Could physics experiments rip space time?

[webboffin]

I am not an expert in this but with newer and more powerful particle accelerators being designed for atoms and other particles to be smashed to discover more fundimental components and trying to recreate conditions only that should of been known during the big bang - is it possible that some time in the unknown future we may accidently create a singularity/black hole in the lab or cause a tear in the space time dimension with experimenting around with such physics?
Are physists aware of how far they can go without danger?

 

[lucaspa]

Today at 07:17 AM webboffin said this in Post #1

I am not an expert in this but with newer and more powerful particle accelerators being designed for atoms and other particles to be smashed to discover more fundimental components and trying to recreate conditions only that should of been known during the big bang - is it possible that some time in the unknown future we may accidently create a singularity/black hole in the lab or cause a tear in the space time dimension with experimenting around with such physics?
Are physists aware of how far they can go without danger?

This was brought up when Brookhaven planned an experiment a couple of years ago.  It's fear-mongering.  The experiment was carried out and everything was fine.

 

[Holyjoe]

I think he's saying as technology and understanding advance, is it possible that this could happen, in the future.

Other dangerous experiments may have taken place and have been fine, but as we continue experimenting in the greater unknown world of physics it is highly likely that things can and do sometimes go wrong.

 

[webboffin]

Today at 01:50 PM Holyjoe said this in Post #3

I think he's saying as technology and understanding advance, is it possible that this could happen, in the future.

Other dangerous experiments may have taken place and have been fine, but as we continue experimenting in the greater unknown world of physics it is highly likely that things can and do sometimes go wrong.

Yes, I mean does physists draw the line or understand the exactly the implications of what they are doing?

 

[lucaspa]

Today at 09:33 AM webboffin said this in Post #4
Yes, I mean does physists draw the line or understand the exactly the implications of what they are doing?

Do any of us understand all the implications of what actions we choose? Remember the Law of Unintended Consequences.

The answer is that life is risky.  Our technological society has tended to obscure that and given us all a false sense of security. We feel that spaceflight should always be successful and no one should die in it even tho 50,000 people die each year in automobile accidents on the roads of the US alone.

For 50 years we had politicians with access to nuclear weapons.  One miscalculation on their part and civilization could have been wiped out in nuclear war -- perhaps the whole species.

So, there is a small risk that someday, sometime, some high energy physics experiment could make a black hole. I don't see how, since the amount of matter available and the ability to compress it into a small enough space is requires energy many thousand of orders of magnitude than we can generate on the entire planet.

I don't think spacetime can be ripped. It's a fun science fiction plotline and makes some great stories, but I haven't seen any theoretical ideas about how that could be done.

I have far more realistic risks in my life to lose any sleep over this one -- like getting hit by lightning.

 

[Melchior]

Today at 02:33 PM webboffin said this in Post #4

Yes, I mean does physists draw the line or understand the exactly the implications of what they are doing?

You will never find a bunch of people more concerned about the effects of what they do for a living then scientists. As for the effects of particle accelerators, don't worry, we have yet even got close to the energy levels of particles that hit the earth every second from the out reaches of the universe. Chain-building blackholes are a fantasy, the mathmatics for it have been done conclusively.

My only fear is that we develop a supercolider that can work with masive amounts of mater at a single time. The theoretically we could create enough anti-mater to make a much more efficent bomb (about 10 times more efficient then a hydrogen bomb. Thankfully there are still some technology hurtles that still need to be overcome before that can even be contemplated.

 

[Quath]

There is no need to make bigger bombs since our nuclear bombs will do quite nicely. It is better (in terms of damage) to do several smaller nuclear bombs than one big bomb. There are designs for 100 Megaton nuclear bombs (Ref: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/CWIHP/BULLETINS/b4a13.htm) but these are not efficient in terms of damage per fuel. (It is a surface area versus volume relationship.) The bombs dropped in WWII were around 20 kilotons by comparison. (Ref: http://www.infoplease.com/spot/hiroshima1.html)

Much more dangerous technology is developed by biologists and chemists than by physicists.

Scott (Quath)

 

[webboffin]

Well, I have got half the answers to my questions.

Lucaspa, I was not interested whether it is safer to fly in a plane or take the car or that kind of risk assessment. Nuclear war is not even on my mind or the politics about it. But I took in your mentioning of the rest of what you said. Though we don't understand all of space/time to make a sure assessment.

I want to know about smashing particles and creating other exotic particles and increasing energies being used to do so.
Could in tens of years time physists cause a dimentional collapse of space time even if localised. What are the known and unknown about it?
Does physics know the math of producing such phenomina or can safely discard it for years to come?

 

[gentu]

The energy that it would take to cause such a singularity, webboffin, is probably more than we have on Earth. That's not to say that we can't blow our planet up several times over, as that is already possible with nuclear weapons. I'm talking about enough energy that would destroy our solar system or at least cause a similarly big problem.

If, sometime in the distant future (likely beyond all of our lifetimes) the energy needed could be harnessed, calculations would have been done to account for disastrous possibilities. Some physicists were worried about causing the problems that you mention when the first particle accelerators were being built, but after doing the math, they discovered that the energy harnessed in the largest particle accelerators is much less than the energy of a single cosmic ray routinely striking the Earth's atmosphere.

So, yes, there are people worried enough about this sort of thing to take it into account.

 

[Osiris]

I doubt that phycisists can mistakenly create a black hole like the one in our solar system, or that it could create one big enough to comsume the whole solar system or planet for that matter.

We are too small to create something like that unless we made a machine as big as the planet

 

[webboffin]

If I am not mistaken a black hole does not have to be big in size.
Mini black hole theoretically exists that could be smaller than atoms. A black hole is made by compressing matter to a desired Schwarzschild radii.

Hang on I have some websites you can browse on, though I am not saying all these are lab productive.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/space/deepspace/blackholes/index.shtml
http://itss.raytheon.com/cafe/qadir/q944.html
http://www.las.iastate.edu/research/Kennrich.shtml

and a rather unorthodox suggestion of mini blackhole existance:
http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf084/sf084g09.htm

and a Q/A site on black holes:
http://astsun.astro.virginia.edu/~jh8h/Foundations/quest9.html

 

[webboffin]

Today at 09:33 PM Osiris said this in Post #10

I doubt that phycisists can mistakenly create a black hole like the one in our solar system, or that it could create one big enough to comsume the whole solar system or planet for that matter.

We are too small to create something like that unless we made a machine as big as the planet

I don't think our solar system has a black hole so I presume you mean galaxy.

 

[Yinlowang]

Today at 05:55 PM gentu said this in Post #9

The energy that it would take to cause such a singularity, webboffin, is probably more than we have on Earth. That's not to say that we can't blow our planet up several times over, as that is already possible with nuclear weapons. I'm talking about enough energy that would destroy our solar system or at least cause a similarly big problem.

Large Hadron Collider
http://lhc-new-homepage.web.cern.ch/lhc-new-homepage/

I believe one of the outcomes expected from the LHC is Producing alot of mini black holes.

Yup here is a small story about it.

http://unisci.com/stories/20014/1001012.htm

Edited bacause I cannot spell

 

[Osiris]

Today at 06:01 PM webboffin said this in Post #12




I don't think our solar system has a black hole so I presume you mean galaxy.

errr, yeah, sorry about that, our milky way galaxy's black black hole.

 

[DNAunion]

Lucaspa: I don't think spacetime can be ripped. It's a fun science fiction plotline and makes some great stories, but I haven't seen any theoretical ideas about how that could be done.

DNAunion: I could be wrong, but I seem to remember reading about the ripping of spacetime in "The Elegant Universe".

 

[DNAunion]

DNAunion: Did a quick Google search and found this right off the bat.

"Superstring theory resolves the most enigmatic problem of twentieth century theoretical physics: the mathematical incompatibility of the foundational pillars of quantum mechanics and the General Theory of Relativity. In doing so, string theory modifies our understanding of spacetime and the gravitational force. One recently discovered consequence of this modification is that spacetime can undergo remarkable rearrangements of its basic structure requiring the fabric of spacetime to tear apart and subsequently reconnect. Such processes are at best unlikely and probably impossible in pre-string theories as they would be accompanied by violent physical effects. In string theory, on the contrary, these processes are physically sensible and thoroughly common." (http://www.lassp.cornell.edu/GraduateAdmissions/greene/greene.html)

 

[webboffin]

Yesterday at 11:52 PM Osiris said this in Post #14




errr, yeah, sorry about that, our milky way galaxy's black black hole.

  glad we have it sorted




 

 

[webboffin]

If space-time can be ripped or mini black holes formed in the future I hope we have some understanding on dangers, don't want the Earth vapourised or something.

 

[MartinM]

Today at 07:20 PM webboffin said this in Post #18

If space-time can be ripped or mini black holes formed in the future I hope we have some understanding on dangers, don't want the Earth vapourised or something.

Mini black holes would be no danger, since they'd evapourate in a fraction of a second.

 

[Joe_Sixpack]

"DNAunion: I could be wrong, but I seem to remember reading about the ripping of spacetime in "The Elegant Universe"."

Witten's "Spacetime Fwap" is an interesting conclusion of String Theory that shows that it may be possible to rip spacetime at the string level and have it immediately refill. It is a conclusion drawn from the geometries of String Theory and it is still at the early hypothesis stage (String Theory itself is a misnomer). Best conclusion we can get to is that ripping spacetime MAY be possible (there are actually several other hypotheses about how it could be done that do not rely on String Theory).