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Cosmic Background Radiation: Still Unassailable (a response)

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busterdog

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A quick one: If everything is flying apart, then why couldn't me measure the expansion of the Milky Way? Is the change (red shift?) too small to be measured accurately? Or the Milky Way is not expanding at this time?

No. 1: No, everything SHOULD be flying apart under the conventional model, but for the sprinkling of magic foo foo dust throughout the universe.

No. 2. Red shift is deemed too inaccurate to measure when it works against the conventional cosmology. Others, like Halton Arp, by measuring red shift show relative motion that cannot exist in a Big Bang model. Things are moving the wrong way.
 
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shernren

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No. 1: No, everything SHOULD be flying apart under the conventional model, but for the sprinkling of magic foo foo dust throughout the universe.

No. 2. Red shift is deemed too inaccurate to measure when it works against the conventional cosmology. Others, like Halton Arp, by measuring red shift show relative motion that cannot exist in a Big Bang model. Things are moving the wrong way.

1. The "magic foo foo dust" has been observed, friend. Bullet Cluster etc.

2. Please give concrete examples of when red-shifts have not been usable as data in measuring distances.

You have to be in the club to use them, otherwise, one finds a way to suggest that your use of them is inappropriate. As a YEC, I am not in the club, and so it seems fair to assume the worst about what I say. The club is for evolutionists.

"Not in the club", eh?

You're a lawyer, right? Imagine if some day, someone walks up to you and tells you that all lawyers are really in a giant conspiracy to take over the world by manipulating all constitutions of all countries at once. He produces several "papers" showing this happening, including Kurt Godel's classic demonstration that it is theoretically possible for the United States of America to become a constitutionally valid monarchy, and then expects to be told that he's a savior for bringing truth that nobody has ever seen before.

But a detailed examination with a few minutes of Googling shows that he's completely wrong.

When you confront him about his massive conspiracy theory concerning all lawyers in the world, he replies that "gee, you're being dismissive, aren't you? Well that's like the scent of blood in the water to me! Just you wait!" However, instead of producing more evidence to support his shaky theories, he talks less, and when he does talk, he lampoons lawyers as "sharks in suits who speak pointless Latin" and makes all manners of ridiculous lawyer jokes.

And finally when you ask him again for concrete evidence for his claims he shrugs his shoulders and says "I'm not in the club. Why should I bother?"

... there has never even been a club. (Remember, my offer to teach you enough math as is necessary to understand how pulsar data refutes c-decay is still standing. Would it stand if there was a "club" from which you were being excluded?) But given the paucity of evidence for your view, is it a surprise that your views are quickly beaten down - not with rhetoric, but with evidence? You complain that only those "in the club" get to use the papers - maybe, maybe, you get into the club by using the papers, which unfortunately just don't work with your position at all.

Disagreeing with physical reality sucks - but it's not our fault if you choose to.
 
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juvenissun

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The surface of a balloon has no geometrical center. The balloon itself as a 3-D structure has a center, but on its surface in 2-D there is no privileged point.

So you are suggesting that our universe is in a geometrical shape like a ball, but all galaxies reside only on/in the skin of the ball, but not in the interior of the ball. Hence our universe has not a center.

Then, a three-year old would ask: what's then in the interior of the ball? Yeah, what's in there? Where the universe had expanded through? Should it also be filled with background radiation?
 
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OdwinOddball

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So you are suggesting that our universe is in a geometrical shape like a ball, but all galaxies reside only on/in the skin of the ball, but not in the interior of the ball. Hence our universe has not a center.

Then, a three-year old would ask: what's then in the interior of the ball? Yeah, what's in there? Where the universe had expanded through? Should it also be filled with background radiation?

The 'center' of the universe is outside our observable dimensions. In realty there is no center, the universe is not a ball, but it is the closest analogy one can make using a physically recognizable object.

I recommend reading Brian Greene's 'The Elegant Universe'. It is very easy to pick up and understand(at least the earlier chapters) without needing a strong grounding in mathematics or physics. You should be able to find it at any larger local bookstore relatively cheap, or at your local library.
 
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shernren

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So you are suggesting that our universe is in a geometrical shape like a ball, but all galaxies reside only on/in the skin of the ball, but not in the interior of the ball. Hence our universe has not a center.

Then, a three-year old would ask: what's then in the interior of the ball? Yeah, what's in there? Where the universe had expanded through? Should it also be filled with background radiation?
In our balloon example, the 3rd dimension is a spatial dimension.

In the expansion of the universe, the 4th dimension is time.

Does this diagram help?

Universe_expansion2.png
 
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juvenissun

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In our balloon example, the 3rd dimension is a spatial dimension.

In the expansion of the universe, the 4th dimension is time.

Does this diagram help?

Universe_expansion2.png
Got it. Thank you.

I guess we could not find anything in the back time after the time passed. Ineresting.
 
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busterdog

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So you are suggesting that our universe is in a geometrical shape like a ball, but all galaxies reside only on/in the skin of the ball, but not in the interior of the ball. Hence our universe has not a center.

Then, a three-year old would ask: what's then in the interior of the ball? Yeah, what's in there? Where the universe had expanded through? Should it also be filled with background radiation?

Just understand that noise with some attributes of direction is a far cry from proof of its origin. The expected energies were supposedly very close to what was observed. That depends largely upon the eye of the beholder. Big bang is not the only theory out there. But, it is "out there."
 
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birdan

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So you are suggesting that our universe is in a geometrical shape like a ball, but all galaxies reside only on/in the skin of the ball, but not in the interior of the ball. Hence our universe has not a center.

Then, a three-year old would ask: what's then in the interior of the ball? Yeah, what's in there? Where the universe had expanded through? Should it also be filled with background radiation?
No, the surface of the balloon, with the dots all moving away from each other was an analogy. The balloon surface is only two dimensional, but the universe is three dimensional, and things are moving away from each other in three dimensions. Unfortunately the human mind has a heck of a time picturing the balloon analogy with the extra third dimension.
 
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shernren

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Just understand that noise with some attributes of direction is a far cry from proof of its origin. The expected energies were supposedly very close to what was observed. That depends largely upon the eye of the beholder. Big bang is not the only theory out there. But, it is "out there."

What "attributes of direction"? Do you even know what you're talking about any more?
 
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