Could Mary have stopped God?

God already knew Mary would say yes through His foreknowledge, He knows her heart and her faith.

But He could have chose others, no problem.

No one not no one can stop the Plan of God. For His word is established forever. Mary saying yes has not bearing on the fact the it is in Christ alone that salvation comes...

IamAdopted said:

No one not no one can stop the Plan of God. For His word is established forever. Mary saying yes has not bearing on the fact the it is in Christ alone that salvation comes...

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For if she could have all fulfilled prophecy from OT scripture would have not been.

Uphill Battle said:

I have a sneaking suspicion who and who will not vote on this poll.

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Well, maybe I'll surprise you, then.

I also voted no. Our God would not be God if a human being's "no" could thwart His plan.

I think Iollain had the best answer:

Iollain said:

God already knew Mary would say yes through His foreknowledge, He knows her heart and her faith.

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That *doesn't* mean that "just any woman" would do. The Theotokos was perfectly prepared by God to take on this role in His plan of salvation for us.

As we Orthodox like to say - it's a Holy Mystery that we can't fully explain, and don't need to.

Mary

Uphill Battle said:

I wasn't thinking of Orthodox when I made that statement.

nor do I think "any woman would do." God chose Mary for a specific reason, that he alone knows.

However, much is made about the "yes" of Mary, as if God had asked her permission... something he has not done.

In fact, I don't think you can find a passage where he DOES ask permission.

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So you're saying God is a rapist?

No,

It's quite simple, God gives us all free will. He doesn't force things on us - even if He does sometines push very hard. See Paul on the Road to Damascus. But even then God didn't force Paul. He made clear to Paul that His will was not what Paul was doing, and then Paul repented.

Again with Adam and Eve. Why did God not force them to do what He wanted? Then we could have stayed in Eden and there'd have been no need for the whole mess of history and sin and suffering. But one person's CHOICE changed this plan.

No. God accepted Eve and Adam's decision to disobey and take the fruit. That meant that Eden was no longer the option for humanity and all Adams descendants. It was the same with Mary. The choice was genuine - just as genuine as with Adam and Eve. If Mary had copied Eve and gone her own way, that would be it. God didn't find "another Eve" to live in the garden. He wouldn't go searching after "another Mary." God may have foreknown the choices each would make, but the decision was not a con-trick.

Uphill Battle said:

well, we have our first, YES, Mary could have stopped God.

Staggering.

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Did Adam and Eve stop God?

Uphill Battle said:

well, we have our first, YES, Mary could have stopped God.

Staggering.

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That was my vote uphill battle.
Just kidding.
Had ya for a minute.

Maybe the voter will share their thoughts.

Check this out:

Psalm 95:3-6
3 For the LORD is a great God,
and a great King above all gods.
4 In his hand are the deep places of the earth:
the strength of the hills is his also.
5 The sea is his, and he made it:
and his hands formed the dry land.
6 O come, let us worship and bow down:
let us kneel before the LORD our maker.

Uphill Battle said:

I wasn't thinking of Orthodox when I made that statement.

nor do I think "any woman would do." God chose Mary for a specific reason, that he alone knows.

However, much is made about the "yes" of Mary, as if God had asked her permission... something he has not done.

In fact, I don't think you can find a passage where he DOES ask permission.

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I agree with Axion that Mary still had free will and had to permit God to make her the Theotokos. God never takes away our free will or forces Himself upon us.

But He would have found another way had Mary said "no." But then, the Orthodox believe that Christ would have come to us as fully God and fully man even if sin had never entered the world. There is more to the Incarnation than salvation from sin and death. But that's for another topic.

Mary

Mary of Bethany said:

I agree with Axion that Mary still had free will and had to permit God to make her the Theotokos. God never takes away our free will or forces Himself upon us.

But He would have found another way had Mary said "no." But then, the Orthodox believe that Christ would have come to us as fully God and fully man even if sin had never entered the world. There is more to the Incarnation than salvation from sin and death. But that's for another topic.

Mary

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Yup heard about that one..

Nope, if she had said no, God would have simply found someone else.

Mary of Bethany said:

I agree with Axion that Mary still had free will and had to permit God to make her the Theotokos. God never takes away our free will or forces Himself upon us.

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sounds like a winner to me too.

But He would have found another way had Mary said "no." But then, the Orthodox believe that Christ would have come to us as fully God and fully man even if sin had never entered the world. There is more to the Incarnation than salvation from sin and death. But that's for another topic.

Mary

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Interesting!

sunlover1 said:

That was my vote uphill battle.
Just kidding.
Had ya for a minute.

Maybe the voter will share their thoughts.

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I just noticed that you can see
who voted what.


Didn't realise that UB.
So if you're wondering what
in the world I was talking
about...

Have a blessed day.
sunlover

Does the fact that I now know the answer to a question posed in the past deny the free will of the one who answered? For instance, my wife said yes to me when I proposed to her, does it therefore follow that she was not free to have said no? God of course knew the answer to the question before it was even formed in my mind.

Knowledge of an outcome and free will are not incompatible in the way that seems to be pre-supposed in the question. If man has free will then Mary has to have been able to say either yes or no to God, the fact that God knew that the answer would be yes does not actually alter that fact. If it did we would be no more than puppets and God would be responsible for all our actions.

For instance, if Mary is not responsible for the consequences of her yes then logically Adam and Eve are not responsible for the consequences of their actions either, in which case of course we implicitly make God is the originator of sin. Alternatively, if you choose to see a no from Mary as the ability to thwart God then logically you must also conclude that Adam and Eve thwarted God at the time of the fall.

The OP is essentially saying that he is not comfortable with man being responsible for the actions he takes freely. I cannot agree with such a position, God always knew we would fall and he always knew he would send His son to redeem us by the incarnation but humanity had a choice in it's fall and by God's grace a choice in it's salvation. It is fitting that Man should be required to make a choice in the process of salvation just as he made a choice at the fall, that choice is our second chance. Mary was the first to make the choice that we are all called to make, indeed her choice is a prototype of the choice we are called to make. She is the first Christian, our first and perhaps most important example of what it is to say yes to Christ, she is symbolic of the Church, just as her flesh became His body so now is the Church called to be His body.

To honour Mary ( and the glorified saints or even relics or icons for that matter ) is to recognise that God works through humanity to achieve Man's salvation, He does not make a mere legal declaration that we are not guilty, rather, through His grace He effects real spiritual and physical changes in the nature of Man and ultimately all creation.

To honour Mary ( and the glorified saints or even relics or icons for that matter ) is to recognise that God works through humanity to achieve Man's salvation, He does not make a mere legal declaration that we are not guilty, rather, through His grace He effects real spiritual and physical changes in the nature of Man and ultimately all creation.

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To honor Any human for the working of God is not to be done. For it is not the human that has done the work But the Lord Himself.. We are declared not guilty when we come to Christ. For by Gods Grace can we even see our sins. The inner change of a person that has come to Christ is the working of the Holy Spirit in us. Therefore man can claim no glory or be given any honor for God is the Only one who has wrought this change in man.

To honor Any human for the working of God is not to be done. For it is not the human that has done the work But the Lord Himself.. We are declared not guilty when we come to Christ. For by Gods Grace can we even see our sins. The inner change of a person that has come to Christ is the working of the Holy Spirit in us. Therefore man can claim no glory or be given any honor for God is the Only one who has wrought this change in man.

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If understanding a post is beyond you it would probably be better not to project your ideas onto that post and in doing so bear false witness against the poster and their beliefs.