Could a woman priest…

[Erose]

It is not always that clear. Say RCC ordains transgender priest without realizing it. What are they going to do about it afterwards ?

Well it would be kind of difficult for a priest to dress like a woman if all his clothes are priestly wouldn't it?

 

[Erose]

To open a door,
you need a key.

I‘m looking for the key.

A key that isn't there in the Catholic Church. You are sniffing around for something you won't be able to find.

 

[Erose]

It boggles my brain why people keep asking (or demanding) for women to be priests, or in some cases Deacons, in the Catholic Church, and I would say for what reason? What would be the benefit?

People say this will increase the number of priests. Would it? Would it really? At this time in those dioceses that are having issues with Priestly numbers, which predominately are liberal by the way, if you cannot get young men to enter the seminaries what makes you think young women are going to do it? How much has it helped Anglican/Episcopalian churches? I believe they still have a clergy shortage.

People say that this will allow women at the table. They aren't already? Last I checked there is no ban on women serving on pastoral councils for either parishes or dioceses. Women today work in pretty much every ministry of the Church, so not sure where this would be better.

People say that women should be priests because they aren't allowed in leadership positions in the Church. Really? If this is your belief you don't pay much attention to the reality of what leadership positions are filled by women throughout our Church.

I could go on and on concerning this. And quite frankly this conversation doesn't really matter because like others have said "It isn't going to happen!"

This door is closed and will never be opened period.

 

[Homeowner]

Legality would have no bearing on it. They aren't men.

That is the trick is it not. How do you define a man ? Is it simply the Y chromosome and do the various churches really have procedures to determine that.

 

[Homeowner]

This door is closed and will never be opened period.

Never is a strong word.

I would guess there was a time when people thought that RCC would never acknowledge that Earth orbited Sun.

Time when people thought that RCC would never acknowledge any other option for creation of man other than that of literal interpretation of the genesis.

Times change. Things evolve. Even religions.

Evolution of religions actually makes sense as well as any other custom. If religion had a dogma of human sacrifice it would either die out or that particular dogma would be modified to spiritual sacrifice or whatnot when the society started to perceive human sacrifice as wrong.

What will Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, Muslims look like after 1000 years of constant technological, societal and economical change ?

 

[Erose]

Never is a strong word.

Yep. Get used to it when it comes to this matter.

I would guess there was a time when people thought that RCC would never acknowledge that Earth orbited Sun.

Funny. Use a fallacy to prove an argument. The Catholic Church has never taught as her doctrine the Sun revolved around the Earth. Science has, but the Church hasn't.

Time when people thought that RCC would never acknowledge any other option for creation of man other than that of literal interpretation of the genesis.

Again another bad argument on your part. The Church has always taught a)God created the universe out of nothing, and b) mankind comes from Adam and Eve. Both of which mind you science is getting much closer to then before.

Evolution of religions actually makes sense as well as any other custom. If religion had a dogma of human sacrifice it would either die out or that particular dogma would be modified to spiritual sacrifice or whatnot when the society started to perceive human sacrifice as wrong.

The reason why pagans no longer commit human sacrifices at least in civilized countries is because Christianity changed the overall mindset of humanity into accepted the dignity of human life. If Christianity never existed, human sacrifices would have happening at their same frequencies as they did before Christianity converted those countries. Oh and we would all still be running (literally) around in loin clothes and animal hides, wacking each other with swords and axes too.

 

[Love365]

Because Catholic priests can’t get married.

We need women priests to adopt children.
To be the next generation of Catholic priests.

 

[Homeowner]

If Christianity never existed, human sacrifices would have happening at their same frequencies as they did before Christianity converted those countries. Oh and we would all still be running (literally) around in loin clothes and animal hides, wacking each other with swords and axes too.

Bit ethnocentric.

You really think that other cultures like ancient dynasties of what is now China would still be running around in loin clothes and whacking each other with swords ? That for some reason they would not develop modern technologies simply because they had not heard of Jesus ?

 

[Erose]

Bit ethnocentric.

You really think that other cultures like ancient dynasties of what is now China would still be running around in loin clothes and whacking each other with swords ? That for some reason they would not develop modern technologies simply because they had not heard of Jesus ?

Yep. It is just a fact. The Judeo-Christian view of the Universe makes it rational, ie. learnable, consistent, with laws that can be known and used to make technologies that we have today. Chinese religion and for that matter all pagan religions did not believe that. That believed the universe was controlled by gods and spirits and how the universe acted was based upon the whelm of whatever god was in charge. Science would never have grown out of such a world view, and it didn't. Science truly prospered when the Judeo-Christian view of the universe became the accepted worldview.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Never is a strong word.

I would guess there was a time when people thought that RCC would never acknowledge that Earth orbited Sun.

Time when people thought that RCC would never acknowledge any other option for creation of man other than that of literal interpretation of the genesis.

Times change. Things evolve. Even religions.

Evolution of religions actually makes sense as well as any other custom. If religion had a dogma of human sacrifice it would either die out or that particular dogma would be modified to spiritual sacrifice or whatnot when the society started to perceive human sacrifice as wrong.

What will Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, Muslims look like after 1000 years of constant technological, societal and economical change ?

It's a word that works for Catholics and Orthodox. Your mileage may vary depending on which synod of Lutheranism you have picked.

And we never did have a doctrinal teaching on the orbits of Sun and Earth. Further, the 'literal' interpretation of Genesis was a Protestant thing that arose out of a Protestant reaction to Rationalism. Catholics never had that forced upon us.

 

[Homeowner]

how the universe acted was based upon the whelm of whatever god was in charge.

Lucky that Christians do not believe universe acting as if God was in charge....

Science as anything else ebbs and flows. Earlier in history places like Baghdad, Cordoba, Rome were centers of civilization and technology.

Abbasid Caliphate for one while Christian Europe was a collection of huts and cold stone castles. Before Arabs screwed it all up and chose a regressive theological paths.

If the anti technological voices sniff out US and Western technological leads while Asia rises should that somehow represent failure of Christianity on some level ?

 

[chevyontheriver]

Because Catholic priests can’t get married.

We need women priests to adopt children.
To be the next generation of Catholic priests.

The next generation of Catholic priests will be leaning a bit traditional, as has been the case for several years now.

 

[Love365]

The next generation of Catholic priests will be leaning a bit traditional, as has been the case for several years now.

The Catholic Church needs to be the bridge between
Right wing and Left wing.

You need both wings to fly.

 

[chevyontheriver]

The Catholic Church needs to be the bridge between
Right wing and Left wing.

You need both wings to fly.

This isn't political. It's about the more traditional faith being attractive and adherents of that faith being able to replicate themselves. The less traditional ones aren't doing so. It's just an empirical observation. Being a Modernist Catholic priest isn't appealing. More tradition minded seminaries are full. Less traditional ones get a few seminarians here or there. It's just how it is.

 

[Love365]

This isn't political. It's about the more traditional faith being attractive and adherents of that faith being able to replicate themselves. The less traditional ones aren't doing so. It's just an empirical observation. Being a Modernist Catholic priest isn't appealing. More tradition minded seminaries are full. Less traditional ones get a few seminarians here or there. It's just how it is.

If you have zero women priests
then atheism will spread in modern countries.

 

[Erose]

The Catholic Church needs to be the bridge between
Right wing and Left wing.

You need both wings to fly.

No that is not the case. The Church needs orthodoxy to fly. The “left” or “right” are not wings of the faith.

 

[Erose]

If you have zero women priests
then atheism will spread in modern countries.

That will spread no matter what. Modern man feels like it no longer needs God, when today he needs Him the most. Besides, we haven’t had female priestesses ever in the faith, and it did just fine for 2000 years.

 

[Erose]

Lucky that Christians do not believe universe acting as if God was in charge....

Science as anything else ebbs and flows. Earlier in history places like Baghdad, Cordoba, Rome were centers of civilization and technology.

Abbasid Caliphate for one while Christian Europe was a collection of huts and cold stone castles. Before Arabs screwed it all up and chose a regressive theological paths.

If the anti technological voices sniff out US and Western technological leads while Asia rises should that somehow represent failure of Christianity on some level ?

The Judeo-Christian worldview is the only religious view that believes God created the universe to be “orderly”, not “chaotic”. There is a reason why in only worldview that science has thrived, and in all others it has just sputtered.

 

[Paidiske]

It boggles my brain why people keep asking (or demanding) for women to be priests, or in some cases Deacons, in the Catholic Church, and I would say for what reason? What would be the benefit?

People say this will increase the number of priests. Would it? Would it really? At this time in those dioceses that are having issues with Priestly numbers, which predominately are liberal by the way, if you cannot get young men to enter the seminaries what makes you think young women are going to do it? How much has it helped Anglican/Episcopalian churches? I believe they still have a clergy shortage.

People say that this will allow women at the table. They aren't already? Last I checked there is no ban on women serving on pastoral councils for either parishes or dioceses. Women today work in pretty much every ministry of the Church, so not sure where this would be better.

People say that women should be priests because they aren't allowed in leadership positions in the Church. Really? If this is your belief you don't pay much attention to the reality of what leadership positions are filled by women throughout our Church.

Okay, so clearly I'm standing in a very particular place in this discussion, as a woman who is a priest.

But from that position, I'd say that to frame the argument in terms of "What would be the benefit?" is probably the wrong way to look at it. I mean, I think there are clear benefits to having women in the clergy, but we don't ordain someone simply because we see a benefit to ordaining them. We ordain someone because God has called them, and we have tested that call, and found that person suitable. Ultimately, it's the call of God, and not pragmatic arguments, which is the weightier matter.

Now, you might not believe that God calls women to this, but for those of us who've had that experience or who have been convinced of that vocation for others, that's not something to set aside lightly.

But that said, let me say a few things in more direct response to your points. What would be the benefit? I would point out that it changes clerical culture (so does having married priests, by the way, which is more open to Catholics) in really healthy ways. It becomes less of an echo chamber and a closed boys' club, and more open to the the breadth of life experience of the people in the church. It also lowers the rate of various forms of abuse, as women, on average, are much less likely to abuse people in their pastoral care.

What makes us think young women are going to answer the call? Ah, well. Hello. Here we are. When given the opportunity, we do. The Anglican church, as I experience it, doesn't have a clergy shortage, although it does have a problem with uneven distribution of clergy (it's hard to get clergy to move to rural and remote areas, for example).

And bluntly, no. In a church structure which is highly clericalised, where most decision-making and power and authority is concentrated in clerical roles (to a far greater degree than in many other churches) barring women from clerical roles does disempower and silence women in key areas.

And by the way, to refer to women clergy as "priestesses" is a highly inflammatory term, used as a slur with overtones of Pagan worship and the implication that their ministry is not valid/not equal to that of men. It's my experience that when reported mods generally treat it as a flame/goad, and I would suggest not using the term.

 

[chevyontheriver]

If you have zero women priests
then atheism will spread in modern countries.

We have had zero women priests from the start of Christianity, now almost 2000 years. Anglicans have had women priests now for about 40 years. Is atheism in retreat in countries that are predominantly Anglican and have lots of women priests? I don't think so. But you could show me the evidence if you have it.

From where I sit it looks like the Anglicans and Episcopalians are imploding, and the main remaining glimmers of hope are the more traditional dioceses or separatist Anglicans or African Anglicans who often say no to women priests.

I had another thought. Poland blew away communism with only male priests. So too in the rest of eastern Europe where communism is defeated. No women priests.