldom used in worship, it is one of the clearest definitions of the Trinity and the incarnation ever written.
Whosoever will be saved,Amen.
before all things it is is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith.
Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled,
without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
And the Catholic Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity
in Unity,
neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance.
For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son,
and another of the Holy Ghost.
But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one,
the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal.
Such as the Father is, such is the Son,
and such is the Holy Ghost.
The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate,
and the Holy Ghost uncreate.
The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible,
and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible.
The Father eternal, the Son eternal,
and the Holy Ghost eternal.
And yet they are not three eternals,
but one eternal.
As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated,
but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible.
So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty,
and the Holy Ghost Almighty.
And yet they are not three Almighties,
but one Almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God,
and the Holy Ghost is God.
And yet they are not three Gods,
but one God.
So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord,
and the Holy Ghost Lord.
And yet not three Lords,
but one Lord.
For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge ever y
Person by Himself to be both God and Lord,
so we are forbidden by the Catholic Religion, to say, there be three Gods,
or three Lords.
The Father is made of none,
neither created, nor begotten.
The Son is of the Father alone,
not made, nor created, but begotten.
The Holy Ghost is of the Father [and of the Son],
neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons;
one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts.
And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other; none is greater, or l ess
than another;
but the whole three Persons are co-eternal together and co-equal.
So that in all things, as is aforesaid,
the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
He therefore that will be saved
must thus think of the Trinity.
Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation
that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ .
For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess,
that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man.
God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds;
and Man, of the Substance of His Mother, born in the world;
Perfect God and perfect Man,
of a reasonable soul in human flesh subsisting;
Equal to the Father, as touching His Godhead;
and inferior to the Father, as touching His Manhood.
Who, although He be God and Man,
yet He is not two, but one Christ;
One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh,
but by taking of the Manhood into God;
One altogether; not by confusion of Substance,
but by unity of Person.
For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man,
so God and Man is one Christ.
Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell,
rose again the third day from the dead.
He ascended into heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God
Almighty,
from whence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
At whose coming all men shall rise with their bodies
and shall give account for their own works.
And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting;
and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully,
he cannot be saved.
SOLA SCRIPTURA.
SOLA FIDE.
SOLA GRATIA.
SOLUS CHRISTUS.
SOLI DEO GLORIA.
As you must be well aware of, the Old Testament has literally hundreds of laws, and the penalty for breaking most of them is death.
Jesus could not BY THE LAW have her killed. First because they were under Roman law; second, because it was wrong. They had to bring the man and the woman to Him, in order to have Him pronounce the sentence of death.
Jesus did exactly what He should have done. HOWEVER, if they would have brought the man, and they were not under Roman rule at the time; Jesus would have been the first one to cast the stone!!! He was still under the Old Covenant and He never would have broken the law! EVER! He could not! HE IS GOD, AND IT IS HIS OWN LAW.
SOLA GRATIA.
And this is the root of the questions that SoF has steadfastly refused to answer (and cut-and-paste of Scripture is not an answer), even though it has been put to him at least four or five times. So here we go again:
1. Would SoF enforce all of OT law in its entirety? This should be answerable by a simple yes or no, as either CSA law = OT law, or CSA law ≠ OT law. It's either-or.
2. If the answer to question #1 is no, then what would be the differences between CSA law and OT law, and on what basis and authority does SoF disobey orders and deviate from OT law?
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