Councils can err, councils have erred...

JM · Jan 5, 2023

Gavin does a fantastic job explaining and dismantling the Orthodox (and Catholic) use of images in worship.

00:00 - Introduction 01:59 - 1) What is Icon Veneration? 07:58 - What is at Stake? 12:34 - 2) Historical Overview 13:14 - Summary of Scholarship 18:50 - PHASE 1: Ante-Nicene Church 22:50 - Justin Martyr + Athenagoras 23:28 - Marcus Minucius Felix 24:42 - Origen vs. Celsus 25:47 - Clement of Alexandria 26:29 - Irenaeus 26:48 - Tertullian 27:56 - Lactantius 29:06 - Arnobius 30:39 - Synod of Elvira 31:37 - PHASE 2: Nicaea I to Nicaea II 33:32 - Epiphanius 35:43 - Eusebius 38:57 - Augustine 40:48 - Philoxenus of Mabbug 42:07 - Gregory the Great 46:09 - PHASE 3: Nicaea II and Beyond 47:57 - Empress Irene 48:32 - Council of Hieria 49:31 - The Pentarchy 50:26 - The Western Respone 56:19 - 3) Biblical Interpretation 58:18 - Latria vs. Dulia 1:02:21 - The Ark of the Covenant 1:07:18 - The Bronze Serpent 1:08:03 - Other Concerns 1:12:47 - Concluding Summary

A couple of posts I wrote years ago that might be helpful.

Pious Use of Icons?

A question I was recently asked: JM – do you think they (icons and images) can be helpful for the faithful to enter into more pious prayer? My answer: The only aspiration for the Christian sh…

feileadhmor.wordpress.com

the Controversy Over Images

The other day while discussing church history with a friend and fellow believer I was reminded of the Iconoclast Controversy or the Controversy Over Images that took place between 680 and 850ad. Fo…

feileadhmor.wordpress.com

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Jonaitis · Jan 5, 2023

Wow, this is the most articulate constructive criticism of the use of icons in public and private worship I had ever come across. I would be interested in a direct response from the Orthodox/Roman Catholic camp on this Forum. This gentlemen has presented the opposing view impartially, fairly and clearly with all humility and proper discernment, and does not shy to expose the abuse of quotations by our iconoclast fathers in the West. If there is any negative backlash from this video, it should be directed at the supposed flaws of the argument presented here.

Thank you JM, this was encouraging.

dzheremi · Jan 5, 2023

I'd like to see a citation for his claims about Mor Philoxenos of Mabbug. I don't have my copy of his Discourses yet (I ordered it a few years ago from a book seller in Australia, but it never came), but I do have both The Practical Christology of Philoxenos of Mabbug by David A. Michelson (OUP, 2015) and the volume on him published by the St. Ephrem Ecumenical Research Institute as part of their correspondence course on Syrian Christian heritage, which was authored by the world's foremost living authority on Syriac Christianity, Dr. Sebastian Brock. I don't recall that quote anywhere in either of these works, and Michelson's book especially does not shy away from controversy concerning the saint, so I would think it would be in there if anywhere (from what I'm able to gather without having a copy, his Discourses are mainly of a monastic nature, and hence focus on asceticism rather than points of doctrinal controversy).

JM · Jan 5, 2023

dzheremi said:
I'd like to see a citation for his claims about Mor Philoxenos of Mabbug. I don't have my copy of his Discourses yet (I ordered it a few years ago from a book seller in Australia, but it never came), but I do have both The Practical Christology of Philoxenos of Mabbug by David A. Michelson (OUP, 2015) and the volume on him published by the St. Ephrem Ecumenical Research Institute as part of their correspondence course on Syrian Christian heritage, which was authored by the world's foremost living authority on Syriac Christianity, Dr. Sebastian Brock. I don't recall that quote anywhere in either of these works, and Michelson's book especially does not shy away from controversy concerning the saint, so I would think it would be in there if anywhere (from what I'm able to gather without having a copy, his Discourses are mainly of a monastic nature, and hence focus on asceticism rather than points of doctrinal controversy).

Keep in mind Gavin Ortlund is no slacker, he is a legit scholar and published author. For more information check out his video on the Orthodox Christian Theology channel with Craig. He is not to be taken lightly as some YouTuber with an axe to grind.

Yours,

j

JSRG · Jan 5, 2023

Jonaitis said:
Wow, this is the most articulate constructive criticism of the use of icons in public and private worship I had ever come across. I would be interested in a direct response from the Orthodox/Roman Catholic camp on this Forum.

This is the Reformed subforum, and all denominational subforums like this are bound by the rules that "if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against it's theology". I'm not sure how much of a direct response for something like this would be allowed in this specific subforum. If you want responses from those groups, you would do better to put it in a more open forum.

Additionally, the video is over an hour long. That's a fairly lengthy video to expect someone on a forum to give a detailed response to. Not to say it won't happen--just that it's a bit of an ask. If you're curious about responses, you'd probably be better off looking for responses on YouTube--I know others have given direct responses to some of Gavin Ortlund's other videos (and he has himself given responses to other peoples' videos). That said, video responses take time and this video literally went up today, so you'd probably have to wait a while for anything like that to happen.

JM · Jan 5, 2023

Jonaitis said:
Wow, this is the most articulate constructive criticism of the use of icons in public and private worship I had ever come across. I would be interested in a direct response from the Orthodox/Roman Catholic camp on this Forum. This gentlemen has presented the opposing view impartially, fairly and clearly with all humility and proper discernment, and does not shy to expose the abuse of quotations by our iconoclast fathers in the West. If there is any negative backlash from this video, it should be directed at the supposed flaws of the argument presented here.

Thank you JM, this was encouraging.

Dr. Jordan Cooper is excellent on this subject as well. He's Lutheran, formerly Reformed, and knows his stuff.

Aerial Toll Houses is another BIG red flag when it comes to Orthodoxy so-called. Orthodoxy in same ways is worse than Catholicism.

When Dreams Become Doctrine

Most Protestants have never heard of “Aerial Toll Houses.” The idea of Aerial Toll Houses are built upon some personal revelations of Eastern Orthodox saints, Tradition and a verse or t…

feileadhmor.wordpress.com

Yours in the Lord,

jm

JM · Jan 5, 2023

JSRG said:
This is the Reformed subforum, and all denominational subforums like this are bound by the rules that "if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against it's theology". I'm not sure how much of a direct response for something like this would be allowed in this specific subforum. If you want responses from those groups, you would do better to put it in a more open forum.

Additionally, the video is over an hour long. That's a fairly lengthy video to expect someone on a forum to give a detailed response to. Not to say it won't happen--just that it's a bit of an ask. If you're curious about responses, you'd probably be better off looking for responses on YouTube--I know others have given direct responses to some of Gavin Ortlund's other videos (and he has himself given responses to other peoples' videos). That said, video responses take time and this video literally went up today, so you'd probably have to wait a while for anything like that to happen.

A lot of what I've seen in response is nothing more than rhetoric. Not even worth the effort, Ortlund has done and continues to do a fantastic job tearing down idols.

Jonaitis · Jan 5, 2023

JSRG said:
This is the Reformed subforum, and all denominational subforums like this are bound by the rules that "if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against it's theology". I'm not sure how much of a direct response for something like this would be allowed in this specific subforum. If you want responses from those groups, you would do better to put it in a more open forum.

Additionally, the video is over an hour long. That's a fairly lengthy video to expect someone on a forum to give a detailed response to. Not to say it won't happen--just that it's a bit of an ask. If you're curious about responses, you'd probably be better off looking for responses on YouTube--I know others have given direct responses to some of Gavin Ortlund's other videos (and he has himself given responses to other peoples' videos). That said, video responses take time and this video literally went up today, so you'd probably have to wait a while for anything like that to happen.

I apologize for making you write this post.

JM · Jan 5, 2023

Jonaitis said:
I apologize for making you write this post.

Put your foot down, don't give ground, idols are not to be worshipped and trust me....they are even when Orthodox orthodoxy tells the people in the pew not to. When I faithfully attended St. Nektarios Orthodox Church I was told if I didn't accept icons I was going to hell, outside the church and would die in my sins lol, sure. Whatever. Those anathemas are real.

JSRG · Jan 5, 2023

Jonaitis said:
I apologize for making you write this post.

Eh? What's to apologize for?

JM · Jan 5, 2023

JSRG said:
Eh? What's to apologize for?

I like this post.

Jonaitis · Jan 5, 2023

JSRG said:
Eh? What's to apologize for?

Wasting your time.

JM · Jan 5, 2023

Jonaitis said:
Wasting your time.

Check out Ortlunds other videos where he politely lays waste to other false doctrines.

Jonaitis · Jan 5, 2023

JM said:
Put your foot down, don't give ground, idols are not to be worshipped and trust me....they are even when Orthodox orthodoxy tells the people in the pew not to. When I faithfully attended St. Nektarios Orthodox Church I was told if I didn't accept icons I was going to hell, outside the church and would die in my sins lol, sure. Whatever. Those anathemas are real.

I am confused, brother, about the correlation of my quote and your comment.

JM · Jan 5, 2023

Jonaitis said:
I am confused, brother, about the correlation of my quote and your comment.

Don't say sorry when confronting false teaching. That's all.

You may enjoy this thread for eschatology: lhttps://www.christianforums.com/threads/post-millennialism-safe-house.8176936/

Jonaitis · Jan 5, 2023

JM said:
Don't say sorry when confronting false teaching. That's all.

You may enjoy this thread for eschatology: lhttps://www.christianforums.com/threads/post-millennialism-safe-house.8176936/

I apologized for making a man explain the rules of this subforum and explaining where I could find such a discussion. It was entirely based on one or two sentences in my first post. It was a great way to evade the OP and turn the discussion aside to a long and unnecessary explanation, insulting the aim of this thread altogether.

JSRG · Jan 5, 2023

Jonaitis said:
Wasting your time.

My time wasn't wasted. You asked about a rebuttal or response to the video from a Catholic and/or Orthodox, and I told you that you probably won't be finding one in this topic, but gave some suggestions on how to possibly find one. You asked and got a (hopefully useful) answer. That's not a waste of time.

ozso · Jan 6, 2023

When it comes to this sort of thing my personal view is, if Jesus and Paul didn't talk about it or mention it, then I'm not into it.

dzheremi · Jan 6, 2023

JM said:
Keep in mind Gavin Ortlund is no slacker, he is a legit scholar and published author. For more information check out his video on the Orthodox Christian Theology channel with Craig. He is not to be taken lightly as some YouTuber with an axe to grind.

Yours,

j

I didn't mean to imply that he was. Apologies if that's how my post read. I meant it quite literally and neutrally: I'd like to see his source on this, as I know the saint in question, but not the incident or quote he talks about in the video clip.

ozso · Jan 6, 2023

JM said:
Gavin does a fantastic job explaining and dismantling the Orthodox (and Catholic) use of images in worship.

00:00 - Introduction 01:59 - 1) What is Icon Veneration? 07:58 - What is at Stake? 12:34 - 2) Historical Overview 13:14 - Summary of Scholarship 18:50 - PHASE 1: Ante-Nicene Church 22:50 - Justin Martyr + Athenagoras 23:28 - Marcus Minucius Felix 24:42 - Origen vs. Celsus 25:47 - Clement of Alexandria 26:29 - Irenaeus 26:48 - Tertullian 27:56 - Lactantius 29:06 - Arnobius 30:39 - Synod of Elvira 31:37 - PHASE 2: Nicaea I to Nicaea II 33:32 - Epiphanius 35:43 - Eusebius 38:57 - Augustine 40:48 - Philoxenus of Mabbug 42:07 - Gregory the Great 46:09 - PHASE 3: Nicaea II and Beyond 47:57 - Empress Irene 48:32 - Council of Hieria 49:31 - The Pentarchy 50:26 - The Western Respone 56:19 - 3) Biblical Interpretation 58:18 - Latria vs. Dulia 1:02:21 - The Ark of the Covenant 1:07:18 - The Bronze Serpent 1:08:03 - Other Concerns 1:12:47 - Concluding Summary

A couple of posts I wrote years ago that might be helpful.

Pious Use of Icons?

A question I was recently asked: JM – do you think they (icons and images) can be helpful for the faithful to enter into more pious prayer? My answer: The only aspiration for the Christian sh…

feileadhmor.wordpress.com

the Controversy Over Images

The other day while discussing church history with a friend and fellow believer I was reminded of the Iconoclast Controversy or the Controversy Over Images that took place between 680 and 850ad. Fo…

feileadhmor.wordpress.com

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Very informative. Good teacher, easy to listen to.

JM said:
Dr. Jordan Cooper is excellent on this subject as well. He's Lutheran, formerly Reformed, and knows his stuff.

I'm familiar with Cooper's videos. Like Ortlund he's quite brilliant while being down to earth and easy to follow.

Councils can err, councils have erred...

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