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What did He foresee?If Jesus told Peter that he is going to do something that means that He has already foreseen the outcome and that even His telling Peter what he was going to do wasn’t going to change that outcome. I’m not saying that Peter didn’t have a choice, I’m saying that Jesus knew what his choice would be.
God is outside time.I agree that God can't both be inside of time and outside of time.
Absolutely everything.What did He foresee?
Let's say HE did intervene in the future event. Would Jesus not also know this? And what would that do? First, there would be no story about it, because Jesus wouldn't have told Peter HE would do something, if God stopped him from doing it. And how would Peter know that God intervened if he wasn't told about it in the first place? And would God the Father intervene and change Peter's choice without Jesus knowing it? Imagine if the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crowed 3 times and Peter realized he didn't deny the Christ as Jesus had told him. Could Jesus then have lied to him? So even if God intervened, it would have been known to Him from the foundation of the world, and it would then be part of the future, and Jesus would have known that Peter didn't deny the Christ 3 times and the story would not have been written.Could He have intervened?
What He could’ve done is irrelevant. He could’ve done anything He wanted, none of that makes any difference, what does make a difference is what He did do. The fact that we are held responsible for our actions automatically indicates that we must have a choice otherwise God’s judgment upon us would be unjust if we had no other alternative.Could He have intervened?
If God had intervened and caused Peter to deny Christ and Peter had no alternative but to do what God had forced him to do then Peter could not be held responsible for his actions.Let's say HE did intervene in the future event. Would Jesus not also know this? And what would that do? First, there would be no story about it, because Jesus wouldn't have told Peter HE would do something, if God stopped him from doing it. And how would Peter know that God intervened if he wasn't told about it in the first place? And would God the Father intervene and change Peter's choice without Jesus knowing it? Imagine if the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crowed 3 times and Peter realized he didn't deny the Christ as Jesus had told him. Could Jesus then have lied to him? So even if God intervened, it would have been known to Him from the foundation of the world, and it would then be part of the future, and Jesus would have known that Peter didn't deny the Christ 3 times and the story would not have been written.
So perhaps God could change the future HE already sees, but why would HE? And what of the consequences? And even if HE does intervene, would HE not know this from the foundation of the world? And the Prophesies we have written in the Holy Scriptures would then still come to pass, Yes?
For all we know, if this is true, Peter could have stood his ground and the Pharisees murdered him for it. So God intervened to save his life by having him deny the Christ 3 times.
Such speculation is a vanity in my view, the view of an absolute nobody, so who cares, Right? Nevertheless, I'm OK with believing God See's the end from the beginning and HE knew Peter's choices from the foundation of the world because in His Realm, Peter already made them. So for me it's not a stretch at all that God "Declared" to Peter what he would do in the future.
We cannot "proof" time is relative, but since Einstein's "Theory of Relativity", now over 100 years old was introduced, no one has shown it to be wrong and every experiment has supported it.But if God is "outside of time", then He can't interact with people, or even the other members of the godhead. Interactions require some kind of time passage, though not necessarily the same as our time.
Plus, there are no scriptures that back up the "outside of time" model. God is orderly, which means He does things at the proper time and in the proper sequence. Time passage and sequence are impossible for someone who is "outside of time". Plus, He can't know what time it is here for you right now.
Did He foresee Himself foreseeing Peter denying Him? Did He foresee Him telling Peter he would deny Him? Or did He just foresee Peter denying Him?Absolutely everything.
That really has nothing to do with the discussion bling and I were having.Let's say HE did intervene in the future event. Would Jesus not also know this? And what would that do? First, there would be no story about it, because Jesus wouldn't have told Peter HE would do something, if God stopped him from doing it. And how would Peter know that God intervened if he wasn't told about it in the first place? And would God the Father intervene and change Peter's choice without Jesus knowing it? Imagine if the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crowed 3 times and Peter realized he didn't deny the Christ as Jesus had told him. Could Jesus then have lied to him? So even if God intervened, it would have been known to Him from the foundation of the world, and it would then be part of the future, and Jesus would have known that Peter didn't deny the Christ 3 times and the story would not have been written.
So perhaps God could change the future HE already sees, but why would HE? And what of the consequences? And even if HE does intervene, would HE not know this from the foundation of the world? And the Prophesies we have written in the Holy Scriptures would then still come to pass, Yes?
For all we know, if this is true, Peter could have stood his ground and the Pharisees murdered him for it. So God intervened to save his life by having him deny the Christ 3 times.
Such speculation is a vanity in my view, the view of an absolute nobody, so who cares, Right? Nevertheless, I'm OK with believing God See's the end from the beginning and HE knew Peter's choices from the foundation of the world because in His Realm, Peter already made them. So for me it's not a stretch at all that God "Declared" to Peter what he would do in the future.
Are you saying that God is merely a spectator?What He could’ve done is irrelevant. He could’ve done anything He wanted, none of that makes any difference, what does make a difference is what He did do. The fact that we are held responsible for our actions automatically indicates that we must have a choice otherwise God’s judgment upon us would be unjust if we had no other alternative.
This is just one sin Peter did at the time, he did sins before and after Jesus told him what he would do, just keeping Peter from doing this one sin is not repentance and Peter already needed to repent of a lot of sins, so Jesus is help Peter along with all of us to repent.If God had intervened and caused Peter to deny Christ and Peter had no alternative but to do what God had forced him to do then Peter could not be held responsible for his actions.
ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING.Did He foresee Himself foreseeing Peter denying Him? Did He foresee Him telling Peter he would deny Him? Or did He just foresee Peter denying Him?
No, He has intervened in a person’s free will before. Pharaoh is one example where God knew that Pharaoh would not allow the Israelites to leave so He decided to make an example of him.Are you saying that God is merely a spectator?
Did He tell Peter that he would deny Him because He foresaw it?ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING.
So our wills aren’t free.No, He has intervened in a person’s free will before. Pharaoh is one example where God knew that Pharaoh would not allow the Israelites to leave so He decided to make an example of him.
“But I know that the king of Egypt will not permit you to go, except under compulsion. So I will stretch out My hand and strike Egypt with all My miracles which I shall do in the midst of it; and after that he will let you go.”
Exodus 3:19-20 NASB1995
We cannot "proof" time is relative, but since Einstein's "Theory of Relativity", now over 100 years old was introduced, no one has shown it to be wrong and every experiment has supported it.
It is extremely difficult for people trapped in time to image being outside of time. Some people hypothesized the idea earlier, but the theory is very resent just 100 years old.
Why do you say God cannot move in and out of our time and thus interact with man?
I am not saying God does not have His own sequencing of events, but He knows our end from the beginning.
Try to explain God being omnipresent on our world and throughout the universe? That requires information traveling at a speed greater than the speed of light, so how scientifically could that happen?
We can know God is omnipresent but cannot explain how.
If information is traveling faster than the speed of light, is it also traveling fast than time itself?
In our time frame we can imagine God existing at the end of our time historically knowing all free will choices throughout time, so one of the ways God at the beginning of time can know all free will choices throughout time would be to know what God at the end of time knows historically, which with time being relative would not seem to be a problem.
As far as God not telling us how He knows the future is not unique, since we do not know how any miracle is done, we only know the results. If God tried to explain the relativity of time 3000 years ago we would have scientific "proof" (knowledge) for the existence of the Bible God and not need faith to believe in the existence of the Christian God. Knowledge puffs a person up, makes them even more self-dependent, when what they need is faith.
No He didn’t say that at all.Did He tell Peter that he would deny Him because He foresaw it?
I’m just trying to figure out your understanding.No He didn’t say that at all.
No I didn’t say that either, it was Pharaoh’s free will that caused God to make an example of him. It was because Pharaoh wouldn’t allow the Israelites to believe that God decided to harden his heart and make an example of him.So our wills aren’t free.
So, when Isaiah told Hezekiah that God had foreseen that Hezekiah was going to die of his illness, then It didn't do Hezekiah any good and Hezekiah died from that illness, BECAUSE God had already foreseen his early death??If Jesus told Peter that he is going to do something that means that He has already foreseen the outcome and that even His telling Peter what he was going to do wasn’t going to change that outcome. I’m not saying that Peter didn’t have a choice, I’m saying that Jesus knew what his choice would be.
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