Council of Cinea?

~Anastasia~ · May 31, 2017

Historical Christianity said:
What better name for a man destined to drive Rome out of Judea?

Yes, they were wrong in that expectation, as I recall ...

HARK! · Nov 1, 2017

PureWolf said:
I need some help. A friend mentioned something called the Council Cinea which gave us the Jesus a lot of us know. He said that Jesus was actually a man named Jeshua

There is no "J" in Hebrew; and it didn't exist in the time of Yahshua.

History
The letter J originated as a swash letter I, used for the letter I at the end of Roman numerals when following another I, as in XXIIJ or xxiij instead of XXIII or xxiii for the Roman numeral representing 23. A distinctive usage emerged in Middle High German.[3] Gian Giorgio Trissino (1478–1550) was the first to explicitly distinguish I and J as representing separate sounds,

Source: J - Wikipedia

His name was Yahshua. It is a Hebrew sentence name.

Yah is the hyphenated form if YHWH. It is our Father's name.

Shua is the Hebrew word for saves, or salvation or savior.

Yah-shua, or YHWH saves, or YHWH is our salvation, or, YHWH is our savior.

(CLV) Isa 43:11
I, I am Yahweh, And there is no Saviour apart from Me.

Our mashiach had a beautiful name. What I don't understand is why when it came to everyone else who had that name in scripture, it was translated as "Joshua."

ViaCrucis · Nov 2, 2017

HARK! said:
There is no "J" in Hebrew; and it didn't exist in the time of Yahshua.

History
The letter J originated as a swash letter I, used for the letter I at the end of Roman numerals when following another I, as in XXIIJ or xxiij instead of XXIII or xxiii for the Roman numeral representing 23. A distinctive usage emerged in Middle High German.[3] Gian Giorgio Trissino (1478–1550) was the first to explicitly distinguish I and J as representing separate sounds,

Source: J - Wikipedia

His name was Yahshua. It is a Hebrew sentence name.

Yah is the hyphenated form if YHWH. It is our Father's name.

Shua is the Hebrew word for saves, or salvation or savior.

Yah-shua, or YHWH saves, or YHWH is our salvation, or, YHWH is our savior.

(CLV) Isa 43:11
I, I am Yahweh, And there is no Saviour apart from Me.

Our mashiach had a beautiful name. What I don't understand is why when it came to everyone else who had that name in scripture, it was translated as "Joshua."

In Hebrew we have Yehoshua and Yeshua, we don't have "Yahshua". Yehoshua can be seen as in the case of Yehoshua ben Nun, and Yeshua can be seen in the case of Yeshua the high priest mentioned in Zechariah.

Also, the Holy Family didn't speak Hebrew, they spoke Aramaic. So if you want to know how to pronounce the Lord's name as His parents would have, then we are talking the Galilean dialect of Palestinian Jewish Aramaic. A pronunciation of Yeshu' is possible, Eshoa and Yisho' are other forms used in modern Aramaic (Syriac).

In any event "Yahshua" is certainly not His name, as that isn't a name in either Hebrew or Aramaic.

And at the end of the day "Jesus" is fine. If the pronunciation was in anyway that important than the New Testament wouldn't have used the standard Greek transliteration of Ἰησοῦς.

-CryptoLutheran

Radagast · Nov 2, 2017

PureWolf said:
I need some help. A friend mentioned something called the Council Cinea which gave us the Jesus a lot of us know.

Do you mean Nicea?

In any case, he's wrong. The name of Jesus comes to us from the New Testament, which was written in Greek.

In Greek the name is Iēsous. That's also the Greek version of the Hebrew name Joshua. We don't know for certain how Jesus' friends would have said his name (they would have spoken Aramaic), but it probably wasn't "Yeshua" (as CryptoLutheran has pointed out). Jesus is the ordinary way of saying His name in English, and that's fine.

PureWolf said:
Also, I know that the Vatican took 14 books out of the Bible.

No they didn't. All the original Bible books are still there.

HARK! · Nov 2, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
In Hebrew we have Yehoshua and Yeshua, we don't have "Yahshua". Yehoshua can be seen as in the case of Yehoshua ben Nun, and Yeshua can be seen in the case of Yeshua the high priest mentioned in Zechariah.

Also, the Holy Family didn't speak Hebrew, they spoke Aramaic. So if you want to know how to pronounce the Lord's name as His parents would have, then we are talking the Galilean dialect of Palestinian Jewish Aramaic. A pronunciation of Yeshu' is possible, Eshoa and Yisho' are other forms used in modern Aramaic (Syriac).

In any event "Yahshua" is certainly not His name, as that isn't a name in either Hebrew or Aramaic.

And at the end of the day "Jesus" is fine. If the pronunciation was in anyway that important than the New Testament wouldn't have used the standard Greek transliteration of Ἰησοῦς.

-CryptoLutheran

Ipse dixit
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Bare assertion fallacy)

The Roman politician Marcus Tullius Cicero coined the phrase Ipse dixit, which translates from the Latin as "He, himself, said it"
Ipse dixit (Latin for "he himself said it") is an assertion without proof; or a dogmatic expression of opinion.[1]

The fallacy of defending a proposition by baldly asserting that it is "just how it is" distorts the argument by opting out of it entirely: the claimant declares an issue to be intrinsic, and not changeable.[2]

Ipse dixit - Wikipedia

The Encyclopedia Judaica, Volume 10, page 10
JESUS(d. 30 c.e.), whom Christianity sees as its founder and object of faith, was a Jew
who lived toward the end of the Second Commonwealth period.
THE NAME, BIRTH, AND DEATH DATE OF JESUS. Jesus is the common Greek
form of the Hebrew name Joshua (in Heb. Yahshua). Jesus' father, Joseph (Yahseph), his
mother, Mary (in Heb. Miriam), and his brothers James, Joses, Judah, and Simon (Mark
6:3) likewise bore very popular Hebrew names.

The Jewish Encyclopedia, Volume 9, page 153
A distinctive characteristic of Bible onomatology is the frequency of composite names,
which form at times even complete sentences, as in the case of Isaiah's son Shear-jashub
(="the remnant shall return"). In the majority of cases these composite names are
theophorous, referring to, or actually mentioning...the name of Yahweh using the
shortened poetic form YAH.

The Interpreter's Dictionary, Volume 3, page 505
There is an increasing tendency, especially in the 7th Century b.c. to use compound
names which state a fact or express a wish... The most numerous are names compounded
with 'YAH'... which number over 150 names in the Bible and are almost entirely
personal or family names.

The Theological Dictionary Of The New Testament, Kittel and Bromiley, Volume 3, page 284, tells us
that the name Jesus (Iesous) is a Greek form of the Hebrew proper Name Yahshua ( .)עשוהיKeep in
mind, however, that this name Jesus carries none of the meaning of the original Hebrew Name Yahshua,
which means Yahweh is salvation. We see below that AFTER the return from exile The Jews shortened
the name Yahshua to Yeshua again out of reverent superstition.

.....And you feel that the meaning of the name of the Messiah is unimportant?

(CLV) Jn 5:43
I have come in the name of My Father, and you are not getting Me. If another should be coming in his own name, him you will get.

Radagast · Nov 2, 2017

HARK! said:
The Encyclopedia Judaica, Volume 10, page 10.

Nice unbiased source for information about Christianity. Not.

ViaCrucis · Nov 3, 2017

יְהוֹשֻׁעַ Yehoshua.

Notice the two dots under the yod, that's the niqqud known as a shva, and it indicates the pronunciation of the vowel which sounds like English "e". The dot over the vav is a cholam "o", the three dots under the shin (and it's a shin rather than a sin because of the right-hand dot over it) are a kubutz "u".

Thus we render יְהוֹשֻׁעַ as YeHoShuA, the ayin (which is a voiced pharyngeal frictive and has no analogue in English) at the end of the word has qamatz under it, "a".

The other form יֵשׁוּעַ contains a tzere, which also makes an "e" sound, and like before the shin is a shin, the vav here has a shuruk "u", and so יֵשׁוּעַ is rendered YeShUA.

In order to get יְהוֹשֻׁעַ to be read as "Yahshua" we would need to have an entirely different niqqud here, such as a qamatz. We would also need to ignore the cholam. To get "Yahshua" out of יֵשׁוּעַ we would need to not only change the tzere to something like a qamatz, we would also need to add the letter hah.

There's still the fact that Jesus and His family weren't speaking Hebrew. They spoke Aramaic.

-CryptoLutheran

FireDragon76 · Nov 3, 2017

There's a kernel of truth to what your friend is saying but you can take that too far, easily.

HARK! · Nov 3, 2017

Radagast said:
Nice unbiased source for information about Christianity. Not.

What part of that excerpt can you prove is biased? I suspect that you're biased regarding the pronunciation of the Messiah's name.

HARK! · Nov 3, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
הוֹשֻׁעַ Yehoshua.

Notice the two dots under the yod, that's the niqqud known as a shva, and it indicates the pronunciation of the vowel which sounds like English "e". The dot over the vav is a cholam "o", the three dots under the shin (and it's a shin rather than a sin because of the right-hand dot over it) are a kubutz "u".

Thus we render יְהוֹשֻׁעַ as YeHoShuA, the ayin (which is a voiced pharyngeal frictive and has no analogue in English) at the end of the word has qamatz under it, "a".

The other form יֵשׁוּעַ contains a tzere, which also makes an "e" sound, and like before the shin is a shin, the vav here has a shuruk "u", and so יֵשׁוּעַ is rendered YeShUA.

In order to get יְהוֹשֻׁעַ to be read as "Yahshua" we would need to have an entirely different niqqud here, such as a qamatz. We would also need to ignore the cholam. To get "Yahshua" out of יֵשׁוּעַ we would need to not only change the tzere to something like a qamatz, we would also need to add the letter hah.

Ex post facto!

Niqqud
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

NiIn Hebrew orthography, niqqud or nikkud (Hebrew: נִקּוּד, Modern nikud, Tiberian niqqûḏ; "dotting, pointing" or Hebrew: נְקֻדּוֹת, Modern nekudot, Tiberian nəquddôṯ; "dots") is a system of diacritical signs used to represent vowels or distinguish between alternative pronunciations of letters of the Hebrew alphabet. Several such diacritical systems were developed in the Early Middle Ages. The most widespread system, and the only one still used to a significant degree today, was created by the Masoretes of Tiberias in the second half of the first millennium AD...

ViaCrucis said:

There's still the fact that Jesus and His family weren't speaking Hebrew. They spoke Aramaic.

Click to expand...

The Tanakh (/tɑːˈnɑːx/;[1] Hebrew: תַּנַ"ךְ‎, pronounced [taˈnaχ] or [təˈnax]; also Tenakh, Tenak, Tanach), also called the Mikra or Hebrew Bible, is the canonical collection of Jewish texts, which is also a textual source for the Christian Old Testament. These texts are composed mainly in Biblical Hebrew, with some passages in Biblical Aramaic (in the books of Daniel, Ezra and a few others). The traditional Hebrew text is known as the Masoretic Text.

Tanakh - Wikipedia

So Yahshua couldn't read the Tanakh?!

(CLV) Lk 4:16
And He came to Nazareth, where He was reared, and, according to His custom ion the day of the sabbaths, He entered into the synagogue and rose to read.

(CLV) Lk 4:17
And handed to Him was a scroll of the prophet Isaiah, and, opening the scroll, He found the place where it was written

So these verses of Luke are in error?!

In case you didn't catch on the first time; I'd really appreciate it if you would cite your sources, instead of expecting me to accept what you say, on your "say so."

HARK! · Nov 3, 2017

More Hebrew sentence names:

Samuel – should be Shemuyl meaning “Heard of Yahweh”
Daniel - should be Daniyl meaning “Yahweh is my judge”
Elijah– should be Eliyyahu meaning “my God is Yahweh”
Isaiah– should be Yesha’Yahu meaning “Yahweh is salvation”
Hosea – should be Hosheyah meaning “Yahweh saves”
Joel – should be Yahyl meaning “Yahweh is our strength”
Amos – should be Amosyah meaning “Corroborated by Yahweh”
Obadiah – should be Obeadyah meaning “Worshipper of Yahweh”
Jonah – should be Yahnah meaning “Ornament of Yahweh”
Micah – should be Micahyah meaning “Who is like Yahweh”
Nahum – should be Nachumyah meaning “Consolation of Yahweh”
Zephaniah – should be Zephanyah meaning “Protected by Yahweh”
Haggai – should be Chagyah meaning “Feast of Yahweh”
Zechariah – should be Zecharyah meaning “Remembrance of Yahweh"
Malachi – should be Malakyah meaning “Messenger of Yahweh”
Matthew – should be Mattithyah meaning “Gift of Yahweh”
John – should be Yahchanan meaning “Yahweh is merciful”
Paul – should be Sha’ul meaning “asked of Yahweh”
Jesus/Joshua – should be Yahshua meaning “Yahweh is salvation”

joshua 1 9 · Nov 6, 2017

PureWolf said:
I need some help. A friend mentioned something called the Council Cinea which gave us the Jesus a lot of us know. He said that Jesus was actually a man named Jeshua. This makes me concerned. I want to be right with God and know that I know what is true and what He intended for us to know. How can I be right if man has molded our Father's words and teaching so much? Also, I know that the Vatican took 14 books out of the Bible. How do we know we're not missing some vital information pertinent to our salvation? Please help.

Moses had all of God's plan of salvation. Nothing has been added. The problem is understanding what Moses wrote and knowing how to apply that to our lives. One day I was reading the 119 Psalm and David was explaining the law, commandments, ordinances and precepts of God. All of this was given for our benefit and well being. This was a new concept for me. I remember when I was in school and it was as if all the rules were for the benefit of the teachers to make their life easier. With God everything is for our benefit. Jesus sacrificed Himself for our sake. God's love is focused on the beloved. He wants what is best for us and He is willing to give His Son to sacrifice Himself for us. In the world love is to often based on what makes people feel good. People want others to sacrifice for them. They do not want to have to sacrifice themselves for the sake of others. Even though loving, caring, giving people are very happy people.

The Bible was written for us today. To guide us in how to live our lives. Also Jesus lived His life as an example for us to follow. So we should seek to be like Jesus. He went about preaching, teaching and healing the sick. That is what we are to do today, to follow the example He set for us.

ViaCrucis · Nov 7, 2017

HARK! said:
Ex post facto!

Niqqud
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

NiIn Hebrew orthography, niqqud or nikkud (Hebrew: נִקּוּד, Modern nikud, Tiberian niqqûḏ; "dotting, pointing" or Hebrew: נְקֻדּוֹת, Modern nekudot, Tiberian nəquddôṯ; "dots") is a system of diacritical signs used to represent vowels or distinguish between alternative pronunciations of letters of the Hebrew alphabet. Several such diacritical systems were developed in the Early Middle Ages. The most widespread system, and the only one still used to a significant degree today, was created by the Masoretes of Tiberias in the second half of the first millennium AD...

The Tanakh (/tɑːˈnɑːx/;[1] Hebrew: תַּנַ"ךְ‎, pronounced [taˈnaχ] or [təˈnax]; also Tenakh, Tenak, Tanach), also called the Mikra or Hebrew Bible, is the canonical collection of Jewish texts, which is also a textual source for the Christian Old Testament. These texts are composed mainly in Biblical Hebrew, with some passages in Biblical Aramaic (in the books of Daniel, Ezra and a few others). The traditional Hebrew text is known as the Masoretic Text.

Tanakh - Wikipedia

So Yahshua couldn't read the Tanakh?!

For all I know the Lord was able to read and write Hebrew. But that's irrelevant to the point I made, which was that Aramaic was the language Jesus and His family spoke, because Aramaic was the spoken language of the Jews in the region of Palestine. Specifically Jesus and His family would have spoken the Galilean dialect of Jewish Palestinian Aramaic.

(CLV) Lk 4:16
And He came to Nazareth, where He was reared, and, according to His custom ion the day of the sabbaths, He entered into the synagogue and rose to read.

(CLV) Lk 4:17
And handed to Him was a scroll of the prophet Isaiah, and, opening the scroll, He found the place where it was written

So these verses of Luke are in error?!

No, and it's quite possible that the scroll here was written in Hebrew, though St. Luke's writing draws from the Septuagint. It's actually unclear whether the scroll here was in Hebrew, Aramaic, or even Greek, and I'm sure one can find arguments for any of these.

But, again, that's irrelevant. I didn't say Jesus didn't know Hebrew, I said the language Jesus and His family spoke was Aramaic. Even in the time of Ezra many Jews no longer understood Hebrew, as the Jewish people had adopted Aramaic while in captivity (Aramaic was the langua franca of the Neo-Babylonian Empire and the Persian Empire).

"And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people, for he was standing above all the people; and when he opened it, all the people stood up. Then Ezra blessed the Lord, the great God, and all the people answered, “Amen, Amen,” lifting up their hands. Then they bowed their heads and worshiped the Lord with their faces to the ground. Also Jeshua, Bani, Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodiah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, the Levites, helped the people to understand the law, while the people remained in their places. So they read from the book, from the law of God, with interpretation. They gave the sense, so that the people understood the reading." (Nehemiah 8:5-8)

Here we see that the people needed it explained to them. Note that Ezra-Nehemiah is itself written in Aramaic, not Hebrew.

In case you didn't catch on the first time; I'd really appreciate it if you would cite your sources, instead of expecting me to accept what you say, on your "say so."

Language of Jesus - Wikipedia
Jewish Palestinian Aramaic - Wikipedia
Judeo-Aramaic languages - Wikipedia

Here's a search with results dating from 100 BC to 100 AD of known Aramaic inscriptions from Judea.
Inscriptions of Israel/Palestine | Search

The New Testament preserves Aramaic words and phrases.

Jesus says "Talitha kum" in Mark 5:41
Jesus says "Ephphatha" in Mark 7:34
Jesus says "Abba" in Mark 14:36
Jesus uses the word "Raka" in Matthew 5:22
Jesus is called "Rabbouni" in John 20:16
Jesus says "Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani" in Mark 15:34
St. Paul uses "Abba" in Romans 8:15 and Galatians 4:6
St. Paul uses the expression "Maranatha" in 1 Corinthians 16:22
In Matthew 16 Jesus calls Simon bar Jonah (bar is Aramaic) "Peter", or in Greek "Petros", this is likely a translation, as St. Paul uses the Aramaic "Kepha" (rendered as Kephas/Cephas) in 1 Corinthians 15, and in Galatians when referring to St. Peter.

Numerous Aramaic names, Barnabas (Bar-Naba), Barabbas (Bar-Abba), Bartholomew (Bar-Tolmay), Thomas (Toma), Tabitha (Tabita), etc.

-CryptoLutheran

HARK! · Nov 7, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
Language of Jesus - Wikipedia

Thank you.

Hieronymus · Nov 7, 2017

jerrygab2 said:
Never heard such a thing and even searching didn't bring up anything. As far as books missing from the Bible it was early Protestants who removed them from the OT

Not exactly.
It's a matter of Septuagint versus Masoretic text iirc.
Either way, the Protestants went with the Jewish canon of the OT (but in a different order).

HARK! · Nov 7, 2017

Yeshua does not fulfill the scripture of coming in the Father's name; Yahshua does. Yahshua is a Hebrew name. Yeshua is not.

Luke 13
34 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone
those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children
together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you
were not willing. 35 Look, your house is left to you desolate. I tell
you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who
comes in the name of YHWH.’”

John 12:13
Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of
the YHWH (Yahweh)!

John 17:6
I have manifested thy name (Yahweh) unto the men which thou
gavest me out of the world”

This truth concerning the meaning of the name of the Messiah and the name of
God is a matter of salvation. As we read in Joel it is ONLY those who “call on
the name of Yahweh” shall be saved. Uttering the name Yahshua does just that,
calls out Yahweh IS salvation literally. The name “Yeshua” means nothing in
Hebrew.

Joel 2
30 “I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth, Blood, fire
and columns of smoke. 31 “The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood Before the great and awesome day of
Yahweh comes. 32 “And it will come about that whoever calls
on the name of Yahweh Will be saved:”

SteveCaruso · Nov 7, 2017

HARK! said:
Yeshua does not fulfill the scripture of coming in the Father's name; Yahshua does. Yahshua is a Hebrew name. Yeshua is not.

Luke 13
34 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone
those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children
together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you
were not willing. 35 Look, your house is left to you desolate. I tell
you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who
comes in the name of YHWH.’”

John 12:13
Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of
the YHWH (Yahweh)!

John 17:6
I have manifested thy name (Yahweh) unto the men which thou
gavest me out of the world”

This truth concerning the meaning of the name of the Messiah and the name of
God is a matter of salvation. As we read in Joel it is ONLY those who “call on
the name of Yahweh” shall be saved. Uttering the name Yahshua does just that,
calls out Yahweh IS salvation literally. The name “Yeshua” means nothing in
Hebrew.

Joel 2
30 “I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth, Blood, fire
and columns of smoke. 31 “The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood Before the great and awesome day of
Yahweh comes. 32 “And it will come about that whoever calls
on the name of Yahweh Will be saved:”

However "Yeshua" is the correct phonology in Galilean Aramaic, and what he was named at birth.

"Yahshua" would be like me calling you "HORK!" :-/ It's as Hebrew as "Yahshua" is, too.

(Which is to say, not.)

ViaCrucis · Nov 7, 2017

HARK! said:
Yeshua does not fulfill the scripture of coming in the Father's name; Yahshua does. Yahshua is a Hebrew name. Yeshua is not.

Luke 13
34 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone
those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children
together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you
were not willing. 35 Look, your house is left to you desolate. I tell
you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who
comes in the name of YHWH.’”

John 12:13
Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of
the YHWH (Yahweh)!

John 17:6
I have manifested thy name (Yahweh) unto the men which thou
gavest me out of the world”

This truth concerning the meaning of the name of the Messiah and the name of
God is a matter of salvation. As we read in Joel it is ONLY those who “call on
the name of Yahweh” shall be saved. Uttering the name Yahshua does just that,
calls out Yahweh IS salvation literally. The name “Yeshua” means nothing in
Hebrew.

Joel 2
30 “I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth, Blood, fire
and columns of smoke. 31 “The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood Before the great and awesome day of
Yahweh comes. 32 “And it will come about that whoever calls
on the name of Yahweh Will be saved:”

"YHVH" is not the unique name of the Father, it is a name ascribed to God, as such it is equally ascribable to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus is YHVH, even as the Father is YHVH. It is not a name which belongs to only one Person of the Holy Trinity, but applies equally to all three Persons of the Holy Trinity.

The Lord comes in the Father's name because the Son comes in the authority of the Father.

-CryptoLutheran

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