Could Peter have done otherwise?

[Hammster]

God can certainly cause whoever He wants to win the race, but God can also allow us of our own free will to determine the outcome if God wants to.

Which still puts God in control of the outcome.

 

[bling]

Which still puts God in control of the outcome.

God can allow us to control the outcome of the race.

 

[Hammster]

God can allow us to control the outcome of the race.

Which still puts God in control.

 

[Studyman]

The race had the outcome it did because that’s what God wanted to happen.

I'm a big advocate of believing what is actually written in Scriptures, therefore, because of what is written, I disagree with your religious philosophy here.

Ez. 18: 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

God wants all men to be saved. But clearly not all men will be saved. This is not because God "wants" the death of men who die as you seem to be promoting. Not because I say so, or the religious sect or businesses of this world says so, but because the God, who Inspired the Holy Scriptures, says so.

Duet. 30: 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Men are free to choose death, but clearly that isn't the choice God "Wants" men to make.

 

[Hammster]

I'm a big advocate of believing what is actually written in Scriptures, therefore, because of what is written, I disagree with your religious philosophy here.

Ez. 18: 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

God wants all men to be saved. But clearly not all men will be saved. This is not because God "wants" the death of men who die as you seem to be promoting. Not because I say so, or the religious sect or businesses of this world says so, but because the God, who Inspired the Holy Scriptures, says so.

Duet. 30: 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Men are free to choose death, but clearly that isn't the choice God "Wants" men to make.

Okay.

 

[bling]

Which still puts God in control.

If God allows us the make a free will choice, he is not personally responsible for the choice we made, we thus become accountable for the choice that was made.

 

[Hammster]

If God allows us the make a free will choice, he is not personally responsible for the choice we made, we thus become accountable for the choice that was made.

Could He have intervened?

 

[bling]

Could He have intervened?

The mental free will choice is made by the individual (which he is personally responsible for making), but God can keep the individual from fulfilling his choice.

 

[Hammster]

The mental free will choice is made by the individual (which he is personally responsible for making), but God can keep the individual from fulfilling his choice.

Is that a yes?

 

[bling]

Is that a yes?

God can "intervene" after the person makes a free will choice to keep the "action of the choice from happening, but if God is allow the human to make a free will choice, God does not intervene in the person's mental portion of the free will choice.

 

[CoreyD]

Peter answered him, “Though they all fall away because of you, I will never fall away.” Jesus said to him, “Truly, I tell you, this very night, before the rooster crows, you will deny me three times.” Peter said to him, “Even if I must die with you, I will not deny you!” And all the disciples said the same.
— Matthew 26:33-35

Could Peter have stuck to his guns and shown Jesus that He was wrong?

Good question.
In other words, could Peter undo the specified events of history in the making, as we see in time travel movies?
Since Peter was Peter, Peter could only be Peter.

To explain, there is a personal flaw I am battling to overcome.
God knows this. God even knows me better than I know myself.
So, say a situation comes up, which will challenge my ability to deal with effectively, because of failing to overcome this flaw, God can tell me exactly how I will act in the situation.
Couple that with the fact that God can, in an instant of time, see ahead to the exact time the challenge comes up, he can instantly prophesy the future event... and I cannot change it, because that's me.

Jesus saw Peter. That's Peter, with his personal flaw, which he was not winning the fight against... that is, if he realized the flaw.
However, he did not, because he was not aware that his impulsive nature was a flaw.
Repeatedly, Jesus tried to show him, but he did not see it.
So, much so, that when Jesus was in the garden, and told Peter, James, and John to keep watch, and pray, so that they don't enter into temptation, they fell asleep.

Can't blame them entirely, because they were grieved, but nonetheless, Peter failed to pray like Jesus did, in order to see his flaw, and know how to correct it.
Peter was a work in progress. So am I, and what I am saying here is actually instructions for me, and a lesson I should learn.
I really need to pray more, and do so in the manner that Jesus did.

So, in summary... Peter had no guns to stick to. Peter had talk. You know like they say, all bark and no bite.
Peter would have fired blanks, or water, or went "POW. POW" with his mouth, as he waved his fake gun.

Don't get me wrong. Peter was sincere. He just was not able to see the flaws that would get in the way of living up to his sincere intentions.

 

[Hammster]

God can "intervene" after the person makes a free will choice to keep the "action of the choice from happening, but if God is allow the human to make a free will choice, God does not intervene in the person's mental portion of the free will choice.

So…is that a yes?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Peter answered him, “Though they all fall away because of you, I will never fall away.” Jesus said to him, “Truly, I tell you, this very night, before the rooster crows, you will deny me three times.” Peter said to him, “Even if I must die with you, I will not deny you!” And all the disciples said the same.
— Matthew 26:33-35

Could Peter have stuck to his guns and shown Jesus that He was wrong?

The question of whether Peter could have remained resolute and disproved Jesus' words is a hypothetical situation that ventures into theological debate and interpretation.

Numerous pages of posts have been composed, and the debate persists. This thread exemplifies the broader spectrum of Christian theological discussions. It's a prolonged conflict between those who embrace the concept of God as the ultimate sovereign fulfilling His will, and those who believe in a God of Love who grants freedom to all His creations. The holy scriptures seem to support both perspectives in certain passages. Who among us can claim to speak for God or hold the magisterial authority to represent the Church? For contemplation, I present this excerpt from the holy scriptures.

Speaking of the wicked

For it was not impossible for your all-powerful hand, which created the world from unknown material, to send forth upon them a multitude of bears, or fierce lions, or, in anger, beasts of a new kind, massive and strange, either breathing out a fiery vapor, or sending forth an odorous smoke, or shooting horrible sparks from their eyes; whereby, not only wounds would be able to destroy them, but also the very sight would kill them through fear. Yet, even without these, they could have been killed with one breath, suffering persecution of their own making and being scattered by your spirit of virtue; but you have ordered all things in size and number and weight. Though many are strong, you alone always overcome. And who will withstand the strength of your arm? For, like a tiny grain on a scale, just so is the world before you, and like a drop dew before dawn, which descends upon the earth. But you are merciful to all, because you can do all, and you dismiss the sins of man because of repentance. For you love all things that are, and you hate nothing of the things you have made; for you would not have created or established anything that you hated. For how could anything endure, except by your will? Or what, having been called by you not to exist, would be preserved? Yet you spare all things, because they are yours, O Lord, who loves souls.​

Wisdom 11:18-27 (English translation of the Latin Vulgate)

 

[bling]

...

 

[bling]

So…is that a yes?

There is no: yes or no answer to a very general question, it is "yes" in some places and times and "no" in other places and times.
Not all our thoughts and actions are free will choices we make, but some are.
There are lots of places and times, "God can intervene", but there are times and in the person's mind when God will not intervene and thus it becomes man's free will choice.

 

[ARBITER01]

Peter answered him, “Though they all fall away because of you, I will never fall away.” Jesus said to him, “Truly, I tell you, this very night, before the rooster crows, you will deny me three times.” Peter said to him, “Even if I must die with you, I will not deny you!” And all the disciples said the same.
— Matthew 26:33-35

Could Peter have stuck to his guns and shown Jesus that He was wrong?

No.

Jesus was shown what Peter was ultimately going to do.

GOD knows the future.

 

[OnePlanPeopleDestiny]

Peter answered him, “Though they all fall away because of you, I will never fall away.” Jesus said to him, “Truly, I tell you, this very night, before the rooster crows, you will deny me three times.” Peter said to him, “Even if I must die with you, I will not deny you!” And all the disciples said the same.
— Matthew 26:33-35

Could Peter have stuck to his guns and shown Jesus that He was wrong?

Imagine, all the times Jesus - God incarnate, reminded His apostles that He was going to be arrested, killed, and raised from the grave, and yet the apostles still doubted. Contrast that with the faith of Abraham who was prepared to slaughter his son. Jesus knew Peter would deny Him, and there was nothing different Peter could have done. It was predestinated, just as was Jesus's death, burial, resurrection, and ascension. It was all part of the plan of God, and the plan of God will not be thwarted. That plan included Peter and the apostles not fighting to stop the crucifixion, and it included the apostles proclaiming the good news to the nations. All for the glory of God. Amen, amen.

 

[Hammster]

No.

Jesus was shown what Peter was ultimately going to do.

GOD knows the future.

I agree. Peter’s free will was not as free as some think.

 

[Guojing]

I agree. Peter’s free will was not as free as some think.

As others and myself have been trying to tell you, you are reasoning from a person living in the dimension of time.

If you are able to consider reasoning from someone who lives outside the time dimension, you will not be thinking that way.

 

[Hammster]

As others and myself have been trying to tell you, you are reasoning from a person living in the dimension of time.

If you are able to consider reasoning from someone who lives outside the time dimension, you will not be thinking that way.

I’ve point out why the “outside of time” argument doesn’t work here.