Could the Church survive without the scriptures?

mlepfitjw · Jan 21, 2021

Could the Church survive without the scriptures? Well. God allowed us to have them, so we could be able to find encouragement and support in this world we live in that can be very harsh at time... The bible is a gift. If I did not have them, I would have always remained the same person that once was... a hateful, careless human being.

2PhiloVoid · Jan 21, 2021

public hermit said:
I'm leaning that way, too (well, I changed my vote to Yes after a few responded as well). Why do you think it could?

Essentially because what is prior to the Bible is ... God's Existence.

So, in short, we wouldn't want to simply hold to an axiom asserting that God exists and we know this because the Bible says so ...

In fact, I think we'd want to consider that for the Bible to be true, there has to be more at play in our overall reality than that ... "It is written!"

Tone · Jan 21, 2021

2PhiloVoid said:
So, in short, we wouldn't want to simply hold to an axiom asserting that God exists and we know this because the Bible says so ...

I think we do.

Especially if we were just a little child with it sounding in our simple minds.

(I know lots of musical stuff going on!)

I think saying the Church could exist without the Bible is akin to saying we could exists without our mothers.

Or even like saying Jesus could exist without Mary.

And I know some will say, "Oh, well He did, as the preincarnate Word."

But, was He the Man Jesus Christ...could He be without being born of Mary and being a child and experiencing the world through his eyes like no other human being ever has, because every individual existence is absolutely unique?

It goes back to the historicity of our existence.

If we live in a really real space-time existence, and we believe that the Creator is in control of it...how can we conceive of a Salvation other than what He Himself revealed?

Taodeching · Jan 21, 2021

2PhiloVoid said:
Essentially because what is prior to the Bible is ... God's Existence.

So, in short, we wouldn't want to simply hold to an axiom asserting that God exists and we know this because the Bible says so ...[/quo

In fact, I think we'd want to consider that for the Bible to be true, there has to be more at play in our overall reality than that ... "It is written!"

Yet inevitably many protestants of the non Liturgical bent do just that

Tone · Jan 21, 2021

Without the Bible the Called out Ones would have no proper boundaries.

She would be relegated to follow the psychobabble of the day, which would only serve to erect walls that wouldn't keep the bad guys out...but, instead, to keep her shut in with them.

The Moedim (Cycles of Yah) are in sync with the Created order that we see in nature. This is the true liturgy and it is found in Torah, both old and renewed.

We are called out to walk as He walked.

His Boundary is the only one I am concerned about.

He is my Shepherd, and His Rod and His Staff Comfort me.

public hermit · Jan 21, 2021

Tone said:
Without the Bible the Called out Ones would have no proper boundaries.

Historically speaking, the Church has had some rule of faith. It appears that in the immediate generations following the Apostles, creedal formulas (like the Apostles' Creed) were developed to function as the boundaries of the faith. Eventually the NT scriptures became the rule of faith. So your intuition that there needs be some stable account of boundaries has historical support, I think.

Taodeching · Jan 21, 2021

They did fine without a Bible for 400 and would be fine if none existed now. It is not needed o be a Christian

2PhiloVoid · Jan 21, 2021

Tone said:
I think we do.

Especially if we were just a little child with it sounding in our simple minds.

(I know lots of musical stuff going on!)

I think saying the Church could exist without the Bible is akin to saying we could exists without our mothers.

Or even like saying Jesus could exist without Mary.

And I know some will say, "Oh, well He did, as the preincarnate Word."

But, was He the Man Jesus Christ...could He be without being born of Mary and being a child and experiencing the world through his eyes like no other human being ever has, because every individual existence is absolutely unique?

It goes back to the historicity of our existence.

If we live in a really real space-time existence, and we believe that the Creator is in control of it...how can we conceive of a Salvation other than what He Himself revealed?

Well then, it seems I need to clarify my meaning, Tone. If I may, allow me to reiterate:

We wouldn't want to simply hold to an axiom asserting that God exists and we know this ONLY because the Bible says so ...

Yeah. That's closer to what I wanted to say!

But, when I was speaking earlier, I had more in mind that the Church could exist without the New Testament writings. But granted, they, along with the O.T., have historically helped to keep some shape and centrality of focus to our Christian beliefs as a Church. And the Lord knows His people need some conceptual boundaries in writing, even with His Holy Spirit at work among them.

Tone · Jan 21, 2021

public hermit said:
Historically speaking, the Church has had some rule of faith. It appears that in the immediate generations following the Apostles, creedal formulas (like the Apostles' Creed) were developed to function as the boundaries of the faith. Eventually the NT scriptures became the rule of faith. So your intuition that there needs be some stable account of boundaries has historical support, I think.

I have been taught that the many lines on the Tallit gadol:

Are to represent the many boundaries of a righteous life.

So, one may see themselves within the protective layers of many little fences.

In fact, these are the things that the Pharisees were all about...and they initially erected them in order to protect the people of Elohim.

The thing of it is, is that they lost sight of the true righteousness of what Torah is all about, and they began to treat those little fences as immovable walls.

The boundaries became more important than the people.

That's why when He came to destroy all of their little fences that kept them from eating with sinners, embracing the wretched, and dwelling with the sick...they piled up all the rubble of their hard hearts, into a monument of slander.

They erected their own boundaries as they saw fit in their own eyes.

He Is the Boundary and in Him is the fulfillment of Torah.

public hermit · Jan 21, 2021

Tone said:
The boundaries became more important than the people.

Do you think the same thing is possible with the scriptures, they can become more important than the people?

Tone said:
Are to represent the many boundaries of a righteous life

Cool. I did not know that.

Tone · Jan 21, 2021

public hermit said:
Do you think the same thing is possible with the scriptures, they can become more important than the people?

Certainly, that's why we have this verse:

Titus 3
"8This saying is trustworthy. And I want you to emphasize these things, so that those who have believed God will take care to devote themselves to good deeds. These things are excellent and profitable for the people. 9But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, arguments, and quarrels about the law, because these things are pointless and worthless."

That "law" there is:

3544 nomikós (from 3551 /nómos, "law") – properly, an expert in Jewish law (theology); an ancient Jewish-attorney ("Scripture-lawyer"), specializing in interpreting the OT and applying the teachings of established rabbis.

This is exactly what Rabbinic Judaism (Pharisees) were up to. Erecting their own boundaries (theology and customs) instead of actually doing what His Law (Torah) said.

And they used Scripture to justify it, but it was eisegetical.

We have this today when we have Christians synthesizing the philosophy and psychology of the day with the Bible...creating their own liturgies and erecting their edifices.

Tone · Jan 21, 2021

public hermit said:
Do you think the same thing is possible with the scriptures, they can become more important than the people?

To be even clearer.

I think people's improper use of them can become more important than other people, which should not be.

If we are using them as we're supposed to, I believe that they are more important than any one individual, in the same way that it is more important for me to have oxygen than to help my choking neighbor.

mlepfitjw · Jan 21, 2021

public hermit said:
Do you think the same thing is possible with the scriptures, they can become more important than the people?

This question reminds me of this episode of this Twilight Zone episode, He hated all people, and at 4 oclock was going to turn all the evil people into turn into very small people. At the end of the episode he got; got.

Loved twilight zone, they always had some type of deep message behind them.

2PhiloVoid · Jan 21, 2021

public hermit said:
Do you think the same thing is possible with the scriptures, they can become more important than the people?

... I know that over the years I've encountered instances in church where this seems to have been the case. It's kind of ugly when that happens.

2PhiloVoid · Jan 22, 2021

Albion said:
... So could the churches as we know any of them today survive without the Bible? Hard to say, but the disciples would probably break down into two basic groups: those committed to doing whatever the church of history was thought to have done OR ELSE a very loose kind of Christianity based on nothing more than a religious kind of "hero worship," in which Jesus would be known through innumerable legends telling and retelling his supposed exploits.

Are there any groups today whom you think already have this latter, "loose" kind of Christianity? I'm just asking so we can get a better idea of the apples and oranges you're comparing in relation to our hypothetical purposes here.

Albion · Jan 22, 2021

What makes you think I'm comparing apples and oranges? What I suggested was that if the Bible were suddenly unknown to Christians, two trends would come from it.

One is that, absent the Bible and how it has traditionally been seen by Christians (infallible, divine revelation), the beliefs and practices of historic Christianity would be copied and continued by some Bible-less Christians. That would be just about all they could go by.

The Other is that, absent the word of God, some Christians would go the other way and simply advocate a very general moral system of kindness, peacefulness, etc., all done in the name of Jesus.

As for your follow-up question, yes, there are some groups today that are somewhat like the latter. There are followers of various "Ethical" movements (although I have only read about them), and then too, some of the less spiritually-minded Unitarian Universalists could probably be said to be like that.

We're taking on a very hypothetical proposition, so all answers are going to be guesses.

bekkilyn · Jan 22, 2021

Or there could also be an even stronger trend that is typically ignored by many Christians today, and that is the direct and obvious participation of God in the world and within his people. God did not just vanish away into obscurity, leaving behind only a few written documents and/or a rigidly structured religious organization as God's replacement. The voice of God isn't just a metaphor, but a reality that exists in the here and now regardless of how often we attempt to squelch it in ourselves and others. The foundation of our faith isn't the church and it isn't the bible....it's the very real presence of God.

Tone · Jan 22, 2021

bekkilyn said:
isn't the church and it isn't the bible....it's the very real presence of God.

I think I get what you are getting at here, which would be His Spirit.

But, at the same time, I don't see the dichotomy between those elements presented in your statement above.

bekkilyn · Jan 22, 2021

Tone said:
I think I get what you are getting at here, which would be His Spirit.

But, at the same time, I don't see the dichotomy between those elements presented in your statement above.

The church as an institution as well as the bible are tools or perhaps we might say "means of grace" that help us in our salvation journey, and while we may miss them if they were gone, they aren't the foundation of our faith and our faith would not crumble or be destroyed without them. Perhaps the journey would be more difficult without them, but as long as God exists, the faith exists. Just perhaps not in the same forms or fashion as we are currently used to.

There is a scriptural parallel here. Look how important the Temple was to the ancient Israelites/the Jewish people throughout much of scripture. They had gotten very dependent on the Temple. The Temple was where God's presence resided.

Then the Temple was destroyed. Was God also gone? Had God abandoned them? They really, really struggled with those questions, and I believe it's what Christians would struggle with if the church institution and/or the bible was gone and hence the fear that the faith could not exist without "the bible", "the Church" etc.

But just like with the Israelites, God does not abandon us just because some external thing is no more.

Tone · Jan 22, 2021

bekkilyn said:
The Temple was where God's presence resided.

Yes, the people. When I speak of Church (which I only do so Christians understand me) I am speaking of the people.

To speak of His Presence means that there has to be a locus.

bekkilyn said:
Then the Temple was destroyed. Was God also gone? Had God abandoned them?

No, because they were still there.

bekkilyn said:
But just like with the Israelites, God does not abandon us just because some external thing is no more.

We, who believe are the Israelites.

The Word is in us and we are in the Word...abiding.

Could the Church survive without the scriptures?

Could the Christian Faith persist without the scriptures?

Yes

No

Other

May you be blessed!

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