Could Peter have done otherwise?

[Derf]

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
— Matthew 28:18

Good! All authority. But not meticulous control over ever thought and action of every person, right? So, if Jesus has all authority, then when someone acts against Jesus' will, is Jesus really wanting him to act that way? Or is he rebellious and needing to be judged? That second option fits the sovereignty that King James had.

 

[Derf]

God is outside time.

God essence is to exist, "I am Who am", eternally. For beings in eternity, all moments of time, past and future, are present.

Please provide a scripture reference for this concept. "I am Who am" is not the same as "all moments of time, past and future, are present." I can't find anything like that in the bible.

God's acts are best described in the present participle. Even now in eternity, God is doing, not has one or will do.

So you are saying that the inspired word of God is not really what God means, and that you are able to describe what God means better than the bible is? I don't mean this as an insult, but it is what it seem you are actually saying. And I commend you on being able to express such a complex thought, by the way. I just can't get over the fact that you are able to express it in terms that I understood, but God wasn't able to express it that clearly.

In eternity, Jesus knows that Peter is denying Him.

Jesus wasn't "in eternity". He was there right next to Peter.

 

[Derf]

We cannot "proof" time is relative, but since Einstein's "Theory of Relativity", now over 100 years old was introduced, no one has shown it to be wrong and every experiment has supported it.
It is extremely difficult for people trapped in time to image being outside of time. Some people hypothesized the idea earlier, but the theory is very resent just 100 years old.
Why do you say God cannot move in and out of our time and thus interact with man?
I am not saying God does not have His own sequencing of events, but He knows our end from the beginning.
Try to explain God being omnipresent on our world and throughout the universe? That requires information traveling at a speed greater than the speed of light, so how scientifically could that happen?
We can know God is omnipresent but cannot explain how.

How do you know God is omnipresent?? And since you cannot explain "how", can you say anything about how that omnipresence allows other things? I just get the feeling you are saying "God is so far beyond our understanding that we can't understand Him", but then you tell me how I should understand God in words that even God doesn't use (like "omnipresence").

If information is traveling faster than the speed of light, is it also traveling fast than time itself?
In our time frame we can imagine God existing at the end of our time historically knowing all free will choices throughout time, so one of the ways God at the beginning of time can know all free will choices throughout time would be to know what God at the end of time knows historically, which with time being relative would not seem to be a problem.
As far as God not telling us how He knows the future is not unique, since we do not know how any miracle is done, we only know the results. If God tried to explain the relativity of time 3000 years ago we would have scientific "proof" (knowledge) for the existence of the Bible God and not need faith to believe in the existence of the Christian God. Knowledge puffs a person up, makes them even more self-dependent, when what they need is faith.

But God tells us information about the future that is contradictory sometimes. Like when He told Nineveh, through Jonah, that they were all going to be destroyed in 40 days, but then they weren't destroyed. Or when He told Hezekiah that he would die, but then He told him he would not die, but live another 15 years.

My point is that God interacts with His creatures in time, and tells them things that might happen, depending on how they behave. I can't see how Peter was any different. Jesus told him something he would do in the future, and he did it, but it wasn't because Jesus saw it in a crystal ball or like movie that couldn't be changed. Peter, perhaps, could have repented in sackcloth and ashed, like the king of Nineveh, or wept bitterly and cried out to the Lord, like Hezekiah did, and perhaps he wouldn't have denied Jesus. Peter might even have become so distraught over the prophecy that he committed suicide, preventing him from denying Christ, but sinning in a way that he couldn't even repent from.

 

[Hammster]

No I didn’t say that either, it was Pharaoh’s free will that caused God to make an example of him. It was because Pharaoh wouldn’t allow the Israelites to believe that God decided to harden his heart and make an example of him.

Yeah, that’s okay except for this part.

The LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
— Exodus 4:21

The cause (hardened heart) and the effect (not letting people go).

This tells us why Pharaoh wouldn’t let them go.

 

[Hammster]

Good! All authority. But not meticulous control over ever thought and action of every person, right?

Wrong.

So, if Jesus has all authority, then when someone acts against Jesus' will, is Jesus really wanting him to act that way?

Yes. The potter uses the same lump of clay for two purposes.

Or is he rebellious and needing to be judged? That second option fits the sovereignty that King James had.

I don’t understand your last question.

 

[Derf]

Wrong.

Ok, then you think God exercises meticulous control over everything that happens. Let's look at some examples.
1. If a person is thinking of doing something evil, do you think God is controlling that person's mind in order to make sure he does the evil?
2. In my Hezekiah example, do you think God exercised meticulous control of Hezekiah in order to make sure that he prayed to God after receiving his prophecy of impending death?
3. When the Edomites rejoiced over the fall of Judah and took some of the spoils for themselves, something God condemned them for doing in the book of Obadiah, was God meticulously controlling the Edomites to make sure that they rejoiced and despoiled?

Yes. The potter uses the same lump of clay for two purposes.

But who marred the clay in God's hands? Was it the lump, or was it the potter? If the lump, then God wsn't meticulously controlling the clay. If the potter, then God sometimes makes mistakes. Which are you suggesting is the case?

I don’t understand your last question.

If someone is "rebellious", then he is doing something the authority (God or King James, depending on which sovereign you are talking about) doesn't want him to do. But if God is in meticulous control, then it is impossible to do something that God doesn't want you to, and therefore "rebellion" is the same as "doing God's will". Which are you saying is true, that people are sometimes rebellious (going against God's will) or are people always righteous (defined as obeying God's will)?

 

[o_mlly]

Please provide a scripture reference for this concept. "I am Who am" ..

What else could, "I am Who am" (present tense) mean?

Or, John 8:58:
Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM.”

So you are saying that the inspired word of God is not really what God means ...

No.

I don't mean this as an insult, but it is what it seem you are actually saying.

See above. The meaning is biblical.

Jesus wasn't "in eternity". He was there right next to Peter.

Do you not believe that Jesus was fully man and fully God?

 

[Hammster]

Ok, then you think God exercises meticulous control over everything that happens. Let's look at some examples.

I’m breaking this post up.

1. If a person is thinking of doing something evil, do you think God is controlling that person's mind in order to make sure he does the evil?

No.

2. In my Hezekiah example, do you think God exercised meticulous control of Hezekiah in order to make sure that he prayed to God after receiving his prophecy of impending death?

No.

3. When the Edomites rejoiced over the fall of Judah and took some of the spoils for themselves, something God condemned them for doing in the book of Obadiah, was God meticulously controlling the Edomites to make sure that they rejoiced and despoiled?

No.

 

[Hammster]

But who marred the clay in God's hands? Was it the lump, or was it the potter? If the lump, then God wsn't meticulously controlling the clay. If the potter, then God sometimes makes mistakes. Which are you suggesting is the case?

Paul answers this.

Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
— Romans 9:21-23

 

[Hammster]

If someone is "rebellious", then he is doing something the authority (God or King James, depending on which sovereign you are talking about) doesn't want him to do. But if God is in meticulous control, then it is impossible to do something that God doesn't want you to, and therefore "rebellion" is the same as "doing God's will". Which are you saying is true, that people are sometimes rebellious (going against God's will) or are people always righteous (defined as obeying God's will)?

People are rebellious by nature.

 

[Derf]

What else could, "I am Who am" (present tense) mean?

What about "I am the one who did not come from someone or something else."

Or, John 8:58:
Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM.”

Jesus was definitely identifying Himself with God, who existed before Abraham, the one who was and is and is to come.

No.

See above. The meaning is biblical.

Do you not believe that Jesus was fully man and fully God?

Jesus, being fully God, did not know the time of His coming. If He was fully God and did not know something, then either He wasn't omniscient, or the time of His coming hadn't been decided yet. To say that Jesus is fully God and fully man, that God knows all things that will occur in the future, but that Jesus didn't know something that had been determined before the world was created, which I assume you believe about His coming, is contradictory.

I'll let you explain it.

 

[Derf]

I’m breaking this post up.

Ok, but the questions are different permutations of the same question.

No.

No.

No.

So God does NOT maintain meticulous control over everything?

Paul answers this.

Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
— Romans 9:21-23

That's not an answer to my question. Did the potter mar the clay, or did the clay mar the clay?

People are rebellious by nature.

Which God meticulously controls, right? God controls whether they are rebellious? So if God is the one that makes them rebellious (by nature or otherwise), then God is meticulously controlling, them, right? And they are doing His will by being "rebellious". You are avoiding answering these last questions, but the first "No's" tell me that you do not think God is sovereign in the way that many Christians mean it, but rather in the way the Pilgrims meant it. Which I agree with.

 

[Hammster]

So God does NOT maintain meticulous control over everything?

He maintains control over all that happens.

 

[Hammster]

That's not an answer to my question. Did the potter mar the clay, or did the clay mar the clay?

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

 

[Hammster]

Which God meticulously controls, right? God controls whether they are rebellious?

They are rebellious by nature. I thought that was clear.

So if God is the one that makes them rebellious (by nature or otherwise), then God is meticulously controlling, them, right?

They are rebellious by nature.

And they are doing His will by being "rebellious". You are avoiding answering these last questions, but the first "No's" tell me that you do not think God is sovereign in the way that many Christians mean it, but rather in the way the Pilgrims meant it. Which I agree with.

I mean that everything that happens is completely under God’s control.

 

[o_mlly]

What about "I am the one who did not come from someone or something else."

The phrase would identify "I" as an uncreated being. If Jesus said so (need citation) then the sentence would affirm "I am ..." as consistent with the other verses I cited.

Jesus was definitely identifying Himself with God, who existed before Abraham, the one who was and is and is to come.

? A being that in very moment "was", and "is", and "is to come" exists in eternity.

God is one in being, two in nature, and three in persons. As He is one in being, Jesus and the Father are one and use the self-referential verb "Am" as applying to their mode of being. "Am" as the present tense of the verb "be".

Jesus, being fully God, did not know the time of His coming.

? I assume that w/o a citation you mean His 2nd coming as reported in Mat 24:36.

If this is your reference, then "Not even the Son ..." begs the question, "Son of whom?" Jesus as "Son of Man", as He referred to Himself, did not know.

If He was fully God and did not know something, then either He wasn't omniscient, or the time of His coming hadn't been decided yet.

"Although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men” (Phil 2:6-7).​

In his commentary on this verse, Matthew Poole writes, "Nay, I myself, as man, know it not. Nor is it more absurd, or derogating from the perfection of Christ, than for to say, that Christ, as man, was not omnipotent, or omniscient."

I'll leave it to you to explain the mystery that is the nature of God.

 

[bling]

But God tells us information about the future that is contradictory sometimes. Like when He told Nineveh, through Jonah, that they were all going to be destroyed in 40 days, but then they weren't destroyed. Or when He told Hezekiah that he would die, but then He told him he would not die, but live another 15 years.

Like all God’s miracles we do not know how He does them, but we do know the results:

Acts 17:27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.

Ro. 8: 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

Psalm 139:7-10. "Where shall I go from your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence? If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in ...

Jeremiah 23:24 – God Fills Heaven and Earth. “Who can hide in secret places so that I cannot see them?” declares the LORD. “Do not I fill heaven and earth ...

Hebrews 4:13 – Everything is Uncovered and Laid Bare. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the ...

Do these and other verses leave you with the idea God is omnipresent?

My point is that God interacts with His creatures in time, and tells them things that might happen, depending on how they behave. I can't see how Peter was any different. Jesus told him something he would do in the future, and he did it, but it wasn't because Jesus saw it in a crystal ball or like movie that couldn't be changed. Peter, perhaps, could have repented in sackcloth and ashed, like the king of Nineveh, or wept bitterly and cried out to the Lord, like Hezekiah did, and perhaps he wouldn't have denied Jesus. Peter might even have become so distraught over the prophecy that he committed suicide, preventing him from denying Christ, but sinning in a way that he couldn't even repent from.

Jonah going to Nineveh and Hezekiah living 15 more years is actually supporting “Proof” for God knowing the future perfectly, but this takes some explaining and logical thinking:

There is a truism concerning God which Jerimiah states in Jer. 18: 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.

So, what is this saying?

If God says: “I will destroy this nation in 40 days…” that must be understood as being contingent on the nation remaining the same or getting worse. So why does God not state His future actions as being contingent and say: “If you do not change I will destroy you in forty days”? God saying “if” carries the meaning, “God does not know, yet He does know”, so He cannot say “if”. He should say: “When”, so it would sound like this: “When you repent in the next 40 days, I will not destroy you”, but that is totally not a threat to them and they will have no reason to change. If the people of Ninevah have been taught by previous prophets this truism about God and maybe even the specifics of what Jonah is bringing as a warning, than they will take Jonah’s prophecy as a warning. We just do not know what the people of Ninevah were thinking just prior to Jonah.

 

[CoreyD]

“All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13‬:‭8‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1‬:‭4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Are you able to read this?

 

[Derf]

Like all God’s miracles we do not know how He does them, but we do know the results:

Acts 17:27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.

Ro. 8: 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

Psalm 139:7-10. "Where shall I go from your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence? If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in ...

Jeremiah 23:24 – God Fills Heaven and Earth. “Who can hide in secret places so that I cannot see them?” declares the LORD. “Do not I fill heaven and earth ...

Hebrews 4:13 – Everything is Uncovered and Laid Bare. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the ...

Do these and other verses leave you with the idea God is omnipresent?

No, not really. At least not in the way you are suggesting. Is God in my sugar canister on my shelf? Can He both fill Heaven and Earth and still not be in my refrigerator or my shampoo bottle? Of course.

Jonah going to Nineveh and Hezekiah living 15 more years is actually supporting “Proof” for God knowing the future perfectly, but this takes some explaining and logical thinking:

There is a truism concerning God which Jerimiah states in Jer. 18: 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.

So, what is this saying?

It says that God doesn't always know which way a nation will go.

If God says: “I will destroy this nation in 40 days…” that must be understood as being contingent on the nation remaining the same or getting worse. So why does God not state His future actions as being contingent and say: “If you do not change I will destroy you in forty days”? God saying “if” carries the meaning, “God does not know, yet He does know”, so He cannot say “if”. He should say: “When”, so it would sound like this: “When you repent in the next 40 days, I will not destroy you”, but that is totally not a threat to them and they will have no reason to change. If the people of Ninevah have been taught by previous prophets this truism about God and maybe even the specifics of what Jonah is bringing as a warning, than they will take Jonah’s prophecy as a warning. We just do not know what the people of Ninevah were thinking just prior to Jonah.

I agree. But the truth of the conditional depends not on something known before Nineveh existed, but only known after the prophecy was given and after the people repented. If the truth was that God knew they would repent, then God spoke to them a lie about the future. Conditionals only make sense if the people could do either of the two things, repent or not repent.

It goes back to when the events were settled enough for God to know the outcome. If before the world existed, then the result was settled without any input from the inhabitants of Nineveh, since they didn't exist yet.

 

[bling]

No, not really. At least not in the way you are suggesting. Is God in my sugar canister on my shelf? Can He both fill Heaven and Earth and still not be in my refrigerator or my shampoo bottle? Of course.

You are assuming a definition of Omnipresent to include God literally being in your sugar canister, but that does not need to be the definition of "omnipresent", we have to allow God to define what we call "omnipresent" and use His definition for: Jeremiah 23:24 – God Fills Heaven and Earth. “Who can hide in secret places so that I cannot see them?” declares the LORD. “Do not I fill heaven and earth .... All I am saying is the same way God is this omnipresent is the way God is omnipresent throughout time, both being impossible to scientifically reconcile.

It says that God doesn't always know which way a nation will go.

Not at all! Read Jerimiah 18 again. If God did not "know" the future of the nation, He would have to state it being contingent "if" you do not repent I will destroy you. The fact that God does know requires a none human definition of God's future actions, stating He will when He might not, so we are to take what God says "He will do some bad" as a warning, and ultimatum to repent or be destroyed.

I agree. But the truth of the conditional depends not on something known before Nineveh existed, but only known after the prophecy was given and after the people repented. If the truth was that God knew they would repent, then God spoke to them a lie about the future. Conditionals only make sense if the people could do either of the two things, repent or not repent.

Nineveh did not know at the time, but God did know at the time what He would do (let them go). Nineveh took God's prophecy of their future as a warning and repented (that is what Jerimiah tell us to do with a prophecy from God, even if it is stated as a firm prophecy).
If I give you my prediction of the future you know to just take it as a warning since I do not know the future, but God does know our future so for Him to speak of His actions in the future we have to invoke Jer. 18 to make it a warning. (God is not lying).

It goes back to when the events were settled enough for God to know the outcome. If before the world existed, then the result was settled without any input from the inhabitants of Nineveh, since they didn't exist yet.

God knew from the beginning of time what Nineveh would do, so how can He warn them, without invoking Jer. 18 or suggest He does not know?