Corroborating Genesis, Book of Jasher, and Stephen's Speech

[Calminian]

So are all ministering spirits YHWH, in your view?
Everytime the angels appear with a message from YHWH, are saying they are YHWH?

Absolutely not just this one particular being (the Angel of the LORD, who the Jews know as the Angel of His Presence, or the Angel of His Face) called the Malach-YHVH in the Hebrew. "THE" Angel of the LORD is not the same as "an" angel of the Lord (referring to arch-angels, Cherubim, Seraphim, etc.,). The Angel of the LORD is a theophany (some would say a Christophany is more specific).

Paul

You're exactly right. Indeed this particular messenger of Yahweh is said to clearly be God. This may contradict Jasher, but Genesis is very clear about it.

After speaking to The Angel about Sodom,

Gen. 17:22 Then He finished talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.​

God (elohiym) went up. That means's God was there physically speaking with Abraham.

The bottom line is always the same. We can either trust scripture or not trust it. Satan will always tempt us with reasons not to trust scripture. Some are tempted by naturalistic (non-miraculous) theories of origins. Others by the lure of the world's pleasures. YSM has been tempted with extra biblical books and unfortunately has believed them. And once people make their stand, it always seems very difficult for them to abandon it.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

re-organized below

 

[yeshuasavedme]

You're exactly right. Indeed this particular messenger of Yahweh is said to clearly be God. This may contradict Jasher, but Genesis is very clear about it.

After speaking to The Angel about Sodom,

Gen. 17:22 Then He finished talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.​

God (elohiym) went up. That means's God was there physically speaking with Abraham.

The bottom line is always the same. We can either trust scripture or not trust it. Satan will always tempt us with reasons not to trust scripture. Some are tempted by naturalistic (non-miraculous) theories of origins. Others by the lure of the world's pleasures. YSM has been tempted with extra biblical books and unfortunately has believed them. And once people make their stand, it always seems very difficult for them to abandon it.

Your pointing finger has three pointing back to you.
Now learn a lesson from the Word of God on the word "god" plural form, and that the elohym are sons of Elohym, and created angels all through the Word:
From blb.org concordance on Psalm 82:
אלהים 'elohiym
standeth natsab
congregation עדה `edah
of the mighty; h410 אל 'el
he judgeth שפט shaphat
among קרב qereb
the gods. h430 אלהים 'elohiym

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Your pointing finger has three pointing back to you.
Now learn a lesson from the Word of God on the word "god" plural form, and that the elohym are sons of Elohym, and created angels all through the Word:
From blb.org concordance on Psalm 82:
אלהים 'elohiym
standeth natsab
congregation עדה `edah
of the mighty; h410 אל 'el
he judgeth שפט shaphat
among קרב qereb
the gods. h430 אלהים 'elohiym

אלהים 'elohiym
1) (plural)
a) rulers, judges
b) divine ones
c) angels
d) gods

From blb.org concordance

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Yeah, you would think that if Moses' authored this Upright Book, there would be a copy somewhere. ...

Josephus said it was laid up in the temple, but Josephus never read it because he contradicted it in his own writings using corrupted stories of things that happened before his time -but he wrote of his own time quite well, and liberally sprinkled his lessons to learn from them by his opinions of them.
You know when Babylon invaded, Israel lost all their books at that time that were laid up in the temple, for they were burned.
Esdras says he and a group of men miraculously re-wrote them, and hid 70 [?] of them for the last days.

I have a copy of the Upright Record, and here is an online link to a copy: Book of Jasher Bible - SpeedBible by johnhurt.com

 

[pshun2404]

You're exactly right. Indeed this particular messenger of Yahweh is said to clearly be God. This may contradict Jasher, but Genesis is very clear about it.

After speaking to The Angel about Sodom,

Gen. 17:22 Then He finished talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.​

God (elohiym) went up. That means's God was there physically speaking with Abraham.

The bottom line is always the same. We can either trust scripture or not trust it. Satan will always tempt us with reasons not to trust scripture. Some are tempted by naturalistic (non-miraculous) theories of origins. Others by the lure of the world's pleasures. YSM has been tempted with extra biblical books and unfortunately has believed them. And once people make their stand, it always seems very difficult for them to abandon it.

That's why He is said to be "the visible image of the invisible God" and the brightness of His glory, the express image of His hypostasis.

Without controversy, great is the mystery of our religion...Theos (God) was manifest in the flesh...this is all throughout the Bible.

Paul

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I think you guys are getting off on something that is just too big for this thread.

Was Jesus Christ come in flesh of angels before He was come incarnate -in human being flesh? -that seems to be where Calminian and psun2404 are boxing themselves into a corner of, in the above, and they are not going to be able to get out of that corner without a lot of outside the doctrine of the Word heretical nonsense.

 

[ChetSinger]

I think you guys are getting off on something that is just too big for this thread.

Was Jesus Christ come in flesh of angels before He was come incarnate -in human being flesh? -that seems to be where Calminian and psun2404 are boxing themselves into a corner of, in the above, and they are not going to be able to get out of that corner without a lot of outside the doctrine of the Word heretical nonsense.

I think the theophany of the pre-incarnate Word is a subject too big for this thread.

It is a real and fascinating (to me) subject, yeshuasavedme, discussed at length by many scholars including church fathers, but I think it belongs in one of the theology forums.

 

[Calminian]

I think you guys are getting off on something that is just too big for this thread.

Was Jesus Christ come in flesh of angels before He was come incarnate -in human being flesh? -that seems to be where Calminian and psun2404...

Angel is merely an english transliteration, and doesn't appear in the hebrew text. The word is messenger (malawk). And yes, the messenger of YHWH is God. He can't be anything else. No, it is not an angel. Malawk has other meanings.

I'm not following why this is off-topic, though. Scripture teaches that the messenger of YHWH is God. Jasher doesn't pick this up. That's seems to be a corroborative problem. What am I missing?

Though I do not doubt your expertise on heretical nonsense.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I already posted the passages from Jasher on the subject, and they do not refute one another, but rather compliment one another.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7734312-5/#post62734029

Jasher 18:4 And the Lord appeared to him in the plain of Mamre, and sent three of his ministering angels to visit him, and he was sitting at the door of the tent, and he lifted his eyes and saw, and lo three men were coming from a distance, and he rose up and ran to meet them, and he bowed down to them and brought them into his house.

nd he said to them, If now I have found favor in your sight, turn in and eat a morsel of bread; and he pressed them, and they turned in and he gave them water and they washed their feet, and he placed them under a tree at the door of the tent.
And Abraham ran and took a calf, tender and good, and he hastened to kill it, and gave it to his servant Eliezer to dress.

And Abraham came to Sarah into the tent, and he said to her, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it and make cakes to cover the pot containing the meat, and she did so.
And Abraham hastened and brought before them butter and milk, beef and mutton, and gave it before them to eat before the flesh of the calf was sufficiently done, and they did eat.

And when they had done eating one of them said to him, I will return to thee according to the time of life, and Sarah thy wife shall have a son.

Genesis 18:1
Now the LORD appeared to him by the *oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.
And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw [them], he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
and said, "*My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not *pass Your servant by.
"Please let a little water be brought and wash your feet, and *rest yourselves under the tree;
And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.
So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah, and said, "*Quickly, prepare three *measures of fine flour, knead it and make bread cakes."
Abraham also ran to the herd, and took a tender and *choice calf and gave it to the servant, and he hurried to prepare it.
He took curds and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and placed it before them; and he was standing by them under the tree *as they ate.

And they said unto him, Where [is] Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.
He said, "I will surely return to you *at this time next year; and behold, Sarah your wife will have a son." And Sarah was listening at the tent door, which was behind him....

Then the men rose up from there, and looked down toward Sodom; and Abraham was walking with them to send them off.
The LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do,...
​

Look at the passages. -So where is the blasphemy????

...
And yes, the subject of when and where there is a pre-incarnate seeing of the Christ in angel flesh -that is not a subject for this thread and it has been debated extensively by the Church.....

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Jasher may actually be the more instructional and less confusing by its instruction already, in that the ministering angels come in the name of YHWH and act in the name of YHWH...so in Jasher the Lord appears to Abraham and all three ministering angels men/ish speak for the Lord.
-and in Genesis he calls them adonai -all three of them!

Then the Genesis account says; YHWH said "...", implying the ministering angels spoke for YHWH; and in Genesis 19, , YHWH on earth calls down fire and brimstone from YHWH in heaven

Jasher 18:4 And the Lord appeared to him in the plain of Mamre, and sent three of his ministering angels to visit him, and he was sitting at the door of the tent, and he lifted his eyes and saw, and lo three men were coming from a distance, and he rose up and ran to meet them, and he bowed down to them and brought them into his house.

Genesis 18:1
Now the LORD appeared to him by the *oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.
And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men/ish stood by him: and when he saw [them], he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
and said, "*My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not *pass Your servant by.

In Jasher the Lord appeared to Abraham when three men/ish came from the Lord as His ministering spirits.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

The Septuagint and the Masoretic do not agree, so I wouldn't be basing doctrine of refuting the history book, Jasher, on the Masoretic which we have no ancient copies of, and it is only from the late middle ages; and also, the Septuagint was quoted 91% of the time by the NT writers when quoting the old Testament -so I have read!

http://www.ecmarsh.com/lxx/Genesis/

Chapter 18
18:1 And God appeared to him by the oak of Mambre, as he sat by the door of his tent at noon. 2 And he lifted up his eyes and beheld, and lo! three men stood before him; and having seen them he ran to meet them from the door of his tent, and did obeisance to the ground. 3 And he said, Lord, if indeed I have found grace in thy sight, pass not by thy servant. 4 Let water now be brought, and let them wash your feet, and do ye refresh yourselves under the tree. 5 And I will bring bread, and ye shall eat, and after this ye shall depart on your journey, on account of which refreshment ye have turned aside to your servant. And he said, So do, as thou hast said. 6 And Abraam hasted to the tent to Sarrha, and said to her, Hasten, and knead three measures of fine flour, and make cakes. 7 And Abraam ran to the kine, and took a young calf, tender and good, and gave it to his servant, and he hasted to dress it. 8 And he took butter and milk, and the calf which he had dressed; and he set them before them, and they did eat, and he stood by them under the tree.
9 And he said to him, Where is Sarrha thy wife? And he answered and said, Behold! in the tent. 10 And he said, I will return and come to thee according to this period seasonably, and Sarrha thy wife shall have a son; and Sarrha heard at the door of the tent, being behind him. 11 And Abraam and Sarrha were old, advanced in days, and the custom of women ceased with Sarrha. 12 And Sarrha laughed in herself, saying, The thing has not as yet happened to me, even until now, and my lord is old. 13 And the Lord said to Abraam, Why is it that Sarrha has laughed in herself, saying, Shall I then indeed bear? but I am grown old. 14 Shall anything be impossible with the Lord? At this time I will return to thee seasonably, and Sarrha shall have a son. 15 But Sarrha denied, saying, I did not laugh, for she was afraid. And he said to her, Nay, but thou didst laugh.
16 And the men having risen up from thence looked towards Sodom and Gomorrha. And Abraam went with them, attending them on their journey. 17 And the Lord said, Shall I hide from Abraam my servant what things I intend to do? 18 But Abraam shall become a great and populous nation, and in him shall all the nations of the earth be blest. 19 For I know that he will order his sons, and his house after him, and they will keep the ways of the Lord, to do justice and judgment, that the Lord may bring upon Abraam all things whatsoever he has spoken to him. 20 And the Lord said, The cry of Sodom and Gomorrha has been increased towards me, and their sins are very great. 21 I will therefore go down and see, if they completely correspond with the cry which comes to me, and if not, that I may know.


I already posted the passages from Jasher on the subject, and they do not refute one another, but rather compliment one another.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7734312-5/#post62734029

Jasher 18:4 And the Lord appeared to him in the plain of Mamre, and sent three of his ministering angels to visit him, and he was sitting at the door of the tent, and he lifted his eyes and saw, and lo three men were coming from a distance, and he rose up and ran to meet them, and he bowed down to them and brought them into his house.

nd he said to them, If now I have found favor in your sight, turn in and eat a morsel of bread; and he pressed them, and they turned in and he gave them water and they washed their feet, and he placed them under a tree at the door of the tent.
And Abraham ran and took a calf, tender and good, and he hastened to kill it, and gave it to his servant Eliezer to dress.

And Abraham came to Sarah into the tent, and he said to her, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it and make cakes to cover the pot containing the meat, and she did so.
And Abraham hastened and brought before them butter and milk, beef and mutton, and gave it before them to eat before the flesh of the calf was sufficiently done, and they did eat.

And when they had done eating one of them said to him, I will return to thee according to the time of life, and Sarah thy wife shall have a son.

Genesis 18:1
Now the LORD appeared to him by the *oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.
And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw [them], he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
and said, "*My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not *pass Your servant by.
"Please let a little water be brought and wash your feet, and *rest yourselves under the tree;
And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.
So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah, and said, "*Quickly, prepare three *measures of fine flour, knead it and make bread cakes."
Abraham also ran to the herd, and took a tender and *choice calf and gave it to the servant, and he hurried to prepare it.
He took curds and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and placed it before them; and he was standing by them under the tree *as they ate.

And they said unto him, Where [is] Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.
He said, "I will surely return to you *at this time next year; and behold, Sarah your wife will have a son." And Sarah was listening at the tent door, which was behind him....

Then the men rose up from there, and looked down toward Sodom; and Abraham was walking with them to send them off.
The LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do,...
​

Look at the passages. -So where is the blasphemy????

...
And yes, the subject of when and where there is a pre-incarnate seeing of the Christ in angel flesh -that is not a subject for this thread and it has been debated extensively by the Church.....

 

[Calminian]

...And yes, the subject of when and where there is a pre-incarnate seeing of the Christ in angel flesh -that is not a subject for this thread and it has been debated extensively by the Church.....

Well that's one way to win an argument. Just consider everything that challenges the OP to be off topic.

I'm still confused as to why this is off-topic, but I'll let the subject go as you request.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

The accusation by Calminian was that Jasher and Genesis do not agree, but I have already shown that they indeed correlate very well.
Note the added information that the Septuagint agrees with Jasher and with Genesis [but in different words and the same difference as in Jasher and Genesis Masoretic], and confirms that the Genesis account in the English from the Masoretic is also not different from either of those, just a matter of semantics, but not of different doctrine.

Jasher may actually be the more instructional and less confusing by its instruction already, in that the ministering angels come in the name of YHWH and act in the name of YHWH...so in Jasher the Lord appears to Abraham and all three ministering angels men/ish speak for the Lord.
-and in Genesis he calls them adonai -all three of them!

Then the Genesis account says; YHWH said "...", implying the ministering angels spoke for YHWH; and in Genesis 19, , YHWH on earth calls down fire and brimstone from YHWH in heaven

Jasher 18:4 And the Lord appeared to him in the plain of Mamre, and sent three of his ministering angels to visit him, and he was sitting at the door of the tent, and he lifted his eyes and saw, and lo three men were coming from a distance, and he rose up and ran to meet them, and he bowed down to them and brought them into his house.

Genesis 18:1
Now the LORD appeared to him by the *oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.
And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men/ish stood by him: and when he saw [them], he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
and said, "*My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not *pass Your servant by.

In Jasher the Lord appeared to Abraham when three men/ish came from the Lord as His ministering spirits.

The Septuagint and the Masoretic do not agree, so I wouldn't be basing doctrine of refuting the history book, Jasher, on the Masoretic which we have no ancient copies of, and it is only from the late middle ages; and also, the Septuagint was quoted 91% of the time by the NT writers when quoting the old Testament -so I have read!

Genesis

Chapter 18
18:1 And God appeared to him by the oak of Mambre, as he sat by the door of his tent at noon. 2 And he lifted up his eyes and beheld, and lo! three men stood before him; and having seen them he ran to meet them from the door of his tent, and did obeisance to the ground. 3 And he said, Lord, if indeed I have found grace in thy sight, pass not by thy servant. 4 Let water now be brought, and let them wash your feet, and do ye refresh yourselves under the tree. 5 And I will bring bread, and ye shall eat, and after this ye shall depart on your journey, on account of which refreshment ye have turned aside to your servant. And he said, So do, as thou hast said. 6 And Abraam hasted to the tent to Sarrha, and said to her, Hasten, and knead three measures of fine flour, and make cakes. 7 And Abraam ran to the kine, and took a young calf, tender and good, and gave it to his servant, and he hasted to dress it. 8 And he took butter and milk, and the calf which he had dressed; and he set them before them, and they did eat, and he stood by them under the tree.
9 And he said to him, Where is Sarrha thy wife? And he answered and said, Behold! in the tent. 10 And he said, I will return and come to thee according to this period seasonably, and Sarrha thy wife shall have a son; and Sarrha heard at the door of the tent, being behind him. 11 And Abraam and Sarrha were old, advanced in days, and the custom of women ceased with Sarrha. 12 And Sarrha laughed in herself, saying, The thing has not as yet happened to me, even until now, and my lord is old. 13 And the Lord said to Abraam, Why is it that Sarrha has laughed in herself, saying, Shall I then indeed bear? but I am grown old. 14 Shall anything be impossible with the Lord? At this time I will return to thee seasonably, and Sarrha shall have a son. 15 But Sarrha denied, saying, I did not laugh, for she was afraid. And he said to her, Nay, but thou didst laugh.
16 And the men having risen up from thence looked towards Sodom and Gomorrha. And Abraam went with them, attending them on their journey. 17 And the Lord said, Shall I hide from Abraam my servant what things I intend to do? 18 But Abraam shall become a great and populous nation, and in him shall all the nations of the earth be blest. 19 For I know that he will order his sons, and his house after him, and they will keep the ways of the Lord, to do justice and judgment, that the Lord may bring upon Abraam all things whatsoever he has spoken to him. 20 And the Lord said, The cry of Sodom and Gomorrha has been increased towards me, and their sins are very great. 21 I will therefore go down and see, if they completely correspond with the cry which comes to me, and if not, that I may know.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Well that's one way to win an argument. Just consider everything that challenges the OP to be off topic.

I'm still confused as to why this is off-topic, but I'll let the subject go as you request.

Theophanies is off topic for this thread -now you know that, I think, and why would you say you don't?

 

[Calminian]

Theophanies is off topic for this thread -now you know that, I think, and why would you say you don't?

Oh, well since you asked:

Because it's an arbitrary rule you came up with to defend the book of Jasher from some very clear contradictions it has with Genesis.

 

[Calminian]

The accusation by Calminian was that Jasher and Genesis do not agree, but I have already shown that they indeed correlate very well......

LOL! You're joking right?

I've talked with a lot of Jasher proponents, but none as inept as you. You keep saying the same things over and over, but never justify them. I'm still waiting for a non-definsive explanation of your claims about this book.

And I'm probably going to be the most open-minded person you'll find on this board regarding this topic.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Calminian,
You have been been answered and I have refuted your claims again and again.
What your problem is, I do not know, but when you come on this thread, it should be to reply to the specific replies I make to refute your claims, and not to continue to insult me and make false accusations against me by trying to set yourself up as superior in knowledge and understanding and sole judge of all true knowledge.

 

[Calminian]

Calminian,
You have been been answered and I have refuted your claims again and again.......

ROTFL. You're killing me. Tell another one!

 

[yeshuasavedme]

ROTFL. You're killing me. Tell another one!

The wisdom of the prudent [is] to understand his way: but the folly of fools is deceit.