Covid - Two Paths

[Occams Barber]

Why not quarantine those most at risk only? 'Herd immunity' plus quarantine on the edges is a viable option, surely?

Now you're shifting the goalposts.

Selective quarantine is obviously better than no quarantine. Its actually what's happening now, where those who are potentially infected, due to an exposure, are asked/required to isolate for 14 days. Quarantine isn't just for those most at risk it's also for those most likely to cause infection. There are also visitation restrictions on aged care facilities and mandatory masks (in Victoria).

If you've been following this thing closely you'd also be aware that herd immunity isn't guaranteed. There may be a partial immunity, short term immunity or no lasting immunity.

Before you ask that we lay down our lives you need to have a much clearer understanding of how society might benefit from such a drastic act. So far all I'm seeing is a fairly confused argument.

OB

 

[Shrewd Manager]

We see how well that works with the current outbreaks in nursing homes.

Don't know what that means. Normal healthy ppl are ok, old sick ppl are at risk. No different to the flu. If you're scared, stay home; if I'm prepared to take the risk, I'll go out. Simple.

As for seeking first the kingdom, I agree; but that includes concern for our fellow human beings.

And that concern is not displayed by destroying the future.

if we believed the current pandemic were a deliberate punishment from God, but certainly I don't see it that way.

Well that's convenient. But nothing happens without God's permission. Where do you think this is all heading? Bio-tyranny, mark of Beast. Even blind freddy can see that. The Bible is crystal clear in principle: no mask no test no vax.

 

[Paidiske]

Don't know what that means. Normal healthy ppl are ok, old sick ppl are at risk.

What we are seeing at the moment is that the virus is spreading from one nursing home to another through the staff. My point is that we are not able to seal the elderly up in a quarantine bubble, in which they have no contact with other folk (who have contact with the wider community). And we saw the same thing with the quarantine for returned travellers. The idea of "quarantine on the edges" isn't realistic.

And that concern is not displayed by destroying the future.

Well, this is an interesting piece of rather overblown rhetoric. Yes, the current circumstances are hard in all sorts of ways. But the current difficulties are not permanent. The future is being shaped differently to what we might have expected, but it is not being "destroyed." There will be recovery and growth afterwards, and that also might take all sorts of forms which we can't anticipate yet.

Where do you think this is all heading? Bio-tyranny, mark of Beast. Even blind freddy can see that. The Bible is crystal clear in principle: no mask no test no vax.

Well, I'm not blind Freddy, and I see this as both very bad exegesis and very poor reading of our society.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Yes, there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run...think I'll just wait the vaccine out, but it makes me wonder.

 

[Occams Barber]

Well that's convenient. But nothing happens without God's permission. Where do you think this is all heading? Bio-tyranny, mark of Beast. Even blind freddy can see that. The Bible is crystal clear in principle: no mask no test no vax.

Bio-tyranny ? Mark of the Beast? Biblical confirmation of something about masks, tests and vaccination?

This conspiracy stuff progresses from the sublime to the ridiculous. Next it'll be Bill Gates starring as the Antichrist to deliver mind control microchips along with 5G towers causing the virus. All part of the plot to Globalise the World to some end I've yet to understand.

Do you think it's possible you may be going a bit over the top on this?
OB

 

[Tanj]

stop pretending to be Christian, so I've heard it said.

At least you have stopped pretending to be pro life, so that's a start.

 

[Tanj]

If nature were to run its course, and everyone caught Covid-19, the body would produce a natural immunity to what is essentially another cold and flu strain.

Other people have pointed out that everything you posted about fatality rates in the OP is incorrect, I just wanted to add this part is entirely untrue as well. All current evidence suggests that COVID immunity is transient.

Also, coronavirus is another cold and flu strain in the same way salmon are another horse and snake species.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

What we are seeing at the moment is that the virus is spreading from one nursing home to another through the staff. My point is that we are not able to seal the elderly up in a quarantine bubble, in which they have no contact with other folk (who have contact with the wider community). And we saw the same thing with the quarantine for returned travellers. The idea of "quarantine on the edges" isn't realistic.

Disagree. First you'd need to show that the data is reliable. PCR tests according to the CDC and TGA are not conclusive for nCov, not specific for nCov, not designed for clinical diagnostic use, unvalidated, not designed for binary results, not capable of determining viral load, and open to contamination.

So the number of ppl being correctly diagnosed, and the number of nursing home patients dying of other things, is an unknown at best.

Well, this is an interesting piece of rather overblown rhetoric. Yes, the current circumstances are hard in all sorts of ways. But the current difficulties are not permanent. The future is being shaped differently to what we might have expected, but it is not being "destroyed." There will be recovery and growth afterwards, and that also might take all sorts of forms which we can't anticipate yet.

Sure, every national economy has just been gutted, ppl are committing suicide everywhere, and the govt hasn't even started to 'turn off the gas' of free money yet. They're going to make it get a lot worse, then offer the mark of the beast. the Certificate of Vaccination ID (COVID) in exchange for 'your life back', such as it will be. Be not deceived.

Well, I'm not blind Freddy, and I see this as both very bad exegesis and very poor reading of our society.

Sorry you can't see it. Book of Revelation.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Do you think it's possible you may be going a bit over the top on this?

I sincerely hope so. But there's too much evidence to the contrary for me to accept face value here.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Other people have pointed out that everything you posted about fatality rates in the OP is incorrect, I just wanted to add this part is entirely untrue as well. All current evidence suggests that COVID immunity is transient.

Also, coronavirus is another cold and flu strain in the same way salmon are another horse and snake species.

Ah so you're back after failing to prove the 'virus' has been proven to exist let alone the PCR tests are reliable? Welcome in.

Transient Covid immunity. But a vaccine would cover the field, right?

 

[Paidiske]

Disagree. First you'd need to show that the data is reliable.

Of course there will be a margin of error. But are you really telling me you don't accept the evidence that we have had "leakage" from tightly controlled environments like the quarantine hotels and nursing homes?

They're going to make it get a lot worse, then offer the mark of the beast. the Certificate of Vaccination ID (COVID) in exchange for 'your life back', such as it will be. Be not deceived.

Dude. That's not what the mark of the beast is. You need to do some sound reading on how to understand Revelation, not buy into whatever random bizarre conspiracy theory is floating around.

 

[Nithavela]

I agree. Save the world, wipe out mankind.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Of course there will be a margin of error. But are you really telling me you don't accept the evidence that we have had "leakage" from tightly controlled environments like the quarantine hotels and nursing homes?

The tests simply should not be relied on. Even if the CDC is saying it's 50% accurate (which has no basis in reality because there's no gold standard, for starters), then how would you know on the toss of a coin.

Dude. That's not what the mark of the beast is. You need to do some sound reading on how to understand Revelation, not buy into whatever random bizarre conspiracy theory is floating around.

What's that? Can't buy or sell without it. It's looking like it's going to be the bio-marker of the vaccinated. You might have a look at the big players here and see the enmeshed interests of digital ID and vax. The whole raft of new techno-legal restrictions and unquestioned suspension of constitutional and human rights I'd have thought might raise an eyebrow.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I agree. Save the world, wipe out mankind.

Starting with the Dutch lol. Or maybe Sweden, they're 'herd immunising' aren't they?

 

[Paidiske]

The tests simply should not be relied on.

So, basically, you don't think any of the reported infections are reliable information? If that's so, your basic sense of reality is so divergent from mine I don't think we can really have a conversation.

From what I know of the way this is being handled (and remember my original training was in immunology and genetics) the margin of error is not so big. PCR is a very basic, standard method for detecting DNA (or RNA, in the case of this virus) and works very well.

What's that? Can't buy or sell without it...The whole raft of new techno-legal restrictions and unquestioned suspension of constitutional and human rights I'd have thought might raise an eyebrow.

In this age of online shopping, (as my bank balance all too sadly attests), there's surprisingly little you can't buy or sell, even without any contact with another human being. Pandemic restrictions or even strict quarantine pose absolutely no threat to your ability to buy or sell.

I have not seen any suspension of human rights. In fact, I have seen the government uphold human rights (such as the right to refuse to be tested, which became very controversial in Victoria) even when it is a problem for public health.

Yes, there are some restrictions that aren't exactly as I would do things. Yes, I think that some decisions could have been made differently in the detail. But the overall thrust of what's happening - limiting interpersonal contact for the sake of not being overwhelmed by a pandemic - is entirely appropriate and completely within the scope of how a liberal democracy manages a state of emergency.

 

[Nithavela]

Starting with the Dutch lol. Or maybe Sweden, they're 'herd immunising' aren't they?

Indeed, and they have the highest death rate per capita to show for it.

 

[DamianWarS]

If you could help save the world and future generations, but had to take a 1 in 10,000, 5,000 or 1,000 risk of dying in the process, would you take that chance?

In Australia, the current chances of a normal healthy individual who gets diagnosed with Covid-19 dying from it are less than 1 in 10,000. The average age of Covid deaths is around 80. Average life expectancy is around 82 years of age.

The ongoing and permanent damage to society, the economy, livelihoods, the mental and physical health and wellbeing of ordinary people under severe countermeasures is incalculable.

The risks of health impacts for poorly tested vaccines, their efficacy and the delays in preparing them create additional uncertainty.

If nature were to run its course, and everyone caught Covid-19, the body would produce a natural immunity to what is essentially another cold and flu strain.

So why not take the chance, have faith in God, let nature run its course, return to normal life and be honoured by your children for your contribution to saving the world and beating the bug?

this is the trolley problem

as the video demonstrates most would sacrifice the few (or the one) to save the many (at least on paper) so long as it's just about pushing a button, but the moment your hands are directly involved with killing the few to the save the many or we are intimately connected with the few we step back and let the trolley plow on through.

choosing the few is a utilitarianism view where you pick the one that makes the most people happy. If a sinister-looking man with a gun approached you asking for you're friend do you lie to the man or do you tell him where your friend is? The utilitarianism view would do whatever is necessary to keep the most happiness even if it means compromising values. The counter-argument is of course if lying is wrong than it is always wrong not just sometimes or when we feel the circumstance allows it because if that latter is true then it makes morals relative to whatever you deem necessary. So what happens when the ones closest to you are dying of COVID? do you continue to advocate this sort of "let whatever will happen, happen" sentiment? or do you encourage people to take measures seriously because they can saves lives now? Whatever your answer it should be consistent with your answer when it's abstract and you're just pushing a button to save the many.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

Nm

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

Average life expectancy is around 82 years of age.

Which is entirely attributable to science, better nutrition and healthcare.

What do you figure life expectancy was on Middle Ages when they trusted in God and let the nature run it’s course type of philosophy since they hadn’t figured out stuff like germ theory ?

It is just the sign of modern complacency that we forget the long road we had to get the life expectancies we have now so we can afford to go back to pseudo science and trust in God to keep us alive mentality.

Ridiculous.

 

[Occams Barber]

What's that? Can't buy or sell without it. It's looking like it's going to be the bio-marker of the vaccinated. You might have a look at the big players here and see the enmeshed interests of digital ID and vax. The whole raft of new techno-legal restrictions and unquestioned suspension of constitutional and human rights I'd have thought might raise an eyebrow.

I'm just thankful you don't live next door.
OB